SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread VII

[Simon_Jester]

"You are entering/leaving the Centralist Zone" will be seen for years to come....

Only one problem.

The Shinra, Klavostanis, Chamarrans, and Wobblies are all placed to stage their version of the blockade of Berlin to keep you from maintaining control if it displeases them to let you do so. And you are in a very poor position to stage the Berlin airlift or its equivalent.

With or without my modhat on, I'm not fundamentally opposed to the existence of a Centralist occupation zone. But on a friendly basis, I advise you to tread more carefully here than you have elsewhere in the past.

[White Haven]

'Suddenly, Karlacks!'

'What--I don't--WHAT ARE YOU DOING ALL THE WAY OVER HERE!?'

[KlavoHunter]

“And from my sources, they may not be alone.” Field Marshall Homura Akemi added. “Elements in our own coalition may be vectoring towards us as we speak. So the channels to the space core-spinward should be considered unsafe as well.”

“Pray tell, Field Marshall, how did you discover their treachery?” Rus Komnenos asked, and then gulped down a jeweled skull-chalice of noxious tsvagna.

“They left their minds unguarded and open,” Akemi replied tersely, unwilling to divulge the sacrifices that had to be done. “And it’s not much of a stretch after your little party at the Planetoid, Warmaster. We also didn’t earn ourselves any favors after Earth... but it was a strategic necessity. Too bad not all of them can stomach what needs to be done.”

Who would be so stupid as to lower their anti-ESPer defenses while in the vicinity of the EYE OF TERROR? At a time when those same defenses are in fact probably the recipients of emergency power?

Or are we all just plain helpless in the face of Haruhiist super-Espers who can read Klavostani minds before they are even in the same solar system? Long-range ESPer powers have been banned, you know. I tried to use them and I was told NO by the moderator staff. Yet...

Communication was strictly through psykery and code. And everyone was guided by the light of the God Emperor.

Just because I don't have super-Espers doesn't mean that I don't have some Damn Good ESPers on my flagships for important, major fleet actions where people think it's cute to get a cheap win by crawling into my people's heads. Same as just because AIs aren't really my big thing, doesn't mean that I don't have some of -them- crawling around my ships' computers to forcefully kick out anyone who tries that.


For good measure:

Of course, nothing could happen if the Coalition did not make some agreement with the other coalition, now occupying Xena. This was the thought uppermost in Yeslah’s mind when he entered his flagship’s observation lounge. Besides the identity of the men who wanted to speak with him. He could already sense their presence, in fact, but not their minds. Something was up. He walked up to them, and realized who they were.

In addition to the starship-grade powered anti-esper fields, the military-grade turbanputers on the heads of my senior officers include anti-esper defenses strong enough to hold off a fairly powerful Centralist ESPer at point-blank range.

[KlavoHunter]

Also, since it is vital to say this as early as possible, what is entailed by "Bringing the Byzantines to Justice" would, by *OUR* envisioning, be the surrender of the Byzantine fleet, and its temporary internment while the Imperium makes concessions, and then its release back to the Imperium. Not the complete and utter destruction of the fleet.

*THAT* would come if you choose to refuse and run like a thief in the night, as your split-into-6-fleets option makes entirely more likely. (A split-into-6-fleets option that doesn't even make sense unless you know in advance a Combined Fleet is going to chase you down, the Combined Dual God-Empires fleet would overmatch any single fresh fleet.)



Take the first option, exploit the civilized 'weakness' of us fools, it will cost you less in precious battleships and soldiers than fighting like a cornered animal.

[Dark Hellion]

I would like the moderator to take into consideration also the various space-time and perhaps sensory anomalies that may occur as a result of an entire solar system being devoured by a non-standard interdimensional event.

I have to object strongly to the use off-map space as an escape path. I know that Maya and me did use it earlier but that was for a purely self-contained diplomatic meeting and the Refuge ship position had no strategic relevance to the game at large; it was a use of "unreal space" to physically meet since there was the whole damn K-Zone in the way. This use of off-map space is an attempt to skirt the fact that the HaruByz fleet is surrounded by using sectors that no one is in because for the most part they don't even exist. It smacks of rules lawyering and munchkinism because you are using a thin technicality as if it was a regular part of the game rules. It also reeks of bad-sportsmanship.

It seems like there was an expectation that IC actions would not have IC consequences because of OoC reasoning. Regardless of how cool someone thinks a storyline is there is a collaborative element that must be maintained and other players should be allowed the ability to realistically respond even if it goes against the original intentions of the storyline. Moreover, in order for the framework of the overall game to work nations must be assumed to be characters in their own right and to react in general agreement with their respective character and not to simply bow to the demands of the plot. Yes, nations are our avatars through which we tell our stories but we must respect the personalities we have given them even if it means we weaken our position competitively. There is no prize for winning and no shame in losing so I suggest that we should all swallow our pride and attempt to reach some compromise.

Now assuming that the off-road adventure plan is approved I still have one IC contention to bring up. This path will require you to go in an extremely round-about manner because otherwise the Emissaries will expectedly have a hostile reaction to a large naval group approaching within a sector of their territory from a path outside the general galactic arm and you will have to spend a very long time within general striking distance of their fleets. However, since the Emissaries don't actually care about the atrocities committed they would be willing to secretly negotiate passage through these areas if proper compensation was offered but there are numerous IC problems both in how either of the HaruByz forces would go about contacting the Emissaries and whether the Byzantines would be willing to in the first place.

[Simon_Jester]

I will make a fairly comprehensive modpost on all this soon; I am very tired and it will take me some time. Please nobody go apeshit in the interim. Klavo, DH, your concerns are noted.

[Shroom Man 777]

So the universe just ends where the map does? I sent my bragfleet near Chamarran space by flying through off-map portions too. We've had two nations that technically exist off the map, Maya's Orange Free and Formless' Bermuda Tetrahedrons. Is there a Star Trek-like space boundary preventing folks from traveling off the grid? How is that bad sportsmanship?

[Darkevilme]

I always thought the trouble with going off the map is the cliche 'here be monsters'. Ie there's a chance you'll be grappled out of hyperspace by a kraken and not have ROCK STRONGGO to save you from it.

[Tanasinn]

It'd be easy to explain as the limits of space as we (the civilizations in the game) know it. Yes, you COULD go off-map, but you'd be trailblazing - which is slow and potentially dangerous. It offers you little advantage in a hot pursuit in that manner.

[Shroom Man 777]

Who would be so stupid as to lower their anti-ESPer defenses while in the vicinity of the EYE OF TERROR? At a time when those same defenses are in fact probably the recipients of emergency power?

Or are we all just plain helpless in the face of Haruhiist super-Espers who can read Klavostani minds before they are even in the same solar system? Long-range ESPer powers have been banned, you know. I tried to use them and I was told NO by the moderator staff. Yet...

If there was an anti-Byzantium plan before Downfall, then they could've gotten whiff of that. If there was no anti-Byzantium plan before Downfall at all, then the Haruhiists won't have anything to get a whiff off.

If not, then perhaps intel assets seeing huge ass fleet mobilizations? If the Chamarrans-Klavostanis announce to their allies that they're pulling out of AC/Xena to go hunt some Byzantines, then it could be passed down to em.

And if failing that, there's also “And it’s not much of a stretch after your little party at the Planetoid, Warmaster. We also didn’t earn ourselves any favors after Earth..."

*THAT* would come if you choose to refuse and run like a thief in the night, as your split-into-6-fleets option makes entirely more likely.

The Chamarrans were already firing at the Byzantines (who didn't even return fire) in Sol. So the Byzantines might be a little bit wary of that. They might be under the assumption that the cats will simply resume hurling missiles at them once they meet again.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

Look, before everyone else goes apeshit, just let me say that Homura's intel on a possible Coalition reprisal for the Byzantine attack on Sol was ultimately based on a severely flawed interpretation of events, specifically those involving the IUW's possible involvement or lack thereof at Sol. For that, I apologize. Now, know that I'm working on a way to retcon the thing.

[Simon_Jester]

I have to object strongly to the use off-map space as an escape path. I know that Maya and me did use it earlier but that was for a purely self-contained diplomatic meeting and the Refuge ship position had no strategic relevance to the game at large; it was a use of "unreal space" to physically meet since there was the whole damn K-Zone in the way. This use of off-map space is an attempt to skirt the fact that the HaruByz fleet is surrounded by using sectors that no one is in because for the most part they don't even exist. It smacks of rules lawyering and munchkinism because you are using a thin technicality as if it was a regular part of the game rules. It also reeks of bad-sportsmanship.

I'm sorry, DH, but I'm gonig to have to say that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with what the Imperial fleet is doing. They're taking a circuitous route to get home, because all the short paths lead past people who might well attack them, or at least command them to heave to at gunpoint.

This has risks and drawbacks, among them that it gives people like the Chamarrans and Klavostanis more time to position a fleet to 'head them off at the pass.' But...

[modhat on]

I don't think this is unusually poor sportsmanship or rules lawyering. The map has a finite size because we need to display a finite-sized map, not because there is a magic wall in space there. Off-map polities exist and have been referenced in a number of minor storylines. The edges of the map are a convenience, and mark the rough boundaries of 'densely human-settled space,' but that's about it.

It seems like there was an expectation that IC actions would not have IC consequences because of OoC reasoning. Regardless of how cool someone thinks a storyline is there is a collaborative element that must be maintained and other players should be allowed the ability to realistically respond even if it goes against the original intentions of the storyline.

Insofar as this has been denied, I'm trying to work with the people who have denied that ability to respond, to fix matters so that others do get to respond.

Flying 'off the edge of the map' is not a way to get free immunity from interception by hostile fleets. It's really that simple. It's just a good way to avoid having to fly very close to those fleets.

Now assuming that the off-road adventure plan is approved I still have one IC contention to bring up. This path will require you to go in an extremely round-about manner because otherwise the Emissaries will expectedly have a hostile reaction to a large naval group approaching within a sector of their territory from a path outside the general galactic arm and you will have to spend a very long time within general striking distance of their fleets. However, since the Emissaries don't actually care about the atrocities committed they would be willing to secretly negotiate passage through these areas if proper compensation was offered but there are numerous IC problems both in how either of the HaruByz forces would go about contacting the Emissaries and whether the Byzantines would be willing to in the first place.

Feel free to talk to Shinn and Fin about this. It's your business, not mine, for the time being.

[Beowulf]

I disagree with the contention that going off the map is impossible. We've already had it happen successfully (witness the Grand Dominion and Shepistan's search for Amplitur). You may not have it mapped, and so may encounter shoals that you weren't expecting. However, the same applies to the pursing force, as they won't be close enough to follow exactly the same path as the pursued.

I don't think the problem with going off the map is "here be monsters" so much as "We have no clue what's out there." It had been my understanding that the height of the map was appoximately the width of the galactic arm we're in. As such, most of what's rimward or coreward of the map is empty space.

I do disagree with the ability to rip plans out of character's heads which not only aren't in the same room, but are actually in a space ship light minutes away, with the aforementioned anti-ESP defenses that are fairly standard on most warships at this point.

[Lonestar]

I have to object strongly to the use off-map space as an escape path. I know that Maya and me did use it earlier but that was for a purely self-contained diplomatic meeting and the Refuge ship position had no strategic relevance to the game at large; it was a use of "unreal space" to physically meet since there was the whole damn K-Zone in the way. This use of off-map space is an attempt to skirt the fact that the HaruByz fleet is surrounded by using sectors that no one is in because for the most part they don't even exist. It smacks of rules lawyering and munchkinism because you are using a thin technicality as if it was a regular part of the game rules. It also reeks of bad-sportsmanship.

It seems like there was an expectation that IC actions would not have IC consequences because of OoC reasoning. Regardless of how cool someone thinks a storyline is there is a collaborative element that must be maintained and other players should be allowed the ability to realistically respond even if it goes against the original intentions of the storyline. Moreover, in order for the framework of the overall game to work nations must be assumed to be characters in their own right and to react in general agreement with their respective character and not to simply bow to the demands of the plot. Yes, nations are our avatars through which we tell our stories but we must respect the personalities we have given them even if it means we weaken our position competitively. There is no prize for winning and no shame in losing so I suggest that we should all swallow our pride and attempt to reach some compromise.

Now assuming that the off-road adventure plan is approved I still have one IC contention to bring up. This path will require you to go in an extremely round-about manner because otherwise the Emissaries will expectedly have a hostile reaction to a large naval group approaching within a sector of their territory from a path outside the general galactic arm and you will have to spend a very long time within general striking distance of their fleets. However, since the Emissaries don't actually care about the atrocities committed they would be willing to secretly negotiate passage through these areas if proper compensation was offered but there are numerous IC problems both in how either of the HaruByz forces would go about contacting the Emissaries and whether the Byzantines would be willing to in the first place.

I've been having my guys "Off map"(waaaaaaaaaaay off map) for several months now. Deal with it.

[Ryan Thunder]

I've been having my guys "Off map"(waaaaaaaaaaay off map) for several months now. Deal with it.

You haven't been fleeing from PCs.

[Simon_Jester]

I disagree with the contention that going off the map is impossible. We've already had it happen successfully (witness the Grand Dominion and Shepistan's search for Amplitur). You may not have it mapped, and so may encounter shoals that you weren't expecting. However, the same applies to the pursing force, as they won't be close enough to follow exactly the same path as the pursued.

I don't think the problem with going off the map is "here be monsters" so much as "We have no clue what's out there." It had been my understanding that the height of the map was appoximately the width of the galactic arm we're in. As such, most of what's rimward or coreward of the map is empty space.

That's about the size of it, yeah.

I do disagree with the ability to rip plans out of character's heads which not only aren't in the same room, but are actually in a space ship light minutes away, with the aforementioned anti-ESP defenses that are fairly standard on most warships at this point.

That part was all the result of a misunderstanding between Shinn and Ryan. It is now being worked out. Shinn never intended to claim the ability you're talking about.

I've been having my guys "Off map"(waaaaaaaaaaay off map) for several months now. Deal with it.

You haven't been fleeing from PCs.

You still gotta deal with it.

Wherever they can run, you can follow- and ask annoying questions!

[Ryan Thunder]

You still gotta deal with it.

Wherever they can run, you can follow- and ask annoying questions!

That's the plan.

It's not so bad, actually, just unexpected. I'll be sure to invest in some mapping expeditions.

[Dark Hellion]

I have to object strongly to the use off-map space as an escape path. I know that Maya and me did use it earlier but that was for a purely self-contained diplomatic meeting and the Refuge ship position had no strategic relevance to the game at large; it was a use of "unreal space" to physically meet since there was the whole damn K-Zone in the way. This use of off-map space is an attempt to skirt the fact that the HaruByz fleet is surrounded by using sectors that no one is in because for the most part they don't even exist. It smacks of rules lawyering and munchkinism because you are using a thin technicality as if it was a regular part of the game rules. It also reeks of bad-sportsmanship.

I'm sorry, DH, but I'm gonig to have to say that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with what the Imperial fleet is doing. They're taking a circuitous route to get home, because all the short paths lead past people who might well attack them, or at least command them to heave to at gunpoint.

This has risks and drawbacks, among them that it gives people like the Chamarrans and Klavostanis more time to position a fleet to 'head them off at the pass.' But...

Head them off at the pass? I hate that cliche! *shoots Simon's foot*

If you are cool with this I guess I am too. I just find myself being concerned about precedence again but hopefully this will be unfounded.

[Shroom Man 777]

One thing I'd like to mention. [Actually Rogue mentioned this in the chat too.]

The Haruhiists, having worked with the other coalition members for quite some time, and having seen the diplomatic fallout of their attempt to bring Liquid Rubiconium weapons, and the general utter pissed off mood of the whole galaxy towards the Byzantines for all their antics, could easily project that what they did on Earth and Sol would finally be the straw that broke the camel's back.

Which is why they may think that passing by nations who've already expressed outrage at Byzantine actions, and who'll not take too kindly to the events on Earth and Sol, may not be a good idea and that it may be better to take another way back home.

Hell, for all we know since both the Haruhiists and the Byzantines saw the Chamarrans shoot missiles at them in Sol, they might fear that the Chamarrans might bring the other members of OMINOUS (rather than the humans) to pursue them.


We based some of the dialogue between Rus, Aurelian and Homura on events we planned to take place in Earth that may no longer be applicable. Yes, it would've been better if we chronologically posted the events on Earth first before moving to the Great Escape, but with the Chamarrans and Klavostanis on the move, we thought it was more prudent to post first the Haruhii-Byzantine escape and then Unreal Time the events on Earth (ala flashbacks or whatever) because if we did it chronologically and wrote the events of Earth first before working on the Great Escape, by the time we got the Earthpost out, well, by that time maybe someone may have been able to pre-empt the Great Escape before we could write it yet. So we went with the Escape first.

[Shroom Man 777]

If you find the whole "They left their minds unguarded and open" line so objectionable, well, here's another option for your consideration:

“The feline xenos have already pursued us to the hyperlimit, and they may continue their chase. We cannot take any chances, and even passing by near their nation is a risk that we cannot abide, much less the other spineless vermin who call themselves ‘human’,” Aurelian explained as the various commanders and astropaths gathered in person or virtually around his throne room.

“And from my projections, the Chamarrans may not be alone.” Field Marshall Homura Akemi added. “Other elements of their coalition may be vectoring towards us as we speak. The Bragulans would love to take this opportunity to end us and shift the balance to their side, and those pompous Nova-Atlanteans may want to finally get even for the Great Crusade. And even our nominal allies may not be so willing as to give us free passage after what we've done. So the channels to the space core-spinward should be considered unsafe as well.”

“Pray tell, Field Marshall, what ever made you think that your own allies in the coalition would sell us out?” Rus Komnenos asked, and then gulped down a jeweled skull-chalice of noxious tsvagna.

“We've burned all our bridges here. Things are different since the Great Crusade. War has changed.” Akemi replied tersely, reflecting on all the sacrifices that had to be done. How they had to go back on the coalition, and how even then, they had failed to stop the formation of the Eye. “And it’s not much of a stretch to imagine that they'll be cross after your little party at the Planetoid, Warmaster. We ourselves didn’t earn ourselves any favors after Earth... not after using liquid-R... but it was a strategic necessity. Too bad not all of them can stomach what needs to be done.”

Rus belched.

[KhorneFlakes]

If you find the whole "They left their minds unguarded and open" line so objectionable, well, here's another option for your consideration:

“The feline xenos have already pursued us to the hyperlimit, and they may continue their chase. We cannot take any chances, and even passing by near their nation is a risk that we cannot abide, much less the other spineless vermin who call themselves ‘human’,” Aurelian explained as the various commanders and astropaths gathered in person or virtually around his throne room.

“And from my projections, the Chamarrans may not be alone.” Field Marshall Homura Akemi added. “Other elements of their coalition may be vectoring towards us as we speak. The Bragulans would love to take this opportunity to end us and shift the balance to their side, and those pompous Nova-Atlanteans may want to finally get even for the Great Crusade. And even our nominal allies may not be so willing as to give us free passage after what we've done. So the channels to the space core-spinward should be considered unsafe as well.”

“Pray tell, Field Marshall, what ever made you think that your own allies in the coalition would sell us out?” Rus Komnenos asked, and then gulped down a jeweled skull-chalice of noxious tsvagna.

“We've burned all our bridges here. Things are different since the Great Crusade. War has changed.” Akemi replied tersely, reflecting on all the sacrifices that had to be done. How they had to go back on the coalition, and how even then, they had failed to stop the formation of the Eye. “And it’s not much of a stretch to imagine that they'll be cross after your little party at the Planetoid, Warmaster. We ourselves didn’t earn ourselves any favors after Earth... not after using liquid-R... but it was a strategic necessity. Too bad not all of them can stomach what needs to be done.”

Rus belched.

I officially approve this as a replacement. Rus's drinking tendencies should be more common when writing about him or situations involving him.

[Shroom Man 777]

Hey KF, where was that post you promised you'd post tomorrow two weeks ago?

[Force Lord]

Random News Network: Footage leaked on recent riot in the Centrality's Supreme Congress! Chaos and mayhem embarrass Party! Crackdown ends fighting!

[KlavoHunter]

Well, it seems clear that Fin is only here to trumpet his competence over his inferiors, so I guess we'd just better let him get on to doing bigger and better things while us retards flail around in his noble dust, since clearly he participates in the game far much more than we do. Or else his temper tantrum will get worse.



I used up all my tact last night on Shinn, since he's the only one it would work on. It's entirely obvious that pulling your punches and trying to velvet-glove one's messages to Fin only results in you being bullrushed and stomped all over.

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, as a matter of fact Fin and Darkevilme have come to an amenable solution tactfully with one another.