Another Shep Hijack

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-03 12:21pm

Dalton wrote:You do not know the power of the video side.

Quick, lets get all the gun people in here and start talking about rimmed/nonrimmed cases and the advantages of 5.56 versus 7.62!

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-03-03 04:54pm

Thread split.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-03-03 05:05pm

5.56 weighs less, takes up less space, and recoils less.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-03-03 06:03pm

What the...?

RadiO · Post by **RadiO** » 2003-03-03 06:19pm

6mm Airsoft rules. I can strut around with a M4 carbine with an M203 underneath, and open 1x sixpack of whoopass on the garden shed, on the roobarb and all over my friends - and it's all perfectly legal! Until the government ban replica weapons, the bastards.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-03-03 06:31pm

7.62mm NATO has more killing and stoping power, although it has more recoil and it is harder to allow full auto on 7.62mm rifles without loosing accuracy. 5.56mm NATO is smaller with less recoil allowing smaller magazines and less weight. They provide enough firepower to wound an individual and remove them from combat effectiveness while not necessarily killing them.

All in all the 5.56mm makes a good standard ammunition for most militaries. When fired from 18" to 20" barrels it makes an effective round. Fired from barrels less then 18" doesn't provide quite the range or firepower, though the weapon will be effective at close range while providing superior armor penetration then standard SMGs. 7.62mm rounds are good for MMGs as well as sniper weapons. It can be used effectively for certain weapons, but doesn't work out well for standard ammunition.

Now, when newer weapons have better recoil supression systems and more powerful charges can be packed into a somewhat smaller cartridge, and body armor improves in effectiveness, I can see the 7.62mm gaining more use. However with some of the AP capabilities of the 5.56mm AP rounds, the 5.56mm is going to remain a highly flexible standard military ammunition for quite some time.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-03-03 07:18pm

7.62 is a better round for killing people.

5.56 is a better round for logistical, ergonomic, and training processes.

Hence, 5.56 is a better military round.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-03 07:24pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote: Hence, 5.56 is a better military round.

NYET

Hollow tip inside the bullet insures massive wound cavity, da comrades?

(EDIT: I know that the pick above is for hollow-point ammo,
but standard Russkie 5.45mm FMJ rounds are optimized for
massive wound cavities, as they put a little air buble in the bullet
that makes it into a hollowpoint after it hits the target....nice way
of circumventing the geneva convention)

Brother-Captain Gaius · Post by **Brother-Captain Gaius** » 2003-03-03 07:27pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Pablo Sanchez wrote: Hence, 5.56 is a better military round.
NYET
Hollow tip inside the bullet insures massive wound cavity, da comrades?

You just hijacked your own hijack. And yes, 5.45 0wnz j00!

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-03 07:30pm

JediNeophyte wrote: You just hijacked your own hijack. And yes, 5.45 0wnz j00!

It was about bullets and the proper ammo load, man...and besides, I was
expecting pablo to jump in and shout to the skies about how 5.45 was
the God of the Battlefield...not NATO 5.56mm

RadiO · Post by **RadiO** » 2003-03-03 07:31pm

MKSheppard wrote: Hollow tip inside the bullet insures massive wound cavity, da comrades?

I remember all that business from the 1980s about the Russian 5.45mm cartridge breaking international law for exactly that reason; was there ever actually any upshot from that with the end of the Cold War, or did it just blow over?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-03-03 07:32pm

Hollow point rounds are forbidden by the Geneva conventions, FMJs are typically used instead.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-03 07:36pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Hollow point rounds are forbidden by the Geneva conventions, FMJs are typically used instead.

Ah Ah, but the 5.45 has the hollow pit INSIDE the round, not on the outside,
so it is "technically" a FMJ round

Gotta love those sneeeky commie bastids...

RadiO · Post by **RadiO** » 2003-03-03 07:36pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Hollow point rounds are forbidden by the Geneva conventions, FMJs are typically used instead.

Ah, right. So has the hollow-point round for the AK-74 and related weapons been replaced, or is it just a case of "Fuck it, we've been doing this for years, so why lose sleep over it now?"

EDIT: Because - Crap, Shep just answered my question even as I was posting this. Sorted!

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-03-03 07:36pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Hollow point rounds are forbidden by the Geneva conventions, FMJs are typically used instead.
Ah Ah, but the 5.45 has the hollow pit INSIDE the round, not on the outside,
so it is "technically" a FMJ round

Gotta love those sneeeky commie bastids...

That is sneaky, does it give the same performace as hollow point and cross tips?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-03 07:39pm

RadiO wrote: EDIT: Because - Crap, Shep just answered my question even as I was posting this. Sorted!

Eh, we can wait for Vympel to come on later tonight. He has a massive
mega multi meg dossier on every piece of soviet hardware ever made,
that is only viewable to HAB denizens...

He'll be able to explain it in much better detail than I would ever be
able to

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-03-03 07:55pm

For military use the 5.56mm is a superior round then the 7.62mm. The Russians learned from this and developed the 5.45mm round.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-03 08:06pm

Alyeska wrote:For military use the 5.56mm is a superior round then the 7.62mm. The Russians learned from this and developed the 5.45mm round.

Actually, there are two types of 7.62

You got your full power NATO round, the 7.62x51 NATO

and

Yer cut down ComBloc round, the 7.62 x 39 Russian (used in AK-47)

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-03-03 08:08pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Alyeska wrote:For military use the 5.56mm is a superior round then the 7.62mm. The Russians learned from this and developed the 5.45mm round.
Actually, there are two types of 7.62

You got your full power NATO round, the 7.62x51 NATO

and

Yer cut down ComBloc round, the 7.62 x 39 Russian (used in AK-47)

How well can the AK-47 take the full power NATO round? How about the high velocity AP rounds?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-03 08:13pm

Alyeska wrote: How well can the AK-47 take the full power NATO round? How about the high velocity AP rounds?

ROFLAMO...

the x51 and x39 refer to the cartridge CASE Length...

let me illustrate:

6.5x50SR, 7.92x33, 7.62x33, 7.62x39, 7.62x45, 7x49, 5.45x39, 5.56x45, 7.62x51 for scale.

(the russian AK round is 4th from the left, and the US NATO is at the
end of the line at right)

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-03-03 08:23pm

The WARSAW 7.62mm is less powerful, but that only helps it along in regards to the 5.56mm NATO.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-03-03 08:23pm

Shows how much I know. Ok, NATO standard 7.62mm seems to be more powerful. The AK-47 wanted the size round but they had to alter the casing for it. I can see why they developed the 5.45mm round instead.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-03-03 08:27pm

Alyeska wrote:Shows how much I know. Ok, NATO standard 7.62mm seems to be more powerful. The AK-47 wanted the size round but they had to alter the casing for it. I can see why they developed the 5.45mm round instead.

Indeed, the latest generation of Russian assault rifles such as the AN-94 were built to use 5.56mm NATO rounds I believe, but as Russia has HUGE ammo dumps of 7.62mm, they simply keep using the older AKs for their conscripts and the newer rifles for spec-ops.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-03-03 08:38pm

MKSheppard wrote:(EDIT: I know that the pick above is for hollow-point ammo, but standard Russkie 5.45mm FMJ rounds are optimized for
massive wound cavities, as they put a little air buble in the bullet
that makes it into a hollowpoint after it hits the target....nice way
of circumventing the geneva convention)

If either 5.56 or 5.45 hits you solidly at speed, you're fucked. The extra bit of wounding performance isn't so important, and it's inferior in terms of consistent accuracy, particularly at range.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-03-03 08:44pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Indeed, the latest generation of Russian assault rifles such as the AN-94 were built to use 5.56mm NATO rounds I believe,

Not really. Although I think it was designed with the possibility of doing so.

but as Russia has HUGE ammo dumps of 7.62mm, they simply keep using the older AKs for their conscripts and the newer rifles for spec-ops.

Virtually all servicemen in the Russian army use the AK-74 with its 5.45 round, but the Soviet doctrine on obsolescent weapons still holds true:

Never, ever throw ANYTHING away! No, not even that T-54. You may need it later!