Ancients (Stargate) vs Q vs Ancients (Farscape)

[Metahive]

Not bloody likely considering it wouldn't be the first time the Ori tried to snuff 'em all out. They after all were the ones who sent the plague that only some tiny fraction of Ancients survived via ascension. Also, if they converted them to their ways they'd have to compete for their subject's "worship-energy", something that the show pointed out was anathema for the Ori and the reason why they never intended to ever let any of their worshipers ascend.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Not bloody likely considering it wouldn't be the first time the Ori tried to snuff 'em all out. They after all were the ones who sent the plague that only some tiny fraction of Ancients survived via ascension. Also, if they converted them to their ways they'd have to compete for their subject's "worship-energy", something that the show pointed out was anathema for the Ori and the reason why they never intended to ever let any of their worshipers ascend.

Fair enough, it was just a random thought I came up with.

[avatarxprime]

I seem to recall an episode of Voyager where Q (or at least, one of the Q) went back in time to the moments of the Big Bang.

Yes, in the episode Death Wish, where Q is chasing after Quinn (a Q who wants to die) and tries to hide from Q by taking Voyager to the Big Bang.

Um, the Ancients actually don't possess the weapon. The only working model was used against the Ori.

not quite. they INVENTED it (well, Merlin anyway, but he was not even actually ascendent).

More to the point Merlin invented it by using knowledge he gained while Ascended, similar to how Orlin used knowledge from being Ascended to help Sam with the plague.

The Ancients are crippled by a particularly strict version of the Prime Directive. They didn't do anything when the Ori threatened to come after them and they won't do anything when Q comes for them. Moreover, they might even act against individual ancients who try to do something about it.

They're the giant pandas of the ethereal planes, sorted by evolution to go extinct.

They're not quite that bad. The Ascended Ancients don't muck about in the affairs of the lower planes (no matter the risk to themselves through such inaction), but will go to battle against other Ascended beings. The reason they didn't go up against the Ori was because the Ori had not yet done anything. Sure they were subjugating an entire galaxy and sent troops to do the same in another, but the Ori had yet to act against the Ascended directly. Considering how much they are willing to act against their own, I'm sure that if the Q did make a move against them they'd be happy (OK, not happy, but willing) to fight back.


And now a question, what is the power level supposed to be for the Farscape Ancients? Yes they built the wormhole network and all that, but most of their powers seemed like telepathy/mental illusion and then exploitation of wormholes for everything else.

[Stofsk]

IIRC from a season four episode, the Ancient known as Einstein was preparing to delete Chricton from reality. The wormhole network also leads to unrealised realities, which the Farscape Ancients can navigate.

On the flip side, the Ancient who posed as Chricton's dad was murdered by Furlogh in season three. So they're not all-powerful or invulnerable.

Of the three I think Q would stand the best chance at prevailing against the others. He has the kind of time-travel/dimension hopping abilities the Farscape Ancients have, as well as the ability to bend/distort reality (stuff like propel the Enterprise from one point of space to another, insta-freeze somebody like he did to that security guy, and stuff like cause Data to spontaneously laugh). I don't know what SG-1 Ancients bring to the table but from what I've read in this thread I'm not terribly impressed. Q can also be hurt mind you - in 'True Q' Q was told by the rest of the Continuum to terminate Amanda Rogers if she refuses to return with him, and in 'Deja Q' Q had actually been stripped of his powers. But I don't recall anyone ever threatening Q with a phaser and succeeding.

[Revy]

Don't know anything about the Farscape Ancients, but some of the abilities the Stargate ones have demonstrated include:

*Oma wiping out Apophis' army at Kheb, including stopping staff blasts in mid-air and then whisking them away with magic.
*The Ancients destroying an entire civilisation that Orlin had given advanced tech to.
*Recreating Abydos and its stargate after Anubis destroyed them.
*Raising Daniel from the dead after he was killed by RepliCarter and transporting him back to Earth.
*A Pegasus Ancient destroying a Wraith invasion in SGA.

I'm probably missing stuff out here, but they don't always sit on their asses and do nothing. What they could do to someone like Q I have no idea.

[Metahive]

Half of that incidents were Oma Desala's doing and she's considered a rogue by the rest. It's obvious that the Ancients can wield enormous power over the physical plane, it's just that they are so incredibly squeamish about using it even if it would be in a way not obvious to any onlookers.

Case in point their handling of the Ori invasion. If they were really so concerned about concealing the Milky Way galaxy from the Ori, why didn't they cause that body-swap device that triggered their interest to malfunction? Surely they could have vanished or scrambled some important circuitry and SG-1 would have just considered the device broken. But nooo, free will and all that humbug, even if that means giving your mortal enemies a chance to annihilate you. Then there's how they went about Anubis. No, don't descend him all the way back, let him keep knowledge that enables him to murder millions and watch with mild disinterest him attempting to do just that, all to teach Oma a lesson. That was just plain fucking evil as well as hypocritical considering they descended Daniel completely and removed all of his special ascended knowledge. Add to that that Anubis might even have gone the way of the Ori and eventually threatened the Ancients on their own plane if "Prototype" is any indication.

Fucking ethereal pandas. Self destructive to the max.

/rant

[Revy]

Be fair, half of that is plot induced stupidity. If they did stop Daniel from contacting the Ori then there would be no Ori threat for the next two seasons of SG1. Which some people might consider a good thing, but the writers at the time clearly wanted it, so they made the Others sit on their thumbs and let it happen.

There's a big difference between the earlier portrayal of the ascended beings and their portrayal after Full Circle, when it was revealed they were the Ancients (later changed to be 'some of em'). There's no way the later depiction of the Ancients would have allowed Oma to nuke Apophis' army the way she did when we first saw her, especially considering they wouldn't let Daniel do half as much to spring Jack out of Baal's prison.

Likewise, I find it hard to picture the non-interference lazy jerks we later see wiping out the inhabitants of Velona the way they did in the season 5 episode 'Ascension'. Earlier depiction of ascended beings in the Milky Way seemed to show that they had no problems with nuking the crap out of any lower beings if they felt the need. Contrast with their later tendency to sit on their asses even if their own personal existence is threatened. Clearly they suffered some kind of attitude decay somewhere along the line.

[Ryag Han]

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment:

What if he meant destroy as in "destroying an argument"? What if the Ori's aim was to make the Ancients sacrifice everything they believed in; that "truth, freedom of will, knowledge" stuff from Ark of Truth, take their ideals and shatter them?

Or even convert them to the Ori's point of view. If they managed that with all the Ancients, then the Ancients are destroyed because they're all Ori.

Just throwing that out there.

actually, they were hopping to use the Sangraal, constructed by Daniel. of course, it totally backfired. they wanted to literary destroy them.

[Themightytom]

How is this a fair fight? the Ancients have NOT demonstrated any ability to alter reality or change time, they have the technology to, but they outlawed it. They have been presented in the series as constantly being caught with their pants down, and in many cases remain passive when even their own destruction is imminent.

so the time when one ancient made a gigantic wall of energy that engulfed an entire fleet is not impressive?

Now, Strawman boy it is not, even though that wasn't the statement I originally made, not when you're comparing them to beings that can encase a spaceship in a cage, miniturize a cloud attacking said starship Into The Palm Of His Hand and blow it away like a candle, or a being that is capable of booting a starship across the galaxy, resurrecting the dead, or creating entire fantasy unvierses with a wave of the hand. The one ancient who was ostracized for actually doing something is actually not that impressive in context.

altering reality is one thing, the Q didn't however made any change in timelines. also, some pesky humans were able to use their weapons to threaten them, what do you think will happen when another higher dimension energy being gets involved?

yeah Q gave the humans those weapons, so what the hell conclusion are you trying to reach here idiot.

well, when the Q were fighting, they caused stars to go nova, so we can imagine that such a fight would tear apart the fabric of the universe...the Farscape ancients would then launch their wormhole weapon, and win by default. (that thing consumes EVERYTHING, so the other two would have to back up)

Unless neither or either party would be affected by the destruction of the universe. For MAD you'd actually need a threat. The Ancients exist on a "higher plane" and the Q exist in their own continuum.

[avatarxprime]

IIRC from a season four episode, the Ancient known as Einstein was preparing to delete Chricton from reality. The wormhole network also leads to unrealised realities, which the Farscape Ancients can navigate.

Yeah, but I chalk all that up to wormhole manipulation. In the "real world" their abilties seem far more limited unless of course they happen to open a wormhole on top of you that just happens to be connected to the a star or something along those lines. Even then, they seem to be most effective by pulling in anyone they feel like messing with into a wormhole. In a way, they're kinda the inverse Q. The Q are relatively omnipotent in the "real world" while if you manage to make it into their special section of reality (the Q Continuum) you can actually make war against them while the Farscape Ancients are the opposite.

Of the three I think Q would stand the best chance at prevailing against the others. He has the kind of time-travel/dimension hopping abilities the Farscape Ancients have, as well as the ability to bend/distort reality (stuff like propel the Enterprise from one point of space to another, insta-freeze somebody like he did to that security guy, and stuff like cause Data to spontaneously laugh). I don't know what SG-1 Ancients bring to the table but from what I've read in this thread I'm not terribly impressed. Q can also be hurt mind you - in 'True Q' Q was told by the rest of the Continuum to terminate Amanda Rogers if she refuses to return with him, and in 'Deja Q' Q had actually been stripped of his powers. But I don't recall anyone ever threatening Q with a phaser and succeeding.

Agreed. The Q are likely to win this confrontation.

Be fair, half of that is plot induced stupidity. If they did stop Daniel from contacting the Ori then there would be no Ori threat for the next two seasons of SG1. Which some people might consider a good thing, but the writers at the time clearly wanted it, so they made the Others sit on their thumbs and let it happen.

There's a big difference between the earlier portrayal of the ascended beings and their portrayal after Full Circle, when it was revealed they were the Ancients (later changed to be 'some of em'). There's no way the later depiction of the Ancients would have allowed Oma to nuke Apophis' army the way she did when we first saw her, especially considering they wouldn't let Daniel do half as much to spring Jack out of Baal's prison.

Likewise, I find it hard to picture the non-interference lazy jerks we later see wiping out the inhabitants of Velona the way they did in the season 5 episode 'Ascension'. Earlier depiction of ascended beings in the Milky Way seemed to show that they had no problems with nuking the crap out of any lower beings if they felt the need. Contrast with their later tendency to sit on their asses even if their own personal existence is threatened. Clearly they suffered some kind of attitude decay somewhere along the line.

The Ascended seem to have all kinds of weird rules. When Orlin was presumably giving the Velonans information they were content to sit back and let him, when the Velonans eventually decided to go "hey, let's use our new space gun to conquer the universe" they stepped in and destroyed them to presumably punish Orlin. When Chaya Sar use her powers to protect Proculus, they sentenced her to have to protect it always and only that one planet. When Oma messed up by allowing Anubis to Ascend they allowed him to stay Ascended to punish her, even protecting him from Daniel to ensure he was still around griefing Oma. When Morgan was going to give Daniel and Vala the information they were asking for (after already posing as a hologram to provide them with other information) they pulled her away. When Morgan later attacked Adria in another galaxy they opted to do nothing. They seem to be of the "give them enough rope and then hang them with it" school of thought, but only for rope accrued within their galaxy. Their most direct actions always involve dealing with the actions of another Ascended being.

[Korgeta]

One other factor favouring Q is that he is knows a lot, if you take into account on the enterprise episode 'regeneration' and how later on TNG Q took the enterprise in to confront the borg, he did so knowing that the borg were about to get the distress signal and were going to go after the federation. So Q sent the Enterprise so the confrontation was sooner then the borg would had planned. Q is not that far of being totally all knowing, so it comes down to who is better between the runners-up of this setup.