Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to Die

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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by avatarxprime »

PhilosopherOfSorts wrote:
Eulogy wrote:I would just like to add that the malevolent mandatory insurance law essentially criminalizes being poor. Don't have insurance? Get fined. But you're broke, and can't pay the fine. So you get imprisoned.

Come 2014, there will be even more blood.
Yeah, I'm dreading that, I don't have insurance because the choice for me is basically paying an insurance bill or paying my rent. Health insurance won't do me much good if I end up homeless. Ironicly Sadly, the best way to get comprehensive health coverage in the U.S. is to commit a crime that lands you in jail. There was a thread a couple of weeks ago about a guy who did just that.
I was under the impression that there was some minimum income level set for the requirement to get medical insurance. Also as to the story, here. There have been many comedy tales told about how in America the prisoners have more rights to comfort (healthcare, food, room, exercise) then the citizens. That being said, prison is still not a nice place to live, it's rather a sad commentary on the current state of the Nation.

Anyway, as others have said the current version of the insurance industry in the US is a bit of a joke, especially if you're in an individual plan. If you have employer sponsored care then you are slightly better off, but then you usually get a correlation between bigger company and better coverage. The funny (or sad depending on how you look at it) is that we (as in the government) currently pay more per capita then any other country with single-payer healthcare. When you stack on how much we all pay individually it skyrockets way past what any other Western civilization pays for healthcare. Add on to that the amount of time and energy that doctors and their staff end up wasting on filing claims for all the different insurance companies and you have a ton of wasted cash right there. We end up wasting something like 3x what Canada spends on administrative costs for doctors. You could make significant inroads to reducing costs just by switching to single-payer, but with the Right having as much power as they do, it'll never happen.
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by Uraniun235 »

Eulogy wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:It shouldn't be free, and it's not like "the taxpayers'" representatives have no recourse either - once the guy's healthy, either charge him the money straight up, or garnish his wages until he's paid off the treatment.

Letting him die is both callous and wasteful. At the very least, it's unlikely the man is a total net loss to society, so presumably "the taxpayers" have a shared interest in getting him healthy and back into the workforce.


Alternately we could just institute the death penalty for all cases of negligence that lead to death.
It should be free to the patient, dumbass, because those who need it most are the ones who can afford it the least. What you are proposing leads to debt slavery; that guy remains poor for the rest of his life due to a disaster outside of his control.

The american "healthcare" system is extortion, plain and simple. And don't say "lol go get insurance", health insurance is completely worthless. Why? Because insurance scammers companies will constantly and fraudulently look for ways to avoid paying for anything while still happily taking your money. In fact, it is so bad that those who are "insured" are in fact worse off than those who couldn't or wisely didn't buy worthless scam insurance; if insurance doesn't compensate you for things you bought it for in the first place, then you not only are effectively uninsured but are even poorer thanks to premiums.

Go fuck yourself.
I don't actually support the American healthcare system. But in a system where paying for insurance is voluntary, and someone decides "i don't need no insurance, i'm healthy and young" when in fact they were easily capable of paying for it to begin with (and remember that this was the scenario outlined in the OP to begin with), it's reasonable to expect that he be made to repay the cost of his treatment following recovery.

Besides which, even in a fully socialized healthcare system (which, hey! turns out I support that!) it's not 'free', everyone (except the poorest) pays for it via taxation. So theoretically, if someone was being a douchebag and somehow dodging the proportion of taxes that went towards the healthcare system, and then got massively sick and required lifesaving treatment, my sentiment about expecting him to repay the costs of treatment still applies.

But hey, good job on that quick draw! Maybe next time you'll actually fire at someone who believes in for-profit healthcare. Good luck with not looking like an angry douchebag looking for a fight next time. :)
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by Simon_Jester »

Most 'healthy and young' people who avoid insurance are doing so because their income is, at best, marginal when it comes to actually affording insurance. People who have enough money to afford individual care plans in the US... well, I'd figure on most of them either being old enough to start worrying more about their health, or unusually wealthy for people in their twenties and early thirties.
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by Uraniun235 »

Well, then those people wouldn't be "easily capable of paying for it", would they? And yes, although they're very much a minority, there are twenty- and thirty-somethings who would fall into that category.
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by Simon_Jester »

Eh, I don't really disagree with you, Uraniun. Just saying.

It irritates me that the original scenario is so disconnected from the reality of American life- which is that a lot of American young adults rely on 'native health' to carry them through without benefit of insurance. I'd really love to see Tea Party candidates deal with that- how is someone fresh out of college supposed to find a job that pays enough to cover health insurance these days?
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by Iroscato »

General Mung Beans wrote:
Chimaera wrote:
Phantasee wrote:Rick Perry is right: if the Republicans are going to take up the label of "pro-life" they better apply that across the board.
Good point, it sickens me that republicans are (speaking broadly of course) against abortion, yet quite happily put criminals to death, and have a rather cold view of uninsured people. I would love to sit down with one of them and ask them to explain that little nugget. :roll:
Ah because serial killers and terrorists are more valuable than fetuses. :roll: But as others have noted, this is simply a case of personal responsibility and choice ( :wink: ), if you don't decide to buy health insurance when you can afford it, you get what you get.
First off, shut the fuck up, you imbecile. My point was, right-wing lunatics (apparently like yourself) rave themselves hoarse about the fact that only their non-existent God can take life away when they attack abortion, yet support the death penalty, which is...oh, choosing when to take a life away. It's called sickening hypocrisy, and it's alive and well in the right.

Now that's out of my system, I'm actually shocked that the insurance system in America is so broken, hand in hand with healthcare. What the hell is the thought process of these people? Providing free healthcare for the poor is communism, and is therefore evil? Man, I heard that in a joke once, I didn't think it was true. :banghead:
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by Simon_Jester »

My impression: the insurance system has gotten considerably worse in the past twenty years. A lot of people's brains haven't caught up yet. If you're in the right job (with a good employer insurance plan), or your health isn't that bad, you do not get personal exposure to how messed up the system is- you're sheltered, to an extent. And very few American institutions and politicians are trying to agitate and get the full extent of the big picture out.

Of course, if you're looking for people who do know what's wrong with the system, you won't find them at a Tea Party rally, for obvious reasons: they're a self-selecting group of people whose faith in rugged individualism and the free market trumps any concern about human misery, or any social consciousness, they might have.


On a side note, in a sense, the health care system, the physical facilities for providing medical attention to people in America, as distinct from the insurance system, are basically OK. What's wrong is administrative- certain resources aren't made available to people who can't pay, plus everything that's already been discussed.

It's not American medical care that's screwed up, it's the social and economic infrastructure we use to organize and fund it.
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by Broomstick »

Chimaera wrote:Now that's out of my system, I'm actually shocked that the insurance system in America is so broken, hand in hand with healthcare. What the hell is the thought process of these people? Providing free healthcare for the poor is communism, and is therefore evil? Man, I heard that in a joke once, I didn't think it was true. :banghead:
Basically... yes.

A lot of those folks have his notion that being poor is "easy" what with all the government programs (ha!) and if you make poor people comfortable somehow that takes away the incentive for them to "achieve". As if being wealthy as fuck, therefore comfortable, somehow makes people less greedy, right?
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by Iroscato »

Broomstick wrote:
Chimaera wrote:Now that's out of my system, I'm actually shocked that the insurance system in America is so broken, hand in hand with healthcare. What the hell is the thought process of these people? Providing free healthcare for the poor is communism, and is therefore evil? Man, I heard that in a joke once, I didn't think it was true. :banghead:
Basically... yes.

A lot of those folks have his notion that being poor is "easy" what with all the government programs (ha!) and if you make poor people comfortable somehow that takes away the incentive for them to "achieve". As if being wealthy as fuck, therefore comfortable, somehow makes people less greedy, right?
I guess some people just don't have any concept of what it's like to struggle to make ends meet. God, I hate capitalism sometimes...
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by Simon_Jester »

Chimaera wrote:I guess some people just don't have any concept of what it's like to struggle to make ends meet. God, I hate capitalism sometimes...
That- or they simply assume that while they may have problems, someone else is doing all right: any economic troubles they experience they chalk up to specific misfortunes, not to general issues like "the system is screwing me."

For that matter, Tea-ism has its own explanations for why the system is screwing you: high taxes hurting business and such.
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by Lord Baal »

evilsoup wrote:Baal, there is some social security in America, but I believe there are no state-funded hospitals or anything of the like. Doctors are required to help anyone in an emergency; but for anything that won't cause imminent death, I believe that they will check with your private insurance company (which works like car/house insurance, complete with entire departments dedicated to screwing you over on technicalities) - if you aren't covered, then sorry, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
That's very surprising, I always believed that USA had a sophisticated public health system. It's sad... I mean, it's not like if public hospitals really work 100% if the time here, but they are a last hope to people with not enough money for private clinics and insurance and lucky enough to find the medicine/medical supplies they need in stock. Their inefficiency is mostly caused by the heavy corruption here and the fact that around 80% of the population can't afford a health insurance, so this hospitals (here hospital is the name for the public institutions, clinics is the name for the private ones) are faced by a endless tide of patients with little or no supplies/staff/rooms.

Anyway, those taxes I described are both mandatory and you can't avoid them (all the business are close inspected about making the discount and paying their part every month), so in theory everyone has free access to health care, now, that this health care might actually work is another entirely different matter..
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

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Lord Baal wrote:
evilsoup wrote:Baal, there is some social security in America, but I believe there are no state-funded hospitals or anything of the like. Doctors are required to help anyone in an emergency; but for anything that won't cause imminent death, I believe that they will check with your private insurance company (which works like car/house insurance, complete with entire departments dedicated to screwing you over on technicalities) - if you aren't covered, then sorry, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
That's very surprising, I always believed that USA had a sophisticated public health system. It's sad... I mean, it's not like if public hospitals really work 100% if the time here, but they are a last hope to people with not enough money for private clinics and insurance and lucky enough to find the medicine/medical supplies they need in stock. Their inefficiency is mostly caused by the heavy corruption here and the fact that around 80% of the population can't afford a health insurance, so this hospitals (here hospital is the name for the public institutions, clinics is the name for the private ones) are faced by a endless tide of patients with little or no supplies/staff/rooms.
I wish to clarify this.

The US does have public hospitals, usually county hospitals, that can get both state and Federal level funding, and in some cases local municipal funding as well. For example, Stroger Hospital in Chicago, formerly Cook County hospital, is a public hospital that serves not only the several million people of Cook County but will also take patients from surrounding counties, even into Wisconsin and Indiana. No one is turned away (although if they think you can pay your bill they will send debt collectors after you) and it's the hospital of last resort for the county. But don't think it's a total cesspit. It's also a teaching hospital, and for some areas of medicine, such as trauma, it's actually THE place to go and preferable to even the other fine but private hospitals in the area. Doctors in training interested in emergency medicine and trauma in the area all go to Stroger for their practical education.

It's also the backdrop for the television show ER, so if you've seen the show you've seen Stroger, at least in regards to the outside setting shots.

Of course, Stroger has the good fortune to be located in Chicago, a city whose annual budget exceeds that of some small nations, in addition to getting funding from the country, state, and Federal government. (They also, of course, accept private insurance) The place bleeds money, but it's a lifesaver. All the major urban centers in the US have some sort of equivalent.

Another well known public hospital in the US is Bellevue in New York City, founded in the early 1700's which means it's actually older than the US. It's emergency department is rated best in the city over and over, and in some areas it's actually cutting-edge medicine.

So the US does, in fact, have public hospitals that never turn away anyone.

However, if you live out in the middle of, say, Montana or Nevada, the nearest hospital of any sort may be hundreds of kilometers away. Anything serious requires medical evacuation by road or air. That's not to be mean, it's a function of population density. Sparsely populated areas can't support major medical centers.
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by Lord Baal »

Thanks for clarifying that. Here the main hospital of every city where there's a medicine faculty it's also the teaching hospital, so, despite what people might think, you are not on the hands of a bunch of kids with no experience, well yes, you literally are but they are assisted all the time by very experienced doctors that are the ones that teach (becoming a medicine teacher is pretty hard from what I heard).
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Teaching hospitals are actually ranked higher in terms of effectiveness and prestige than non-teaching hospitals, aren't they? Often, teaching hospitals have higher levels of accreditation and such, right?
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by Lord Baal »

That's what I said, or at least meant, yes.

Having said that, however, I will be careful to not make you mad, I won't appreciate my dick being stabbed.
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by Soontir C'boath »

Stories about Kent Snyder, Ron Paul's former campaign manager, are showing up.
Daily Mail wrote:Dead at 49 because he couldn't afford insurance: Terrible fate of Ron Paul aide emerges hours after Republican said state shouldn't provide free health care

Kent Snyder died from complications caused by pneumonia because his premiums were too expensive
49-year-old was Ron Paul's campaign manager during failed 2008 bid to secure Republican presidential nomination
Mr Paul told Tea Party debate people who did not have insurance should be left to fend for themselves
Retired physician also said churches should step in to care for those without cover

By Wil Longbottom

Last updated at 10:47 PM on 14th September 2011Ron Paul's former campaign manager died from complications caused by pneumonia because he couldn't afford health insurance, it has emerged.

The details surrounding the 2008 death of Kent Snyder were revealed hours after the Tea Party candidate indicated he did not agree with free state health care for the poor.

Mr Snyder, 49, died on June 26, 2008, with hospital costs totalling $400,000 after he became ill with viral pneumonia.

The bill for his care was sent to his mother, who was unable to pay, and so a website was set up by friends to secure donations. Mr Paul's election campaign did not provide workers with medical insurance.

At the time, Mr Snyder's sister was quoted in the Kansas City Star as saying that a 'pre-existing condition made the premiums too expensive' for the campaign manager.

It comes after Mr Paul, a physician and opponent of federal healthcare, appeared to suggest people who fell ill should be left to fend for themselves, even if they don't have health care, during a Tea Party debate.

On Monday night, the candidates - who also included Michele Bachmann and Mitt Romney - were asked whether the state should pay health care bills for an uninsured young man who suddenly found himself ill.

Mr Paul said: 'That's what freedom is all about - taking your own risks.

'This whole idea that you have to take care of everybody...'

He did not finish the answer as a the partisan crowd drowned him out with applause.

But when CNN anchor Wolf Blitzer asked if meant that 'society should just let him die', Mr Paul stopped short of agreeing.

He responded that it was up to churches to care for the dying young man, but the audience voiced their support of the idea.

After Mr Snyder's death, Ron Paul posted a message on his campaign website.

He said: 'Like so many in our movement, Kent sacrificed much for the cause of liberty.

'Kent poured every ounce of his being into our fight for freedom. He will always hold a place in my heart and in the hearts of my family.'

Mr Paul withdrew from the election race two weeks after Mr Snyder's death, but having raised millions for his campaign.

Many conservative Christian voters agree with Mr Paul's idea that individuals and churches should have authority over healthcare, as many are worried about federal funding directed to birth control.

During the debate, Mr Paul said: 'We've given up on this whole concept that we might take care of ourselves and assume responsibility for ourselves, our neighbours, our friends, our churches would do it.

'The cost is so high because we dump it on the government. It becomes a bureaucracy. It becomes special interests. It kowtows to the insurance companies, then the drug companies.'

None of the candidates disapproved of the idea of individuals funding their own healthcare or remarked on the audience reaction.

One critic, Eddie Vale of the Protect Your Care group, told the Los Angeles Times it was like a 'spectacle one would have expected back in the gladiatorial combat of ancient Rome'.

Census data released last week showed that the number of people without medical insurance in the U.S. went up to almost 50 million in 2010.

Mr Snyder is credited with turning his one-man operation into a phenomenon now calling itself 'The Freedom Movement'.

He persuaded Mr Paul to run for office and launched his campaign on his own computer in his apartment in Arlington, Virginia.

From there he built it into a $35million operation with 250 employees that secured more than a million votes for Mr Paul's nomination.

Jesse Benton, a spokesman for the Texas congressman, said: 'It was Kent more than anyone else who encouraged and pushed Ron to run for president.

'Ron would not have run for the presidency if it had not been for Kent.'

Although he was unsuccessful in securing the nomination, his campaign has attracted a strong group of support drawn to his libertarian strain of conservatism.

His opposition to the Iraq war set the 72-year-old apart from other Republican presidential candidates.

Mr Snyder began in politics as a volunteer on Ronald Reagan's failed 1976 bid to win the Republican presidential nomination.

He met Mr Paul in 1987 and also worked on his unsuccessful 1988 presidential bid on the Libertarian ticket.
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by PainRack »

I really think that this is a Howard Dean or Paul Wellstone fiasco. If one goes back over the speech again, the cheering isn't as loud as its described and it sounds more like one or a few more people trying to heckle Blitzer rather than people cheering that people should die. The cheering bits was clearly with regards to the State budget is too high and can't afford health care.
Granted, it DOES show the ultimate ideological outcome of supporting their viewpoints but to say that its celebrating people should die........

Seriously. To me, it looks more and more like the audience simply getting carried away and cheering on what they thought was a good rebuttal by Ron Paul regarding the costs of healthcare, then one or a few more people heckling Blitzer.
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by Lord Zentei »

Soontir C'boath wrote:Stories about Kent Snyder, Ron Paul's former campaign manager, are showing up.
I had noticed that; you beat me to posting it.

From my earlier comment:
Of course, if either of those two have any history of actually causing people to be turned away from hospitals and dying as a result, then that's different.
Don't know how much Ron Paul himself can be blamed for that directly, but... yeah.
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Can someone explain to me how it's possible to send a bill to a person's mother after they died? Unless she cosigned any forms saying she'd accept responsibility for payment that sounds illegal under the way US law operates. Creditors can only go after the estate, and one's spouse due to shared finances and responsibility; I know this for a fact from when my father died, ultimately only about 3,000 in arrears of some tens of thousands was collected and my sister still got most of his personal property.
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by Broomstick »

It's not even universal they can go after the spouse - laws vary from state to state.

However, it's quite common for creditors to imply the survivors are obligated to pay such debts, and some people pay them out of ignorance that they don't' have to do so.
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Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by Wing Commander MAD »

I hate to defend the Tea Party, but having seen the clip multiple times on both the Daily Show and Colbert Report it seems to be only a handful of people in the audience cheering, with one enthusiastic guy shouting. I'm not sure you can use this particular incident, which seems to have only been done by a minority, as something to damn the lot of them, at least not by itself. Isn't this the same behavior we ridicule the Right for regularly on here? Honestly, it's getting hard to tell what is hyperbole and what isn't in N&P, which seems to be morphing into some kind of Mirror Universe version of Fox News, something that I do not believe bodes well for being conducive to intelligent discussion.
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by Soontir C'boath »

Wing Commander MAD wrote:I hate to defend the Tea Party, but having seen the clip multiple times on both the Daily Show and Colbert Report it seems to be only a handful of people in the audience cheering, with one enthusiastic guy shouting. I'm not sure you can use this particular incident, which seems to have only been done by a minority, as something to damn the lot of them, at least not by itself. Isn't this the same behavior we ridicule the Right for regularly on here? Honestly, it's getting hard to tell what is hyperbole and what isn't in N&P, which seems to be morphing into some kind of Mirror Universe version of Fox News, something that I do not believe bodes well for being conducive to intelligent discussion.
It probably doesn't help at all that earlier, people were cheering Perry's execution record.
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by Wing Commander MAD »

No it certainly doesn't, though the execution of criminals who are viewed as guilty in light of their sentence (we'll ignore the issue of the problems with the U.S judicial system, as most are probably as misinformed about it as they are about the U.S. health care system) and allowing someone to die because you don't want to pay for their health care are different things. I went in expecting much worse, having read this thread prior to seeing the incident in question. The event isn't exactly what I picture when I read a headline about an audience cheering about something.
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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by Lord Baal »

I found this confusing at least. Where those people cheering over the hypothetical case of a man being turned down on emergency medical attention because he have not a private paid insurance?

Also, as I was explained earlier, there are public centers, can't the guy be transfered to one once he's stable? I would believed that social security would pay the expenses of the stabilization and translate to the public hospital, but now I'm confused, we all see on the movies and pop culture in general the use of "social security" numbers for USA citizens, now, what the heck is that and what's the use for it? In my country social security is directly linked to health care.

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Re: Audience at Tea Party Debate Cheers Leaving Uninsured to

Post by Soontir C'boath »

Lord Baal wrote:I found this confusing at least. Where those people cheering over the hypothetical case of a man being turned down on emergency medical attention because he have not a private paid insurance?
I'm watching it again now, and I think people can take two things away from it. Either the audience is cheering for the hypothetical man to pay his own bills or they know he will be turned away from the hospital and left to die (since they usually just patch you up and discharge you if you can't pay). This is before Blitzer made the "left to die" remark.
Also, as I was explained earlier, there are public centers, can't the guy be transfered to one once he's stable? I would believed that social security would pay the expenses of the stabilization and translate to the public hospital, but now I'm confused, we all see on the movies and pop culture in general the use of "social security" numbers for USA citizens, now, what the heck is that and what's is use? In my country social security is directly linked to health care.
Social security is not Medicaid/Medicare. It is a payout to a person who is above the age of 65 and/or is disabled.

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Last edited by Soontir C'boath on 2011-09-15 03:32pm, edited 3 times in total.
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."
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