Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by PhilosopherOfSorts »

I don't know why I'm about to do this, and some of this may have been mentioned before, but...

What if Klingon Empire conquared Breen? Could that explain why Klingon Empire was winning.

Why does it have to? Why can't it just be that the Klingons are simply better at fighting a long war than the Federation? Their tech is robust, reliable and easy to mass produce, they use cloaks, and, most importantly, they're less affected, psychologically, by heavy casualties. The Klingons don't necessarily need to conquer anybody else to win a war against the Federation, they just need avoid losing early and wear them down.
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by Metahive »

Why would going to war with the Breen, who are not exactly pushovers, shortly before or even during their spat with the Federation make the Klingons more likely to win the latter? If anything that should have made a klingon victory less likely.
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by Darth Tedious »

Metahive wrote:Why would going to war with the Breen, who are not exactly pushovers, shortly before or even during their spat with the Federation make the Klingons more likely to win the latter? If anything that should have made a klingon victory less likely.
Because it would have given the Klingons the advantage of the Breen's energy dampening weapon for about a week or so, duh! :P
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by StarSword »

^Patented JasonB logic at its very best. :lol:
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by Metahive »

Darth Tedious wrote:Because it would have given the Klingons the advantage of the Breen's energy dampening weapon for about a week or so, duh! :P
Impossible, not with all those stealthy, smelly Borg ships flying in between. Have you also forgotten how it affects the rocks and the anti-matter podes? To sum it up, Dark Vader wouldn't allow it. Why do you bunch always refuse to see the obvious!
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by Darth Tedious »

Metahive wrote:
Darth Tedious wrote:Because it would have given the Klingons the advantage of the Breen's energy dampening weapon for about a week or so, duh! :P
Impossible, not with all those stealthy, smelly Borg ships flying in between. Have you also forgotten how it affects the rocks and the anti-matter podes? To sum it up, Dark Vader wouldn't allow it. Why do you bunch always refuse to see the obvious!
Sorry my bad. :oops: The Borg smell attacks would have made all the difference...
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by StarSword »

His latest "argument" in the Ajilon Prime thread reminds me of a black hole: infinitely dense.
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by lord Martiya »

JasonB wrote:Fact Galaxy class battleship was about twice strength Romulan warbird
Wrong: a Galaxy-class explorer is faster than a D'deridex-class warbird, but in open battle the result would be decided by the warbird either hitting or missing with her initial salvo: from what we've seen, the main array of a D'deridex can fully drain the shields of a Galaxy-class, but seems painfully slow to charge. We can't make a comparison in firepower with the Valdore (even if she's about as fast as the Enterprise-E, by herself faster than a Galaxy), but the Scimitar was powerful enough to fight two Valdore-type warbirds and the Enterprise-E and win while making it seem almost easy.
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by seanrobertson »

lord Martiya wrote:
JasonB wrote:Fact Galaxy class battleship was about twice strength Romulan warbird
Wrong: a Galaxy-class explorer is faster than a D'deridex-class warbird, but in open battle the result would be decided by the warbird either hitting or missing with her initial salvo: from what we've seen, the main array of a D'deridex can fully drain the shields of a Galaxy-class, but seems painfully slow to charge. We can't make a comparison in firepower with the Valdore (even if she's about as fast as the Enterprise-E, by herself faster than a Galaxy), but the Scimitar was powerful enough to fight two Valdore-type warbirds and the Enterprise-E and win while making it seem almost easy.
Yep.

As to the greater topic at hand, I love the countless rationalizations and excuses Starfleet fanboys make. Why is it so hard to accept the simplest explanation -- the Klingons were militarily superior? Consider:

*Even the smallest Klingon ships can put up a fight. Kruge's BoP probably didn't outmass the Grissom, but one lucky hit fucked Esteban's ship up and but good! That leads me to the strong likelihood that ...

*Pound for pound, Klingon ships wield superior firepower. Consider the three K'Vort cruisers that kicked the E-D's ass. I scaled similar ships in TNG at about 400m wide which, IIRC, translates to ~265m long. The wings are thin, so consider the cruiser a 265m long cylinder that's maybe 70m wide (generous), translating to something in the 1 million cubic meters range. Even if you double that, the GCS is close to 6 million cubic meters, so ... need I say more?

*The Klingon Empire apparently occupies less space. While this may or may not mean they have less resources to draw upon (potentially a massive hasty generalization, even in light of Praxis. How do we know they didn't develop other "key energy production facilities" in the last 70 years?), it also means they have much less space to defend, meaning they can concentrate larger forces in smaller areas. The Federation, on the other hand, is spread out over thousands of light years and has more known enemies than the Klingons. Even if they prioritize fighting the Empire, they can only bring so great a percentage of their forces to that front; after all, they can't simply leave the Romulan Neutral Zone, Cardassian border et al. unguarded.

*Klingons like to fight. They like BFGs and killing people. Even some of the more capable Starfleet officers, like Picard, balk at combat training exercises. Riker literally rolled his eyes when Worf reported that the E-D's new torpedoes had an 11% greater yield. A Klingon would jizz his undies at that revelation. What's more, they believe if they die in "glorious battle," they get to go to Klingon heaven. As such, they're likely to put much more on the line than most Starfleet captains -- men, women and transgendered individuals who are more worried about keeping their respective crews alive than blowing away an enemy target.

*Klingons would rather die than be conquered (remember the whole Trek VI conspiracy?). Federation types, not so much. As Picard noted in "Yesterday's Enterprise," surrender was considered a viable option.

I find it completely plausible that, at full-strength, the Klingon Empire could win a war against an equally-adept TNG-era Federation. The Klingons suffered comparatively greater losses from the Dominion War than the Feds or Romulans did (at least, according to Agent Sloan), but as Worf noted, that was in part because the Klingons were relentless in pressing their attack. Of course you're going to lose more ships if you attack the enemy more aggressively than your allies :roll:

Moreover, the Klingons had to hold the front lines for a time while the Federation and Romulans pulled back to tinker with their warp cores. Even if that amounted to less than a month, that could be a very long-assed time indeed if the 30,000 strong Dominion fleet decided to push your shit in!
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by Danny »

Yep.

As to the greater topic at hand, I love the countless rationalizations and excuses Starfleet fanboys make. Why is it so hard to accept the simplest explanation -- the Klingons were militarily superior? Consider:

*Even the smallest Klingon ships can put up a fight. Kruge's BoP probably didn't outmass the Grissom, but one lucky hit fucked Esteban's ship up and but good! That leads me to the strong likelihood that ...

*Pound for pound, Klingon ships wield superior firepower. Consider the three K'Vort cruisers that kicked the E-D's ass. I scaled similar ships in TNG at about 400m wide which, IIRC, translates to ~265m long. The wings are thin, so consider the cruiser a 265m long cylinder that's maybe 70m wide (generous), translating to something in the 1 million cubic meters range. Even if you double that, the GCS is close to 6 million cubic meters, so ... need I say more?

*The Klingon Empire apparently occupies less space. While this may or may not mean they have less resources to draw upon (potentially a massive hasty generalization, even in light of Praxis. How do we know they didn't develop other "key energy production facilities" in the last 70 years?), it also means they have much less space to defend, meaning they can concentrate larger forces in smaller areas. The Federation, on the other hand, is spread out over thousands of light years and has more known enemies than the Klingons. Even if they prioritize fighting the Empire, they can only bring so great a percentage of their forces to that front; after all, they can't simply leave the Romulan Neutral Zone, Cardassian border et al. unguarded.

*Klingons like to fight. They like BFGs and killing people. Even some of the more capable Starfleet officers, like Picard, balk at combat training exercises. Riker literally rolled his eyes when Worf reported that the E-D's new torpedoes had an 11% greater yield. A Klingon would jizz his undies at that revelation. What's more, they believe if they die in "glorious battle," they get to go to Klingon heaven. As such, they're likely to put much more on the line than most Starfleet captains -- men, women and transgendered individuals who are more worried about keeping their respective crews alive than blowing away an enemy target.

*Klingons would rather die than be conquered (remember the whole Trek VI conspiracy?). Federation types, not so much. As Picard noted in "Yesterday's Enterprise," surrender was considered a viable option.

I find it completely plausible that, at full-strength, the Klingon Empire could win a war against an equally-adept TNG-era Federation. The Klingons suffered comparatively greater losses from the Dominion War than the Feds or Romulans did (at least, according to Agent Sloan), but as Worf noted, that was in part because the Klingons were relentless in pressing their attack. Of course you're going to lose more ships if you attack the enemy more aggressively than your allies :roll:

Moreover, the Klingons had to hold the front lines for a time while the Federation and Romulans pulled back to tinker with their warp cores. Even if that amounted to less than a month, that could be a very long-assed time indeed if the 30,000 strong Dominion fleet decided to push your shit in!

finally someone is talking sense. Klingons are warriors- Starfleet are explorers. Obviously the klingons would win in a war. Everything else he said was just overkill.
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by StarSword »

seanrobertson wrote:Even the smallest Klingon ships can put up a fight. Kruge's BoP probably didn't outmass the Grissom, but one lucky hit fucked Esteban's ship up and but good!
Not to nitpick, but that doesn't really prove all that much. According to numerous episodes cited by Memory Alpha, Oberth-class ships like the USS Grissom are pure science vessels. Plus, Kruge blindsided Grissom when her shields were down. (I could be wrong about the second part, though.)

That's not saying I don't agree with your overall assessment, though. The Klingons certainly seem far more consistently capable in battle than the Feddies.
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by Batman »

seanrobertson wrote:
lord Martiya wrote:
JasonB wrote:Fact Galaxy class battleship was about twice strength Romulan warbird
Wrong: a Galaxy-class explorer is faster than a D'deridex-class warbird, but in open battle the result would be decided by the warbird either hitting or missing with her initial salvo: from what we've seen, the main array of a D'deridex can fully drain the shields of a Galaxy-class, but seems painfully slow to charge. We can't make a comparison in firepower with the Valdore (even if she's about as fast as the Enterprise-E, by herself faster than a Galaxy), but the Scimitar was powerful enough to fight two Valdore-type warbirds and the Enterprise-E and win while making it seem almost easy.
Yep.
As to the greater topic at hand, I love the countless rationalizations and excuses Starfleet fanboys make. Why is it so hard to accept the simplest explanation -- the Klingons were militarily superior? Consider:
*Even the smallest Klingon ships can put up a fight. Kruge's BoP probably didn't outmass the Grissom, but one lucky hit fucked Esteban's ship up and but good! That leads me to the strong likelihood that ...
*Pound for pound, Klingon ships wield superior firepower.
Yes and no. Grissom was a science vessel with completely undetermined armament and defenses that was caught with her pants down. We know Trek defenses rely heavily on shields, which Grissom probably didn't have up at the time. The BoP quite probably had more firepower than an Oberth, but not due to any technological superiority, but because it was actually a warship.
Remember that Kirk essentially managed to cripple the BoP with a whopping two photon torpedoes-he lost because Scotty's jury-rigged automation went tits-up and they couldn't raise shields. A fully staffed Constitution would likely have eaten that ship in passing, as that was back in the days when Starfleet, too, still built warships (witness the pounding Reliant and the Big E live through in TWOK, or the E-A-and NCC-2000 in TUC).
Consider the three K'Vort cruisers that kicked the E-D's ass. I scaled similar ships in TNG at about 400m wide which, IIRC, translates to ~265m long. The wings are thin, so consider the cruiser a 265m long cylinder that's maybe 70m wide (generous), translating to something in the 1 million cubic meters range. Even if you double that, the GCS is close to 6 million cubic meters, so ... need I say more?
Now that I consider damn good evidence for the Klingons having more bang for the buck, at least in this alternate timeline. Either Starfleet maintained its policy of building 'jack of all trades, master of none' ships despite the fact that yes, we've been at war for several decades and yes, we're losing, so maybe it's about high time we start building actual warships, or they did start (if nothing else I noticed no children on the YE E-E) and their warships are simply inferior.
*The Klingon Empire apparently occupies less space. While this may or may not mean they have less resources to draw upon (potentially a massive hasty generalization, even in light of Praxis. How do we know they didn't develop other "key energy production facilities" in the last 70 years?), it also means they have much less space to defend, meaning they can concentrate larger forces in smaller areas.
I assume you base his on information from DS9, whch I unfortunately have never really watched. Because I can't recall any even halfway decent information on the size of the Klingon Empire from TOS, TNG or the movies (and try to ignore the information from ENT to the best of my ability).
The Federation, on the other hand, is spread out over thousands of light years and has more known enemies than the Klingons.
'8000 lightyears' being the closest thing to a concrete figure I remember, and given the speed limits of Warp the Federation can't be that large. Their best cruising speed seems to be 3 to 5000c and we never hear of a Federation ship needing years to cross Federation territory. Months, yes, that's nothing unusual as per TNG, but not years.
Even if they prioritize fighting the Empire, they can only bring so great a percentage of their forces to that front; after all, they can't simply leave the Romulan Neutral Zone, Cardassian border et al. unguarded.
Absolutely. While technically we do not know wether or not those are still issues in the YE timeline, we do not know they aren't either so those are if nothing else potentioal reasons why the Federation couldn't concentrate all its forces for the war with the Klingons.
*Klingons like to fight. They like BFGs and killing people. Even some of the more capable Starfleet officers, like Picard, balk at combat training exercises. Riker literally rolled his eyes when Worf reported that the E-D's new torpedoes had an 11% greater yield. A Klingon would jizz his undies at that revelation. What's more, they believe if they die in "glorious battle," they get to go to Klingon heaven. As such, they're likely to put much more on the line than most Starfleet captains -- men, women and transgendered individuals who are more worried about keeping their respective crews alive than blowing away an enemy target.
True for your standard TNG crew and officers. Unanswerable, I think, for the YE reality, and the E-Ds crew and Picard did seem a lot more inclined to fight instead of trying to talk it over and find a peaceful solution.
*Klingons would rather die than be conquered (remember the whole Trek VI conspiracy?). Federation types, not so much. As Picard noted in "Yesterday's Enterprise," surrender was considered a viable option.
This one goes either way. Surrendered troops and ships can be recovered and put back into use. While fighting to the death can earn you a great victory at the cost of your life, it can also result in you being anihalated in a battle you couldn't possibly have won.
I find it completely plausible that, at full-strength, the Klingon Empire could win a war against an equally-adept TNG-era Federation.
I'd vote we have insufficient data to say for sure one way or the other, but I'll happily agree there's nothing saying they couldn't possibly have the means to beat the Federation.
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by StarSword »

Danny wrote:finally someone is talking sense. Klingons are warriors- Starfleet are explorers. Obviously the klingons would win in a war. Everything else he said was just overkill.
Every time somebody uses that "explorers not soldiers" line, I get a headache from banging my head into the wall.

If Starfleet is not a military service, how come
  • the Federation uses them to fight wars? (TOS, TNG, DS9, movies)
  • they fly vessels that amnesiac crewmen categorize as battleships? (TNG: "Conundrum")
  • they use a rank structure and chain of command that is recognizably drawn from that of the United States Navy? (every single episode and movie known to man)
Those are just off the top of my head, in no particular order. The problem is not that Starfleet isn't a military service, it's that they're so bound and determined to convince themselves that they aren't one that it affects their preparedness.

The fleets of the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Jem'hadar, and so forth have no such confusion about their role. If it wasn't for the fact that Starfleet vessels fairly consistently out-tech them, the Federation would likely be steamrolled by its own neighbors.

I quote myself from another thread:
I wrote:Apparently for trekkies, if it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it's obviously a hamster. :mrgreen:
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by StarSword »

@D13: I was mostly arguing that Danny was right, but for the wrong reason. I agree with most of your points, but...
Destructionator XIII wrote:
StarSword wrote:How come they use a rank structure and chain of command that is recognizably drawn from that of the United States Navy?
<snip image>

That's vice admiral Regina Benjamin, the US Surgeon General... and she's not navy. Not coast guard either.
Bit of a red herring, but an interesting point nonetheless. I was going to argue that she was either retired Navy/Coast Guard or Navy/Coast Guard Reserve, but I checked Wikipedia and they make no mention of that being the case. Do you know why they call her a Vice Admiral?
2) The ships have weapons. I have weapons; am I a military?
You don't have weapons capable of devastating inhabited worlds. Starfleet does.

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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by VarrusTheEthical »

I think the balance of power that existed between the Federation and the Klingon Empire is that while the Klingons are better at fighting, the Federation had a better tech and industrial base. This is a pure hypothetical on my part, but seeing as how the Federation is semi-pacifistic, I doubt they would ever engage in a preemptive strike. Klingons have no such inhibitions. Therefore perhaps in the Federation-Klingon war of Yesterday's Enterprise, the Klingons started it off by launching a Pearl-Harbor style attack that gave them a head start in the eventual war of attrition that followed? I think that could be one reason why they were winning, they simply got in the first punch.
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by Uraniun235 »

VarrusTheEthical wrote: This is a pure hypothetical on my part, but seeing as how the Federation is semi-pacifistic, I doubt they would ever engage in a preemptive strike.
TOS The Enterprise Incident - Captain Kirk is sent under secret orders direct from the Federation Council to violate Romulan space and seize one of their new-model cloaking devices.

TNG The Defector - Captain Picard is granted the authority to decide whether or not to attempt to attack what may be a secret Romulan base in the Neutral Zone. He decides to charge in. Riker notes that he expected the Enterprise to have to fight their way in.
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by Stofsk »

For another thing, that war was implied to have gone on for ages, with Starfleet giving as good as it got (Picard or Riker comments on how the three BoPs weren't even bothering to cloak themselves, when they shouldn't be so smug after a huge defeat they had sustained recently).

To boil down the strategic situation to 'well maybe the klingons struck first' or 'well maybe klingons are just that good at fighting' seems unconvincing - wars are rarely decided by singular issues that you can point to and go 'ah ha!' like that. It was more than likely a variety of factors, none of which we know about, that contributed to the steady decline of Starfleet and the Federation's expected capitulation.
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by Uraniun235 »

We also don't know the political realities either. It's possible (albeit unlikely) that the Klingons are willing to take it to the "if two Klingons and one human are alive at the end of the war, we win" extreme, whereas the Federation might surrender as soon as any of the core worlds are under threat of massive planetary bombardment.


(It was Riker who said the Klingons got pasted at Archer IV. :) )
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by VarrusTheEthical »

Another possible theory is that both sides have pretty much beaten each other into the ground. From the Federation's point of view, they think they are losing. However, the Klingons could also be near the point of collapse. To draw a real world comparison, think about the situation one the Western Front during WW 1.0 before the US interviened, both side were near collapse before the war ended.
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by Danny »

I do believe Starfleet is a military service, however have all of you noticed in many episodes in the star trek universe, they like to apply the word 'Federation' when humanitarian/diplomatic missions, and the word 'starfleet' when confrontation is imminent?

"I am Captain Jean Luc Picard of the Federation Ship Enterprise", or "I am Captain Jean Luc Picard of the USS Enterprise", or even "I am Captain Benjamin Sisko of the United Federation of Planets".

like the conquistadors from spain, and the English explorers into the new world- their primary goal is to gain knowledge of unexplored terrain. Except unlike the aforementioned examples, starfleet does not pillage, steal and burn shit. They do possess a command structure exactly like the service [not much to go on], they do have a uniform code of justice [with a complete set of articles a starfleet member is entitled to], a Judge Advocate General, Security, Internal Affairs,Operations, Logistics, Tactical, and "battle fleets" with "tactical wings".

Like the American military, it has many humanitarian roles in preserving the peace, bringing food and medical supplies in catastrophes, and occasionally provide military forces in war.
I think the problem is Starfleet like to pride themselves at not being soldiers or warriors. Even Picard himself said it was created for exploration. This is due to the philosophy adopted by mankind after 3 world wars that devoted all of humanity's resources not in fighting, but in charting new worlds and explaining phenomenon not previously seen. According to TNG, the key component to humanity's drive into space was due to 'our' need to solve mysteries. Picard [an enthusiastic dixon hill fan] explains to both Q and Nagilum that its all about seeking life.

However at the end of the day- they are soldiers, just peacekeeping ones like the blue helmet idiots in the UN.
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by Danny »

Plus, why is it so hard to believe Klingons could win in a war against the federation? I would think it would be painfully obviously why. Over analyzing and Over thinking things can be as sad as Jason B's logic.
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by StarSword »

Danny wrote:Plus, why is it so hard to believe Klingons could win in a war against the federation? I would think it would be painfully obviously why. Over analyzing and Over thinking things can be as sad as Jason B's logic.
Probably because Star Trek fans have been conditioned to believe the Federation always wins. Excepting Wolf 359 and a few incidents during DS9 (the fate of the USS Valiant comes to mind), the Federation is rarely soundly defeated, and the few cases where they do lose, plot devices usually fix the problem by the end of the episode.

BTW, "JasonB's logic" is an oxymoron. :mrgreen:
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by Batman »

@Danny
That'd be the part where you have yet to show a reason why they would. So far, all you've shown is a lot of baseless assumptions. Like them always fighting to the death actually being an advantage (when that can heavily backfire on them), you blithely assuming the Klingon Empire is considerably smaller than the UFP (as evidenced by nothing whatsoever), etc. There's someone here who didn't think things through but it sure as hell isn't us.
1. Evidence for the small size of the Klingon Empire, and if so, how did they manage to become the industrial/military equal of the UFP, given they would need an equivalent amount of resources to do so?
2. Why would their suicidal tactics be an advantage rather than a detriment, given that Starfleet ships cum crews that run when victory is unattainable can be reused when Klingon ships and crews that are used in suicide attacks are gone forever (also note that as of TNG and especially DS9) even the Klingons have realized that)?
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by Danny »

@Danny
That'd be the part where you have yet to show a reason why they would. So far, all you've shown is a lot of baseless assumptions. Like them always fighting to the death actually being an advantage (when that can heavily backfire on them), you blithely assuming the Klingon Empire is considerably smaller than the UFP (as evidenced by nothing whatsoever), etc. There's someone here who didn't think things through but it sure as hell isn't us.
1. Evidence for the small size of the Klingon Empire, and if so, how did they manage to become the industrial/military equal of the UFP, given they would need an equivalent amount of resources to do so?
And where did i ever assume the klingon empire was smaller than the UFP? Size does not even factor into defeat or victory unless you dont have the number of ships to defend it. In either case, no1 here made the assumption the empire was "smaller".
2. Why would their suicidal tactics be an advantage rather than a detriment, given that Starfleet ships cum crews that run when victory is unattainable can be reused when Klingon ships and crews that are used in suicide attacks are gone forever (also note that as of TNG and especially DS9) even the Klingons have realized that)?
Who said anything about suicidal attacks?
The fact is- starfleet would lose in manpower. Starfleet ships crew hundreds of people per ship, a galaxy close to 900 to a thousand. A klingon bird of prey? More than 3 dozen at most, and they have proven themselves to be formidable in battle, especially when they fight in packs. Klingons if you havent noticed, field less soldiers on board their war vessels than starfleet does.
If that isnt enough, consider the fact klingons actually LIKE to fight? In the Alt Universe...umm was not the empire WINNING? It may have NOTHING to do with suicidal attacks, more like better tactics in aggressiveness, ship deployments and a wise strategy. If you want to factor in suicidal attacks, then as i said above- they field less crewmen on board their ships, so ratio wise they have less to lose.

A person said earlier in this post that Klingons were more relentless in battle, as evidenced in DS9, and had less qualms about losing soldiers in a war. This warrior ethos of fighting to the bitter end may be construed as weak and wasteful, but if you study history, it does have many advantages. Lets not forget starfleet ships are incredibly sensitive in battle. Every episode i have watched in ST where they engage in combat, the warp core always seems to be fucked up to some degree right after the first couple of shots.

Why were the klingons winning? People, its not rocket fucking science here. Dont over think it. Starfleet even in the prime universe in season 4 "merely halted klingon advance" but thats it. In a long drawn out war starfleet would eventually lose as they nearly did in the alt universe were it was a few years to 20? YThey kicked the cardies ass, and would kick Starfleets ass. Klingons with 1500 deployed ships in episode when it rains were holding the line against an enemy estimated by the Romulan Commander "30 to 1". Do the math- Klingons are superior in battle.

Dont bore me with your bullshit reasoning that the federation is all powerful and mighty blah blah blah. Theres plenty of visual evidence to prove otherwise.
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Re: Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

Post by seanrobertson »

Stofsk wrote:For another thing, that war was implied to have gone on for ages, with Starfleet giving as good as it got (Picard or Riker comments on how the three BoPs weren't even bothering to cloak themselves, when they shouldn't be so smug after a huge defeat they had sustained recently).

To boil down the strategic situation to 'well maybe the klingons struck first' or 'well maybe klingons are just that good at fighting' seems unconvincing - wars are rarely decided by singular issues that you can point to and go 'ah ha!' like that. It was more than likely a variety of factors, none of which we know about, that contributed to the steady decline of Starfleet and the Federation's expected capitulation.
Well said!

Going back to my earlier point about small BoPs, yeah, I know the Grissom was a poorly-armed science vessel :lol: (though I find it incredible that Esteban didn't raise shields prior to that hapless gunner's "lucky shot"; he had time to say, "Oh my God!", watch the Bird close, then communicate with Saavik on the surface. IIRC, he said, "Stand by, we're under attack." Did he forget so obvious an order as, "Tactical, raise shields!" in that time?).

But look at all other Starfleet ships in that size range. A BoP's volume is about 40,000 m^3. Assuming its density is comparable to the 700,000 metric ton Voyager, it probably masses somewhere around 40-50,000 tons. A Nova-class ship is likely twice that massive, and yet we learn Captain Ransom ran from a Bird-of-Prey and hid in a nebula for days until the Klinks got bored and fucked off somewhere else ("Equinox Pt. II").

Before anyone interrupts with nitpicks, let me back up for a minute :) Yes, it is possible Ransom commanded another ship which, as luck would have it, happened to be inferior to the Equinox. It is also "possible" the BoP that menaced his ship was of the cruiser variety.

But I find each possibility unlikely. For one, Memory Alpha says that he was promoted to captain after he made "first contact" with the Yridians. You know, those ugly fucks that were around, wheeling and dealing in Federation space at least as early as 2369, two years before Ransom and crew were pulled to the Delta Quadrant by the Caretaker. There's no mention of him commanding another ship for a very brief period before assuming command of the EQ.

Further, when he was evading that Bird-of-Prey, the Klingon-Federation Alliance was still intact. The only rogue Klingons we've seen operated the scout variety (Kruge, Lursa and B'Etor). Why would he run away from it unless Equinox didn't measure up?

Incidentally, the EQ was quite well-armed. Multiple phaser strips, fore and aft torpedo launchers ... she was no match for the Voyager, but then, VGR was ~7 times her mass.

What I'm getting at is simple. Apart from the hapless Oberth, some of Starfleet's other "science" vessels have teeth enough to at least deter a ship with a dozen officers and men to attack it. Yet, even with a 2-1 weight advantage, what happens? The Starfleet ship turned tail and ran away like a bitch (OK, it's official: I've watched too much Breaking Bad lately :D).

As such, my original point stands: the smallest Klingon ships can fight and easily beat up anything that's in the Federation Starfleet's same weight class. It's not until the Defiant -- half again as voluminous as the scout-type BoP, btw -- which debuted well after the Klingon-Federation War in "Yesterday's ..." would be over, that Starfleet learned how to pack a greater punch in such a small package. Even then, with the Borg, Klingon and Dominion threats looming on the horizon, how many D-class ships do we actually see in all of those massive fleet formations and other episodes? Maybe 10 total? 20?

I bet Alyeska would know 8)
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