Nemesis Ramming Scene

[Master of Ossus]

The Nemesis ramming scene didn't impress me at all. Was that armor that blew away from the two ships? It looked like thusands of pieces of bathroom tile. Is ST armor THAT brittle?

Er, they have armor?

I know Sisko put armor on the Defiant, but IIRC that was an unauthorized modification not even reported to Starfleet.

It was unauthorized and unreported, but it's pretty clear that the UFP and other races have the technology to craft such armor, even if they don't always report it.

[Sir Sirius]

Additionally, ramming maneuvers are indeniably dramatic. Such efforts show desperation, courage, commitment, and conviction. That anyone is willing to die to protect something or destroy another is one of the most potentially noble beliefs anyone in a sci-fi military can have.

Remember HMS Glowworm and Admiral Hipper? Rammings are like that in real life as well.

[Master of Ossus]

Anderson has put up another "Objections" section in which he attacks my claims. Among other things, he calls me "the vehement opponent" (Any bets as to how long it will take him to start calling Darth Wong "The Great Satan?" ), and uses strawman fallacies to attack my theory. My theory is pretty simple. If the shields are powerful enough to stop the initial attack, a glow will be observed. If they are incapable of stopping the attack, no glow will be observed. How does he counter this? With four examples of a shield that was observed stopping an initial phaser blast, then faltering and allowing the blast to pass through it. Additionally, he claims that "Not only are the shields supposed to be invisible, but evidently they're also to be psychic . . . ". Apparently he ignores the fact that the shields ARE invisble, until they try to stop something. I'm also not trying to claim that the shields are "psychic," all my theory requires is that the shields do not glow if they are hit by enough energy to instantly overwhelm them.

Since my theory has been defined, and he ADMITS he has no explanation for the shield glow-effect, my theory MUST be superior (particularly because my theory explains all observation).

The least the opposition could do is try to hide the insanity of their claim in the 1/24th of a second that a frame lasts . . . say, by claiming that the shield glow appeared and had already dissipated within the space of a single frame. Of course, that concept doesn't work either, as per the long post-penetration glows above, and the behavior of the Enterprise and Scimitar shields against weapons and (in the case of the E-E) impact.

Translation:

The least Master of Ossus could do would be to ignore canonical evidence so that I could easily rebut his point, since my alternative solution does not explain and is not consistent with observation.

If Ossus was more like me in methodology, I might be able to defeat him.

[Master of Ossus]

WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Opponents of the canon will no doubt continue to develop fanciful explanations that purport to show how the shields could have magically been up without glowing, magically disappeared without showing, and so on. However, the logic behind such charades is as invisible as the shields they want to pretend were there.

Opponents of the canon? Anderson proposes that the shields were DOWN for some reason, despite both the canonical shield display of the Scimitar (he previously tried to use the E-E's shield display to "prove" that the shields of the E-E were not substantially depleted by the impact from the Valdore's wing), AND the fact that he has NO evidence outside of his circular logic that the shields were down. All he's saying is that the shields would have been strong enough to withstand the impact of the E-E, so the fact that they did not must indicate that the shields were not there. He then calls me an opponent of the canon. One seriously must question Mr. Anderson's mental state, at this point.

[Master of Ossus]

BTW, Anderson talks about himself on his main page as he introduces his site update for the "Nemesis" objections page.

Some people never learn.

[SPOOFE]

Despite the fact that I disagree with him on the specifics, I will agree with him when he says, essentially, that the Nemesis ramming scene is wonky. It's unfortunate that he doesn't have the self-restraint to just leave it at that.

[Master of Ossus]

Despite the fact that I disagree with him on the specifics, I will agree with him when he says, essentially, that the Nemesis ramming scene is wonky.

That's putting it mildly.

It's unfortunate that he doesn't have the self-restraint to just leave it at that.

For him it is. I find it funny, because it gives me such a clearly superior position. My theory is the ONLY one that I can think of that explains all of the evidence, and he admits that his theories do not do so. Instead, he appeals to consequence and attempts to mock my theory without presenting a superior one or even explaining why my theory is incorrect.

[Yogi]

Just what do you mean by "initial attack"? All energy imparted is over time, even if it's a massive amount of energy over a short period of time. So what makes the Nemisis scene diffrent from the other scenes in which we see the shield unwrapping when failing? You say something about the shields stopping the "initial attack" but the shields will always stop the attack for at least a few fractions of a second before they fail. Is this a matter of scale (a few seconds vs. a few nanoseconds) or is it something else?

[Master of Ossus]

Just what do you mean by "initial attack"? All energy imparted is over time, even if it's a massive amount of energy over a short period of time. So what makes the Nemisis scene diffrent from the other scenes in which we see the shield unwrapping when failing? You say something about the shields stopping the "initial attack" but the shields will always stop the attack for at least a few fractions of a second before they fail. Is this a matter of scale (a few seconds vs. a few nanoseconds) or is it something else?

I would say that there is a threshold above which shields will not visibly attempt to stop an attack on the starship. I'm not sure what you mean by the shields WILL stop the attack, because that has not been observed. For example, the weapons fire that eventually destroyed the E-D in ST: Generations did interact with the shields, but was not even phased by them. In other examples, weapons fire has punched holes through shields quite easily.

In the case of ST: Nemesis, the shields of the Scimitar were overwhelmed by the KE of the E-E's maneuver, and because the E-E was hitting the Scimitar with a power above that threshold there was no visible shielding effect from the Scimitar. This is consistent with all observed examples of ramming in ST, as well as weapons fire.

[Yogi]

I'm saying that if a shield can stop X Joules of energy, and an attack comes capable of delivering Y watts of power, then the shield will hold for X/Y seconds before failing. Obviously in the ramming scene, Y was extremely high, so are you saying that if Y is above a certain amount, then the shields won't attempt to stop the attack?

[Master of Ossus]

I'm saying that if a shield can stop X Joules of energy, and an attack comes capable of delivering Y watts of power, then the shield will hold for X/Y seconds before failing. Obviously in the ramming scene, Y was extremely high, so are you saying that if Y is above a certain amount, then the shields won't attempt to stop the attack?

Now that you mention it, I'm not really sure if we can tell if the threshold is dependent on power or on watts. Given the pulse phasers used by the Defiant, and the implication that they are an improvement over normal phasers in spite of the "burst" fire as opposed to beam fire, and the consistent use of things like torpedoes, I would suppose that the threshold is more likely in watts than in joules.

However, the time that the shields remain up and glowing is not a variable in the sense that you are implying. My theory is an "either or." Either the shields can withstand the initial impact, in which case they will glow for some time, even if they are penetrated, or the shields cannot withstand the attack and so will not be visible.

I'm not saying that the shields won't ATTEMPT to stop the attack. The shields are inanimate and have no intentions to do anything. However, they will not be able to stop an attack above a certain threshold, and they will stop attacks below that threshold.

[AdmiralKanos]

From a logic standpoint, RSA says:

1) We usually see B when we see A.
2) We don't see B in this case.
3) Therefore, A is impossible in this case, even if an onscreen displays says that A is there.

He might actually have a case if he could show that the operating principle of the shield REQUIRES this flicker, ie- it is intrinsic. However, the fact that we don't always see it negates this possibility (never mind the fact that we don't know how shields work), and the notion that fresh Klingon ships were entering a battle without shields in DS9 is simply bizarre (not to mention the fact that we saw lots of hits with TOS-era shields that did not generate these effects, so we know a flicker only accompanies certain types of shields and is not intrinsic to the entire concept).

[Yogi]

In the Voyager episode Equinox, there is evidently a technique which can recharge a shield to full capacity, but requires around 30 seconds of shield downtime (which is why no one ever uses it in battle). Therefore, since there is evidently some sort of "battery" which gets drained whenever the shield is hit, but can be recharged to full.

There're cases of when a shield gets pounded on by phasers until the shield is exhausted. If it was watts, then the damage to the ship should be Power of attack - Power of shields. However, in Best of Both Worlds, the Enterprise's deflector is stronger than all its weapons combined, but only could be fired for a short amount of time, leading me to beleive that it is more energy than power.

It could be a matter of both power as a recharge to the shields, and energy as how much is avalable. However, I don't think I've ever heard of shield strength going up, or any indication of letting shields recover in a battle.

BTW, why is Burst Fire < Beam Fire? I always thought pulse phasers were an improvement because it could fire at a faster rate.

[Master of Ossus]

In the Voyager episode Equinox, there is evidently a technique which can recharge a shield to full capacity, but requires around 30 seconds of shield downtime (which is why no one ever uses it in battle). Therefore, since there is evidently some sort of "battery" which gets drained whenever the shield is hit, but can be recharged to full.

There're cases of when a shield gets pounded on by phasers until the shield is exhausted. If it was watts, then the damage to the ship should be Power of attack - Power of shields. However, in Best of Both Worlds, the Enterprise's deflector is stronger than all its weapons combined, but only could be fired for a short amount of time, leading me to beleive that it is more energy than power.

It could be a matter of both power as a recharge to the shields, and energy as how much is avalable. However, I don't think I've ever heard of shield strength going up, or any indication of letting shields recover in a battle.

True. This leads me to believe that the E-E had a greater KE than the shields of the Scimitar could stop.

BTW, why is Burst Fire < Beam Fire? I always thought pulse phasers were an improvement because it could fire at a faster rate.

Burst fire appears to be better than beam fire, but if the bursts were of the same power as the beam, then it should be weaker. The RoF is irrelevant for beams, because they are continuous.

[The Silence and I]

I have some trouble accepting a total lack of visible interaction between the Scimitar's shields and the Enterprise-E as evidence they failed under the attack. In every TNG example I can think of, shields were visisble if they were put to task, even when overwhelmed. An example of this is "Survivors," a single pulse completely blew past the shields. Worf restored them only to lose them again. According to your theory--as I understand it--that means the shields should not have flared. But they did.

There also must be something really weird about Dominion Attack ships, because the Enterprise-D has shrugged of heavier K.E. than these things ever had in any atttack runs. In the episode "Contagion," (the one with the Iconian gateway, and the computer weapon) the Enterprise-D took a direct hit to the foreward shields from the USS Yamato's (starboard?) warp nacelle. The nacelle, if I remeber correctally, was moving rapidly. Being from a Galaxy class starship, it wasn't exactally small, but it bounced off the shields without comment by the bridge crew. I have tried to find a clip of the event without luck, and lack the episode.

[Darth Servo]

I have some trouble accepting a total lack of visible interaction between the Scimitar's shields and the Enterprise-E as evidence they failed under the attack. In every TNG example I can think of, shields were visisble if they were put to task, even when overwhelmed. An example of this is "Survivors," a single pulse completely blew past the shields. Worf restored them only to lose them again. According to your theory--as I understand it--that means the shields should not have flared. But they did.

IIRC, in "Survivors" we don't see the Husnok ship hit the E-D out in space. We only see the attack on the view screen.

[The Silence and I]

Really? I must see that episode again. I could have sworn it was seen from the outside. Hmm. Well there goes one of my evidences.

[Darth Wong]

I have some trouble accepting a total lack of visible interaction between the Scimitar's shields and the Enterprise-E as evidence they failed under the attack. In every TNG example I can think of, shields were visisble if they were put to task, even when overwhelmed. An example of this is "Survivors," a single pulse completely blew past the shields. Worf restored them only to lose them again. According to your theory--as I understand it--that means the shields should not have flared. But they did.

Not only did we not see the impacts, but the E-D was hit many times, not just once.

There also must be something really weird about Dominion Attack ships, because the Enterprise-D has shrugged of heavier K.E. than these things ever had in any atttack runs. In the episode "Contagion," (the one with the Iconian gateway, and the computer weapon) the Enterprise-D took a direct hit to the foreward shields from the USS Yamato's (starboard?) warp nacelle. The nacelle, if I remeber correctally, was moving rapidly. Being from a Galaxy class starship, it wasn't exactally small, but it bounced off the shields without comment by the bridge crew. I have tried to find a clip of the event without luck, and lack the episode.

Again, we only see it from inside the E-D, not from outside. Besides, in ST6 we see shields that clearly do not exhibit any kind of bubble-flicker effect, so it's obviously NOT intrinsic to the nature of shields; just to a particular type of shield. Knowing that, there is no reason to kowtow to RSA's false dilemma fallacy.

[Darth Servo]

Really? I must see that episode again. I could have sworn it was seen from the outside. Hmm. Well there goes one of my evidences.

We see the ship approach from outside. We see the E-D run from the outside, but when it actually fires, its only on the viewscreen.

[Ingersoll]

Um ....

[Darth Wong]

Um ....

What's there to be embarrassed about? The shields are holding in that scene. When they fail, we can't see the event.

[Ingersoll]

What's there to be embarrassed about? The shields are holding in that scene. When they fail, we can't see the event.

Sorry, didn't know that was what you meant.

x = ^2

[Master of Ossus]

I have some trouble accepting a total lack of visible interaction between the Scimitar's shields and the Enterprise-E as evidence they failed under the attack. In every TNG example I can think of, shields were visisble if they were put to task, even when overwhelmed. An example of this is "Survivors," a single pulse completely blew past the shields. Worf restored them only to lose them again. According to your theory--as I understand it--that means the shields should not have flared. But they did.

Actually, in "Contagion" we never see the shields fail. We see them fired on, and we see the shields flaring, but we do not see the shot that actually knocks down the E-D's shields.

There also must be something really weird about Dominion Attack ships, because the Enterprise-D has shrugged of heavier K.E. than these things ever had in any atttack runs. In the episode "Contagion," (the one with the Iconian gateway, and the computer weapon) the Enterprise-D took a direct hit to the foreward shields from the USS Yamato's (starboard?) warp nacelle. The nacelle, if I remeber correctally, was moving rapidly. Being from a Galaxy class starship, it wasn't exactally small, but it bounced off the shields without comment by the bridge crew. I have tried to find a clip of the event without luck, and lack the episode.

I don't remember actually watching the impact of the two ships. I will re-watch the episode once I get my collection back from a friend of mine who I loaned it to. In any case, it is more or less irrelevant with regards to the JH attack ships. In "The Jem'Hadar," the shields of the GCS in question were almost certainly down. The ramming incident that I used to justify my assertions regarding the shields was not from that episode, but rather the one from "Sacrifice of Angels," in which apparently fresh Klingon Vor'Cha class cruisers were successfully rammed by JH ships. Their shields did not visibly react to the impacts, despite their apparently good condition.

[The Silence and I]

Nice to see people responded with only minor flames
But anyway,

Master of Ossus wrote:

In any case, it is more or less irrelevant with regards to the JH attack ships. In "The Jem'Hadar," the shields of the GCS in question were almost certainly down. The ramming incident that I used to justify my assertions regarding the shields was not from that episode, but rather the one from "Sacrifice of Angels," in which apparently fresh Klingon Vor'Cha class cruisers were successfully rammed by JH ships. Their shields did not visibly react to the impacts, despite their apparently good condition.

MoO, my point about the nacelle vs. the JH attack ships was not that the Oddessy's shields were defeated but that something like a fresh Vor'Cha's should not have been. It would be reasonable to assume a Vor'Cha is roughly comparable to a GCS, right? (Maybie a little weaker?) If so, why couldn't their shields handle as much as the Enterprise-D's could before war-time upgrades? I see it as evidence that non-Federation shields really suck when dealing with K.E. If the Vor'Cha could handle even nearly as much as the Enterprise-D then the JH attack ship should have looked like it just hit a solid wall, even if it does get through.

Basicly, I am trying to point out that the ramming incidents you cite as evidence do indeed display pathetic K.E. upper limits, but that the Federation can handle higher limits without comment. So unless Federation shields can handle more K.E. than they can energy from normal attacks, the Nemesis ramming incident proves very little. (Feel free to poke holes in it, I can change my mind)

[Yogi]

True. This leads me to believe that the E-E had a greater KE than the shields of the Scimitar could stop.

In this case, unless all the energy was delivered at one point in time (I don't think that's possible) then there should be a (very) short period of time that the shield was holding before it failed. Does that affect your argument any?