ROME (CNN) -- Seven people went on trial for manslaughter Tuesday in Italy, accused of failing to predict an earthquake that killed more than 300 people in L'Aquila in April 2009.
The seven -- six scientists from the Italian National Institute of Geophysics and Vulcanology and a member of the Civil Protection Agency -- were members of a governmental panel that prosecutors accuse of giving a "rough, generic and ineffective assessment of the seismic risk."
The seven, members of a so-called "major risks" panel, published "inaccurate, incomplete and contradictory information about the dangers of seismic activity undermining the protection of the population," prosecutors said.
The first hearing Tuesday morning in L'Aquila's tribunal was devoted to technical matters and claims by injured parties.
The city of L'Aquila has requested 50 million euros ($68 million) in compensation.
Only one defendant was in court, the vice president of the panel, Bernardo De Bernardinis. "I thought it was important to be here, not only because this is my turf but also to underline the professionalism ... of the other public officers," De Bernardinis told reporters.
The trial has attracted the attention of the scientific world.
The American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) wrote to Italy's President Giorgio Napolitano in June last year to express "concern" over the indictment of its Italian colleagues.
"The charges against these scientists are both unfair and naive," the letter said. The basis of the indictments appears to be that the scientists failed to alert the population of L'Aquila of an impending earthquake. However, the letter continues, "there is no way they could have done that credibly."
Lawyer Marcello Melandri is defending Enzo Boschi, who was president of the National Institute of Geophysics and Vulcanology at the time of the quake.
Melandri denies that it's a trial against science, saying: "Professor Boschi simply said that the earthquake is unpredictable, that it could or it could not happen."
The Civil Protection Agency had organized a meeting of the major risks panel in L'Aquila on March 31, 2009, amid concern among the city's residents over ongoing seismic activity.
After that meeting some members of the commission made reassuring statements to the press.
In particular De Bernardinis said in an interview with a local TV station that the scientific community was "reassuring" him, and that the numerous tremors were in some ways a good thing, as they released seismic energy.
The interview concluded with a joke. "Meanwhile, let's go and have a glass of wine," the journalist said. "Absolutely!" De Bernardinis replied.
Six days later, the magnitude-6.3 quake hit the city and surrounding areas, causing wide destruction and loss of life.
Eugenio Carlomagno is among the citizens of L'Aquila to feel let down by the panel.
"There are big responsibilities that this trial has to establish. No one alerted us, there were no evacuation plans that could have saved lives," he told CNN.
"It's not a matter of drinking a glass of wine, it's a matter of respecting rules."
The next trial session was scheduled for October 1.
Italian justice what a joke (Berlusconi is still running wild after all). While we're at it, lets burn some witches as well
Last edited by Dalton on 2012-10-22 05:43pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Title changed
This looks to me like a corrupt bureaucracy trying to cover its ass by finding a scapegoat. Who better than wiseguy scientists who are somehow not omniscient?
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron
TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet
And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! -- Asuka
While at it let's just put all medics on trial for failing at curing cancer and AIDS and all the NASA, ESA and other space agencies for not coming up with a FTL drive in order to save us from a potential extinction event (or should we wait to this event to occur in order to prosecute them?)
Where's the civil defense trial (since they are the ones that should come up with rescue plan along with other institutions) or the government trial in that case since I'm pretty sure they are the ones that have to make sure everyones get some education on what to do in disasters. And like Lord Zentei say, where's the trial on the makers and vigils of the civil construction code?
This is plain moronic and fucktarded. This reduce my faith in mankind like a 100%.... This certainly is the result of some one with wealthy pockets loosing someone on that earthquake and thus wanting to get someone to blame!
[signature]Insert cliche or funny statement here. [/signature]
Lord Baal wrote:This certainly is the result of some one with wealthy pockets loosing someone on that earthquake and thus wanting to get someone to blame!
That or the Illuminati are covering their tracks.
Considering this is happening in the middle of Catholicism Inc., I'm not surprised by how medieval this is.
JME2 wrote:And yes, this whole trial is a fucking joke.
Well, yes, except for the part about maybe having to serve an actual sentence, that's not quite so funny.
Good luck getting scientists to work for you in the future, guys!
For once, someone is making American religious retards look... um... sensible? Intelligent? Less stupid?
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
This nonsense is especially egregious in light of the followin:
Melandri denies that it's a trial against science, saying: "Professor Boschi simply said that the earthquake is unpredictable, that it could or it could not happen."
Somehow, that means that they were culpable for providing bad information.
Presumably also on account of this:
In particular De Bernardinis said in an interview with a local TV station that the scientific community was "reassuring" him, and that the numerous tremors were in some ways a good thing, as they released seismic energy.
Because saying that tremors release seismic energy somehow negates the fact that they had also said that the earthquake was unpredictable, and that it could or could not happen.
Wow.
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron
TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet
And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! -- Asuka
Broomstick wrote:For once, someone is making American religious retards look... um... sensible? Intelligent? Less stupid?
All of the above -- though again, given Italy is Catholicism Inc., I'm not surprised.
I don´t see the connection. Italy, as far as I know, doesn´t have problems with religiously based anti science moronism. This idiocy stems from something different.
I'm a bit reluctant to believe that this suit will succeed- but then, I was reluctant to believe it would come to trial in the first place.
Judges normally don't want to set precedents like this- unless I'm misunderstanding how precedent works in Italian law, ruling in favor of the prosecution here would implicitly acknowledge that whenever anything goes wrong that anyone could conceivably have predicted in Italy, that person is liable as if they had a duty to predict it and failed. At the very least it could be used to support future lawsuits along the same lines- survivors suing doctors every time a patient gets sick and dies of something they weren't warned of, and so on.
And, for that matter, it would seem to imply (in part) that I can just randomly ask people to give me a prediction about whether a disaster will happen and make them responsible for whatever happens to me if something goes wrong that they didn't warn me about.
Is there no existing EU law or regulation on the books that could intervene to disrupt this absurd fucking trial? If the EU is worth half the high-minded lyricism printed about it by its fanboys about how it represents the great cultural standard of progress and refinement embodied by whatever composers and scientists and philosophers they feel would invoke sentimental thought by name-dropping, then the EU should be moving to draft laws that prohibit this disgraceful state populist witchhunting that isn't much distinguished from Lysenkoism.
Once again, amid a torrent of cries against the "nanny state" or "nanny superstate" as the case may be, the critics do little to demonstrate that they do not need a nanny.
Simon_Jester wrote:I'm a bit reluctant to believe that this suit will succeed- but then, I was reluctant to believe it would come to trial in the first place.
Judges normally don't want to set precedents like this- unless I'm misunderstanding how precedent works in Italian law, ruling in favor of the prosecution here would implicitly acknowledge that whenever anything goes wrong that anyone could conceivably have predicted in Italy, that person is liable as if they had a duty to predict it and failed. At the very least it could be used to support future lawsuits along the same lines- survivors suing doctors every time a patient gets sick and dies of something they weren't warned of, and so on.
And, for that matter, it would seem to imply (in part) that I can just randomly ask people to give me a prediction about whether a disaster will happen and make them responsible for whatever happens to me if something goes wrong that they didn't warn me about.
When science and empiricism were repressed and supersition and make-beilieve nonsense ran rampant, it was the Dark Ages.
If the victims do indeed suffer at the claws of the kangaroo court, then at best this will hgihly discourage scientists - and a lot of other people - from even stayng in Italy, never mind working there. That's one of the last things Italy needs.
"A word of advice: next time you post, try not to inadvertently reveal why you've had no success with real women." Darth Wong to Bubble Boy
"I see you do not understand objectivity," said Tom Carder, a fundie fucknut to Darth Wong
TithonusSyndrome wrote:Is there no existing EU law or regulation on the books that could intervene to disrupt this absurd fucking trial? If the EU is worth half the high-minded lyricism printed about it by its fanboys about how it represents the great cultural standard of progress and refinement embodied by whatever composers and scientists and philosophers they feel would invoke sentimental thought by name-dropping, then the EU should be moving to draft laws that prohibit this disgraceful state populist witchhunting that isn't much distinguished from Lysenkoism.
Well, there is a tribunal to which you can appeal and possibly receive annulment of the verdict and/or damage repairs. Good luck doing that before some time in prison passes, though, and they might rule that this particular case is not in their jurisdiction (states rights and all...).
TithonusSyndrome wrote:Once again, amid a torrent of cries against the "nanny state" or "nanny superstate" as the case may be, the critics do little to demonstrate that they do not need a nanny.
Yeah? Seems to me that it's the state who is the one being fucking retarded in this case. As for the "superstate", that's perfectly capable of screwing things up too, albeit in other ways. Get off your fucking soap box.
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron
TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet
And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! -- Asuka
TithonusSyndrome wrote:Is there no existing EU law or regulation on the books that could intervene to disrupt this absurd fucking trial? If the EU is worth half the high-minded lyricism printed about it by its fanboys about how it represents the great cultural standard of progress and refinement embodied by whatever composers and scientists and philosophers they feel would invoke sentimental thought by name-dropping, then the EU should be moving to draft laws that prohibit this disgraceful state populist witchhunting that isn't much distinguished from Lysenkoism.
Once again, amid a torrent of cries against the "nanny state" or "nanny superstate" as the case may be, the critics do little to demonstrate that they do not need a nanny.
Yes, EU law will eventually get to hear this. However, thanks to the brits scrapping the basic rights charter, there is no direct way for the EU to interfere. Only after national law has been exhausted will EU law get to hear it.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------ My LPs
Lord Zentei wrote:Yeah? Seems to me that it's the state who is the one being fucking retarded in this case. As for the "superstate", that's perfectly capable of screwing things up too, albeit in other ways. Get off your fucking soap box.
And the state is never prone to witchhunts intended to satisfy public outrage about disasters, of course. It's not as though if people were better educated about the faulty premises under which these geologists are being tried, they would reject this scapegoating ploy altogether and return the blame to the government?
You want to blame the Italian government here, sure, fine, they're obviously being morons and that shouldn't require any elaboration. But if this honestly succeeds in keeping blame from them, then the public is more than a little in need of guidance, be it from a "nanny" or whatever happens to work.
TithonusSyndrome wrote:And the state is never prone to witchhunts intended to satisfy public outrage about disasters, of course.
Assuming that this is meant to be irony, that's kind of my point.
TithonusSyndrome wrote:It's not as though if people were better educated about the faulty premises under which these geologists are being tried, they would reject this scapegoating ploy altogether and return the blame to the government?
You want to blame the Italian government here, sure, fine, they're obviously being morons and that shouldn't require any elaboration. But if this honestly succeeds in keeping blame from them, then the public is more than a little in need of guidance, be it from a "nanny" or whatever happens to work.
IMHO, this is about corruption and shifting the blame, not about ignorance. The building codes in Italy were shit, the scientists explicitly said that they could not predict whether an earthquake would happen, and the authorities didn't evacuate the people. They're just trying to avoid culpability.
As for public gullibility, the public they might well be led to believe that the scientists withheld or misrepresented information, seeing as how Berlusconi is in control of all the media over there. Perhaps some Italian members here can elaborate.
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron
TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet
And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! -- Asuka
Lord Baal wrote:Savage beatings with science books could work... I for one volunteer.
One liners with litte to no content are a bit frowned upon here.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------ My LPs
Six Italian scientists and a government official have been sentenced to six years in prison over statements they made prior to a 2009 earthquake that killed 309 in the town of L'Aquila.
A year-long trial came to a close today (Oct. 22) with the verdict, which alarmed earth scientists worldwide.
"I hope the Italians realize how backwards they are in this L'Aquila trial and its verdict," Erik Klemetti, an assistant professor of geosciences at Denison University in Ohio, wrote on Twitter, adding that the verdict was a "terrible precedent."
According to prosecutors, the scientists and official downplayed the risks of a large quake in L'Aquila, Italy, after a series of tremors shook the city in early 2009. On April 6, 2009, a magnitude-6.3 quake hit, killing 309 people. L'Aquila's medieval architecture led to numerous building collapses during the quake. [See Photos of L'Aquila Earthquake Destruction]
It took Judge Marco Billi just more than four hours to reach a verdict, according to the BBC. The scientists were found guilty of multiple manslaughter.
At the controversial March 31 meeting in L'Aquila, earth scientist Enzo Boschi, a defendant in the case, acknowledged the uncertainty, calling a large earthquake "unlikely," but saying that the possibility could not be excluded. In a post-meeting press conference, however, Department of Civil Protection official Bernardo De Bernardinis, also a defendant, told citizens there was "no danger."
At the beginning of the trial in September 2011, U.S. earthquake scientists conveyed alarm at the idea of subjecting earthquake risk assessment to the criminal justice system.
"Our ability to predict earthquake hazards is, frankly, lousy," Seth Stein, a professor of Earth sciences at Northwestern University in Illinois, told LiveScience then. "Criminalizing something would only make sense if we really knew how to do this and someone did it wrong."
Knowing whether small quakes are foreshocks for a larger temblor is impossible, according to seismologists. A 1988 study of other quake-prone Italian regions found, for example, that about half of large quakes were preceded by weaker foreshocks. But only 2 percent of small quake swarms heralded a larger rupture.
What's next, suing the weather man because he failed to predict a rainy day? Not only it's idiotic at best, I can see it being highly counterproductive for future geologists. Because who'd want a job when they can end up in prison for making a bad prediction?
Got to love the double standard as well. Scientists are warning about global warming for years but are conveniently ignored for short term gains.
Italian scientists guilty of manslaughter in 2009 earthquake Scientists sentenced to six years in prison for insufficiently warning victims
CBC News
Posted: Oct 22, 2012 11:41 AM ET
Last Updated: Oct 22, 2012 11:57 AM ET
Experts charged in Italian quake warning failure
Seven scientists and experts on trial for manslaughter linked to an earthquake in Italy that killed more than 300 people have been convicted and sentenced to six years in prison, a court has ruled.
The victims of the earthquake in L'Aquila have also been awarded between €40,000 to €450,000 ($52,000 to $584,000 Cdn), said freelance journalist Megan Williams.
Italian prosecutors say that the scientists gave inaccurate and incomplete information about whether smaller tremors before the April 2009 quake should have been grounds for an official warning.
The 6.9 magnitude earthquake left 309 people dead and injured more than 1,500 others.
In Italy, convictions aren't definitive until after an appeals trial, so it is unlikely any of the defendants would face jail immediately.
The defence had argued it is impossible to predict quakes. Seismologists have long concurred, saying the technology doesn't exist to predict a quake and that no major temblor has ever been foretold.
However, prosecutors focused on a memo issued after a meeting of the Great Risks commission — a committee which the scientists were part of, and which evaluates potential for natural disasters — before the earthquake. The March 31, 2009 meeting was called because of mounting concerns about the months of seismic activity in the region.
According to the commission's memo, issued one week before the big quake, the experts concluded that it was "improbable" that there would be a major quake though it added that one couldn't be excluded.
Afterward, members of the commission gave reassuring interviews to local media stressing the impossibility of predicting quakes and that even six months worth of low-magnitude temblors was not unusual in the highly seismic region and didn't mean a big one was coming.
With files from the Associated Press
For fucks sake.
Saying smaller engines are better is like saying you don't want huge muscles because you wouldn't fit through the door. So what? You can bench 500. Fuck doors. - MadCat360