David Foster deadly serious about a new Star Trek series...

[Skylon]

I still think Nero's better than Shinzon, though. Hard-core procrastinator, that guy. At least Nero had the excuse for his 20-year inaction of having been captured by the Klingons. And he stays stoically at his station while the ship is breaking apart around him, whereas Shinzon is more like Baldrick in one of the Black Adder specials: "Baldrick, as I cannot be bothered to punch you, here is my fist. Kindly run into it." Moron.

Nero was at least actually threatening, and had a (somewhat) legit bone to pick. He was also a little different, as being basically a working class dude. Shit, answering Pike with "Hello Christopher, I'm Nero" was more menacing than Shinzon's "I'll mind rape Troi to show I'm evil!" crap. Shinzon made Sybok look like a great Trek villain.

[Multiverse]

What criterion could possibly be more important (or even anywhere near as important[/i]) as enjoyability? It's freaking entertainment.
It's one and only purpose (from the audience's point of view) is to entertain. Kinda hard to do if people don't enjoy what they're seeing.

Porn is enjoyable but I don't really think Star Trek the porn series would be a good idea.

[Batman]

Because it wouldn't be enjoyable you twit, at least not as regular Star Trek.

[Darth Tedious]

Personally, I thought the Star Trek pornos weren't too bad.

KIRK: Mister Sulu, set a parabolic course that will keep us from entering the neutral zone.

SULU: Sir, a straight line will also work.

KIRK: Parabolic, Mister Sulu! Wait... [pause] Elliptical.

SULU: Aye, Captain.

[Metahive]

Busting Vulcan had no real point to begin with, I think. What does that achieve, especially since the Vulcans are the ones who developed the black hole-generating red matter technobabble to begin with? No Vulcan = no way to save Romulus. Why not use the red matter to suck up the star that causes the whole mess in the first place, rather than going on some misguided crusade against the Federation?

Ooooo, but see he's insane and chaotic evil! His shit doesn't have to make sense other than giving the heroes something to react to!

I still think Nero's better than Shinzon, though. Hard-core procrastinator, that guy. At least Nero had the excuse for his 20-year inaction of having been captured by the Klingons. And he stays stoically at his station while the ship is breaking apart around him, whereas Shinzon is more like Baldrick in one of the Black Adder specials: "Baldrick, as I cannot be bothered to punch you, here is my fist. Kindly run into it." Moron.

He's a Khan-clone right down to the motive (THEY KILLED MY WIFE!!!111) and my main criticism is that the final confrontation with him is lame as hell. Why give him that stupid, oversized squid-ship when no decent space battle is to follow?

I think the film made it obvious Nero wasn't right in the head. Besides, didn't he say (I think it was to Pike, but I'm not sure) that he wanted to eliminate the Federation so that Romulus would be stronger?

Here's the obvious way to achieve that, hand the ship and its advanced tech over to the romulan government so they can refit their fleet with it. But no, he's INSAAAAAAAAAAAANE and out for VEEEEEEEEEENGEANCE so let's go and bust some planets with ridiculous black-hole goop instead.

Fuck that shit.

Nero was at least actually threatening, and had a (somewhat) legit bone to pick. He was also a little different, as being basically a working class dude. Shit, answering Pike with "Hello Christopher, I'm Nero" was more menacing than Shinzon's "I'll mind rape Troi to show I'm evil!" crap. Shinzon made Sybok look like a great Trek villain.

Neither was threatening, but Shinzon got a semi-decent spacebattle and Nero didn't even get a semi-decent fistfight.

[The Romulan Republic]

Actually, while I think you're far too hard on the 2009 film, I do agree that its disappointing we didn't get a proper space battle at the end. At least we got to see a starting battle with the Kelvin, but it would have been nice to see Narada and Enterprise really go toe to toe.

[Iroscato]

Actually, while I think you're far too hard on the 2009 film, I do agree that its disappointing we didn't get a proper space battle at the end. At least we got to see a starting battle with the Kelvin, but it would have been nice to see Narada and Enterprise really go toe to toe.

But a straight battle between the two would've ended exactly the same way as Kelvin vs. Narada...the Narada is about 120 years ahead of the Enterprise technologically so would have happily ripped the shit out of it. I liked the climactic battle, because it showed they were fairly hopelessly outmatched in terms of technology, but didn't need to just flex their muscles to win.

[The Romulan Republic]

I wonder. The Kelvin was a much older vessel and it still managed to hold Narada off for some minutes and then cripple it in a ramming attack. Nero and his crew were not actual soldiers, either. Of course, Nero was able to smash six Federation ships earlier, but maybe those were mostly transports or science ships or obsolete designs?

[Metahive]

But a straight battle between the two would've ended exactly the same way as Kelvin vs. Narada...the Narada is about 120 years ahead of the Enterprise technologically so would have happily ripped the shit out of it. I liked the climactic battle, because it showed they were fairly hopelessly outmatched in terms of technology, but didn't need to just flex their muscles to win.

They won because of that stupid black-hole goop that functions differently every time it's deployed (sometimes it's a portal to another reality, sometimes a hyper-destructive space vacuum). Anti-climactic is the word that comes to mind. The Reliant was taken out by a surprise maneuver, the Scimitar by a daring ramming attack and the squid-ship through magical goo. Shitty villain, shitty defeat, at least it's symmetrical.

I wonder. The Kelvin was a much older vessel and it still managed to hold Narada off for some minutes and then cripple it in a ramming attack. Nero and his crew were not actual soldiers, either. Of course, Nero was able to smash six Federation ships earlier, but maybe those were mostly transports or science ships or obsolete designs?

The were defeated easily because they were nothing but throwaway fodder to show how "badass" the squid-ship is. Off screen at that, so we could get more scenes of maladjusted Kirk's "funny" shenanigans instead.

Did I mention how much I hate the writing in that movie?

[edaw1982]

The 2009 movie was alright, just wish that they'd come up with a better explaination for everyone being on the same ship in the same professions, and hell even the same ranks without the whole "History-Abhors-a-Paradox-landing-on-the-edge-of-a-coin" schtick.

That, and Kirk instantly becoming Captain, at the end of the movie, at least not without a 'X-years-later'.

Nice to see that Spock has mellowed out with the whole 'Screwing with Timelines' thing. Then again, the timeline is irrevocably and truly boned what with the destruction of Vulcan.

[Enigma]

<snip> Wrong topic.

[Jim Raynor]

I didn't hate the 2009 movie, but IMO it's one of the most massively overrated movies in recent years. Mainstream audiences loved it, ST fans credit it with "saving" the franchise, and critics gave it an astounding 94% score on Rotten Tomatoes. It's also had one of the most blatantly contrived plots ever, as others in this thread have already explained.

My biggest problem was Kirk himself. The entire movie was built on the premise of this guy being awesome and destined for greatness. Captain Pike appoints Kirk to be his second in command for no apparent reason, when Kirk was a cadet who wasn't even supposed to be on the ship. Old Spock comes up with a ridiculously stupid and contrived plan for Kirk to provoke and humiliate his younger self, just because he thinks Kirk is so much better. McCoy tells young Spock that Kirk is their "championship racehorse" or something, and that he was a fool not to listen to him.

We're told over and over again how great Kirk is...and he doesn't accomplish anything that the other characters couldn't have done. He gets beat up on the drill, and Sulu has to save him. He boards the enemy ship and shoots a few nobodies on the way to saving Captain Pike, but it was Spock who actually hijacks Old Spock's ship and saves Earth from destruction. 2009 Kirk was the biggest case of "informed attributes" that I can remember seeing, ever.

[The Romulan Republic]

What Kirk had was shear daring and determination, a refusal to give up when anyone else would see the situation as hopeless. This is shown in the barfight where he first meets Pike, and reinforced by the Kobiyashi Maru and the subsequent hearing. This, combined with a bit of personal favouritism, explains why Pike promotes him. Spock helps Kirk take control from his younger self probably due to a combination of guilt, nostalgia, and knowledge of Kirk's future from the alternate timeline. So his actions are understandable. And to be fair, Spock really wasn't fit for command under the circumstances.

[Prannon]

I always felt that the 2009 movie was about Spock, even though it said that it was about Kirk. That dissonance confuses a lot of people, but think about it. Our main character is obviously Kirk from the opening scene to the end, and he is the character we follow throughout the entire film. But who gets the most development? Who goes through the most emotional trials and distressing moments? Who actually changes by the end?

There was that flaw, and the obvious flaws in the script and in the plot. On the other hand, I thought that the film was much different than anything previously in the franchise because it dared BIG things. Primarily destroying Vulcan. That's BIG. Also, the new look and the fresh attitudes. Was it great? Eh, not really. Definitely not cerebral. Entertaining? Sure. Does it make us think about the next film? Very yes! By those standards, I think it was a very successful production.

[edaw1982]

/\

That makes a lot more sense, actually.
As to the thing about Kirk's informed attributes. The "real" Kirk has always been able to utilize his crew and bring out the best in them, and inspiring a fanatical loyalty (hence why they've been so quick to throw their careers to the winds, every time the enterprise needs "borrowing".)

So the fact that everyone else did well, and Kirk was able to use his good 'ol farmboy charisma to ride that success? Well, that's not exactly a change for Kirk, especially "angry-because-my-dad-died" Kirk, who has even less of a stabilizing influence in his life.

[Anacronian]

I loved the first 15 min of the 2009 Trek film and thought the rest was utter bullshit, If they made a trek series out of Kirk's dad serving on the Kelvin i would be a Trek fan for the first time in my life.

[edaw1982]

What I don't get is Robau's epic-meme status?
Is it because he went onto the Narada despite knowing he was througherly screwed, or is it just a case of 'sexy-bald-black-man' syndrome?

[Skylon]

What I don't get is Robau's epic-meme status?
Is it because he went onto the Narada despite knowing he was througherly screwed, or is it just a case of 'sexy-bald-black-man' syndrome?

He attained meme status? I mean, he didn't come across as incompetent or psychotic, as a lot of Starfleet Captains have in the past. He just had the shit luck of running into a ship from 150 years in the future that had the gut reaction of seeing his ship and shooting at it. Although I did dig that when he went over the the Narada that he had the stones to say "Ask Captain Nero, what gives him the right to attack a Federation vessel?"

[Crazedwraith]

I liked Robau. The only other time I've seen that actor is as the head terrorist in Iron Man. So having a Middle Eastern man as the first Starship Captain we see is our equivalent of Chekov on the bridge of the Enterprise.

[TheHammer]

Bullshit of the highest order, at least 09 mostly made sense

"Made sense?" The whole story turned on the most blatant piece of Plot Convenience Theatre ever seen in a Star Trek film: Kirk just managing to get himself tossed off the Enterprise onto the remote planet on which Old Spock just happened to get dumped onto by Nero Whiplash, which just happened to have Scotty exiled there as well, who just happened to have been working on a new mega-transporter, which just happened to be ready for use at the very moment Kirk needed to get back to the Enterprise. Take any one element out of that loop and the movie falls apart like a cheap suit in the rain.

I've seen better written fanfiction.

The thing you have to remember, is that the "Many Worlds Theory" is a canon fact of the Trek Universe.

The movie was about the universe where those events did just happen to occur. It is worth noting that this implies that there are other universes where Kirk doesn't land on the moon, or dies there. Or there is no scotty and he is marrooned with Spock etc. But those don't make for a good movie.

[Batman]

Falling back on 'well technically anything could happen' is just an admission that the story doesn't work otherwise.

[TheHammer]

Falling back on 'well technically anything could happen' is just an admission that the story doesn't work otherwise.

It goes beyond "anything could happen". It is a canon star trek fact that anything that can happen does happen, therefore the likliehood of an event happening is irrelevent. The movies are about the universe where that sequence of events happens.

Besides, I think picking apart the story because of coincidences you could do the same to just about any movie out there. After all, the red R2 unit just HAPPENED to short circuit causing Luke to suggest R2D2 who then just happens to leave off the restraining bolt allowing him to head off to find Obiwan. Without that, the whole story falls apart.

[StarSword]

After all, the red R2 unit just HAPPENED to short circuit causing Luke to suggest R2D2 who then just happens to leave off the restraining bolt allowing him to head off to find Obiwan. Without that, the whole story falls apart.

Actually, I distinctly remember reading in one of the books (might've been the Essential Guide to Droids) that Artoo talked the R5 unit into letting Artoo program him to blow his motivator, just in case the Jawas sold Threepio and Artoo separately.

I agree though: the same "plot conveniences" argument can be applied to other movies that don't typically get said criticism. It's just that the conveniences in ST11 seem more obtrusive than in ANH.

[Stofsk]

After all, the red R2 unit just HAPPENED to short circuit causing Luke to suggest R2D2 who then just happens to leave off the restraining bolt allowing him to head off to find Obiwan. Without that, the whole story falls apart.

Actually, I distinctly remember reading in one of the books (might've been the Essential Guide to Droids) that Artoo talked the R5 unit into letting Artoo program him to blow his motivator, just in case the Jawas sold Threepio and Artoo separately.

I agree though: the same "plot conveniences" argument can be applied to other movies that don't typically get said criticism. It's just that the conveniences in ST11 seem more obtrusive than in ANH.

You can go back even further in the movie to the part where the escape pod was launched out of the Tantive IV. All that LT gunner had to do was order his men to fire regardless of the no life sign reading and boom, end of film. EDIT Shit even the part where artoo and threepio cross the corridor between the crossfire. One hit from one of those blasters and that too would have ended it.

If Star Trek '09's plot contrivances seem obtrusive it might be as a result of poor drafting of the script. IIRC the writer's guild strike was going on during the production phase of the film and it could easily have accounted for a lot of this stuff.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, maybe the strike interfered. Of course, they aren't going to have that excuse for the next film, are they? So I expect a screenplay with less in the way of plot holes this time around.