Need evolution help again...

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Strafe
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Need evolution help again...

Post by Strafe »

http://transfans2.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/014636-3.html

(btw I'm Computron)
Originally posted by Computron:

"Hoyle compared evolution to a tornado whipping through a junkyard and assembling a complete airplane."

Hoyle was an idiot. Evolution theory proposes nothing remotely comparable to such a feat. We know from experiment that a primitive RNA molecule can reproduce itself, thus starting the entire process of evolution, so we only had to come up with a single RNA molecule, not what we think of as an organism today.


Well whoopdie do! Look, and RNA molocule can Clone itself, WOW! That REALLY explains where eyes, hearts, and the fact that it stays together came from. An RNA molocule can clone itself, thus making more RNA molocules. Yep. How do we get a living organism out of that? Please Compy.


The only remaining unknown is the origin of that primitive RNA molecule (perhaps from even simpler organic self-replicators), and all the complex building blocks for that molecule (amino acids and proteins) are known to have existed in the environment of primeval Earth.

Yeah, but they couldn't have been ut together without intervention. But I wont go there.


If we must use Hoyle's stupid airplane analogy, we should be asking ourselves if natural processes could possibly make something which vaguely resembles one of the turbine blades, rather than the complete airplane. All we need to start the game is a molecule, without any of the interdependent systems, membranes, or other structures we associate with even the simplest machine or modern bacteria.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationis ... kies.shtml


You know... that was..... stupid. See that bit about RNA. Even if you do make a propellor, now you have to get the entire rest of the plane, weeee.

Compy, your crapping out this time. Wheres those arguing skills your so good at?
Ugh, in time I'll get good enough at this where I don't need to run for help...but in the meantime...
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Frank Hipper
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Post by Frank Hipper »

The only remaining unknown is the origin of that primitive RNA molecule (perhaps from even simpler organic self-replicators), and all the complex building blocks for that molecule (amino acids and proteins) are known to have existed in the environment of primeval Earth.

Yeah, but they couldn't have been ut together without intervention. But I wont go there.
Intervention is a baseless assumption. Then he backs out by saying he won't go there. Hammer him on that one 'til he screams at least.
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Joe
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Post by Joe »

Well whoopdie do! Look, and RNA molocule can Clone itself, WOW! That REALLY explains where eyes, hearts, and the fact that it stays together came from. An RNA molocule can clone itself, thus making more RNA molocules. Yep. How do we get a living organism out of that? Please Compy.
Explain how we get a living organism out of divine creation. And no one is saying that an RNA molecule automatically becomes life; it takes a long time. The larger organs evolve from more primitive organs; they don't just appear out of nowhere!
Yeah, but they couldn't have been ut together without intervention. But I wont go there.
Right. "I'm too stupid to explain how this works, so obviously God did it!"
You know... that was..... stupid. See that bit about RNA. Even if you do make a propellor, now you have to get the entire rest of the plane, weeee.

Compy, your crapping out this time. Wheres those arguing skills your so good at?
There are holes in evolutionary biology; it's not perfect, there's a lot we don't understand yet. However it's certainly a hell of a lot more plausible than your theory.

Also taken from Wong:

Besides, creationist statistics are nonsense. In 1953, Miller and Urey demonstrated that primeval chemicals and lightning would spontaneously produce amino acids despite the dire statistical predictions of creationists. In 1982, Thomas Cech of the University of Colorado demonstrated that primitive RNA molecules could reproduce without outside assistance or special enzymes, despite the dire statistical predictions of creationists (he would win the Nobel prize for this). What makes you trust the dire predictions of creationists now?
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I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
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Strafe
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Post by Strafe »

Thanks! :)
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Ravencrow
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Post by Ravencrow »

Actually there is a hypothesis that RNA existed before DNA.

J Mol Evol 1988;27(4):283-90 Related Articles, Links

The evolutionary transition from RNA to DNA in early cells.

Lazcano A, Guerrero R, Margulis L, Oro J.

Departamento de Microbiologia, Escuela Nacional de Ciencias Biologicas, IPN, Mexico, Distrito Federal.

The evolution of genetic material can be divided into at least three major phases: first, genomes of "nucleic acid-like" molecules; secondly, genomes of RNA; and finally, double-stranded DNA genomes such as those present in all contemporary cells. Using properties of nucleic acid molecules, we attempt to explain the evolutionary transition from RNA alone as a cellular informational macromolecule prior to the evolution of cell systems based on double-stranded DNA. The idea that ribonucleic acid-based cellular genomes preceded DNA is based on the following: (1) protein synthesis can occur in the absence of DNA but not of RNA; (2) RNA molecules have some catalytic properties; (3) the ubiquity of purine and pyridine nucleotide coenzymes as well as other similar ribonucleotide cofactors in metabolic pathways; and (4) the fact that the biosynthesis of deoxyribonucleotides always proceeds via the enzymatic reduction of ribonucleotides. The "RNA prior to DNA" hypothesis can be further developed by understanding the selective pressures that led to the biosynthesis of deoxyribose, thymine, and proofreading DNA polymerases. Taken together these observations suggest to us that DNA was selected as an informational molecule in cells to stabilize earlier RNA-protein replicating systems
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Post by Ravencrow »

Show him that. I like to use Pubmed to search for such articles: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed

:)
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Exonerate
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Post by Exonerate »

:lol:
Is this fool expecting a human to pop out of a few molecules of RNA? You have to start small... Archaebacteria are probably the most primitive forms of life now. They can tolerate extreme environments, metabolize weird stuff... You've already got the amino acids and RNA, the necessary ingredients to life. It's just a matter of chance...

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Cyborg Stan
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Post by Cyborg Stan »

Ugh. It's too late at night to type out a decent response to this sucker. Just note that complexity is not something that happens overnight. Also keep this in mind - if he makes you explain how everything could evolve, he could win simply by wearing you out. So, if you use these, keep hammering him at the same time.

Getting a heart is relatively easy. In small creatures, you can transfer nutrients and waste easily enough by diffusion. For instance, moss does not have the more complex systems of trees and grasses, and thus does not grow as tall. Having a system of tubes throughout your body can make nutrient transport easier than having to go through millions of cell membranes, and isn't too complex. With a real primitive animal, you can pump the fluid simply by moving. (That's part of the reason why you're instructed to squeeze your fist when you're giving blood.) All a heart is a special piece of muscle that wraps around a piece of vessel and pumps by itself. Not a difficult thing to alcomplish. More complex hearts go from that depending on metabolism requirements. A two chambered heart is as easy as a flap of muscle growing in, it has the advantage of better efficency. You see this in fish. Three-chambered hearts I believe are in some reptiles, like crocodiles. Four-chambered hearts are in mammals, with high (try 9x the metabolism of a similiarly-sized cold-blood creature) metabolisms, and probably birds as well.

Use the below page to show how an eye can evolve. It has nice pictures that are hard for even him to miss. Note that all an eyespot has to be is a patch with photosenstive chemicals, something that might have even come about unintentionally. It could be as simple as the organism knowing that active chemicals in that region == GUD and simply start swimming faster when the chemicals in that region are inactive, thus ensuring it would stay more in sunny regions. This behavior is a simple one that does not even require a sense of direction to pull off. (Sow, Pill Bugs, or Woodlice use a similar mechanism for clumping up - they move like crazy when in hot, dry, or sunny places but slow down in dark, damp places. This ensures they conserve water, and also means they end up clumping together in large groups, further conserving water due to less overall surface area exposed.)
http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~lindsay/cre ... tages.html

Hands are simple. To propell oneself through water, you can use muscles throughout the entire body, like worms. A worm that is slightly flat along one side gets to be a bit paddle-like. Having a flap of muscle that goes out is also a very, very simple thing to do, espically by accident. However, it also moves water quite effectively, and given that embyro formation often makes it that it's symmetric on both sides anyway, you got simple fins - which makes you move even faster. Even with the relative awkwardness that an early fin might present, it is not hard to see how this would be a huge advantage in gaining another unspoiled niche and now you have something like fish. (Mind you, eels and lampreys don't even have flatish-bodies, but oh well.) Now, to get hands first you get legs, which makes me wonder if it would have made more sense to explain this in a backwards chronological order. Too late now, I guess but this should be easy enough to reverse if you understand it. Now, we can note that fins themselves can act in a leg-like fashion - see a modern mudskipper today. But let's stay in the water a bit longer. Now, one way of life is to lurk at the bottom of the water near some rocks. In fast-moving rivers and streams, it could be advantagous to keep a hold of some rocks to anchor your position - it takes much less effort than swimming in place in this case, and you can stay as still as the rock itself. You can grip better with stronger fins and more fleshy fins, so a population of these animals with this type of lifestyle would get something resemlbing stubby hands. Going back to water/land dwellers, we see that fins themselves do not support weight too well on land, since you no longer have the bounancy of water working for you. In order to move around on land more freely, you need stronger limbs. Less bendable cartilige would provide a better anchor for muscles to pull against, and bone itself that far off from cartilige. I suppose you have to trade off some hydrodyamics for this, but this is far outweighed by the fact you can exploit a new niche by yourself. In any case, by simple matter of degree you get legs - vertical, bony, and muscular. Hands are only a short trip away. (One may note that humans are actually more or less still quadrapeds very early in life, although it's obvious the bone and muscle structure does not make this feasible later in life.) With tree-dwelling animals which you can can simply by running up a tree - you grip the tree as much as you run on it. Look at your average squirrel - claws to help grip the tree, feet that can presumably open and close to grip better - hell, you can even see them standing on the hind legs and eating using their forelimbs! I guess I can stop with the explanation of hands here.
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Post by Cyborg Stan »

In any case, here's the basic scenario on complex structures - you can have a simple structure to start off with. Exact function does not matter, just that it is advantageous to an organism's survival. You add another thing to it. Again, exact function does not matter - it could either make it useful for an entirely different purpose or make the current one more efficent, both or even one at the expense of another. As it gets more and more profient and adds structures to it, random mutations can bump off redunant ones, that while nessaray for eariler generations simply takes up more resources than it's worth now. And thus you would get the current incarnation of said organ.

Key concepts : The function and enviroment of a structure can change through generations, and thus does not have to be useful for what the modern organism uses it for. Also, redunant strutures can be eliminated, even though for previous organisms they were cruical.
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Post by Cyborg Stan »

I'll probably end up having to tackle abiogenesis, unicelluar bacteria->multicellar differentiated cell organisms, as well as a fictional example I'm preparing tomorrow. I'll just note for now it seems that your quoting system on that forum makes for a hard read.
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Post by Sir Sirius »

That particular fundie seems like he likes to play the age old game of: "Explain how <insert any feature encountered in nature> could possibly have evolved through natural evolution."

Since, for all practical purposes, there is an infinite number of possible features to choose from there will never be an end to that game if you choose to play it. I'd just remind of the correct burden of proof here, ToE is a mainstream scientific theory excepted by the vast majority of the scientific community, since creationists are swimming against the stream here the burden of proof is on him. The fact that he is ignorant of how an eye or sexual reproduction could have evolved is not an arqument at all. Actualy it is just a weak attempt to shift the burden of proof.
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