Doctor Who S32E12 "Closing Time"

[Lord_Of_Change 9]

Objective Interim Spoiler Policy: All prior episodes of Doctor Who up to and including this one may be discussed without spoilers. Recent EU publications and upcoming episodes must be spoiler tagged and labelled. Previews (as released on BBC, website, etc) of the next episode are not spoilers, nor is speculation derived from them.

[Revy]

5

And I got the first vote in! That's a first for me. Great episode, really liked it. And despite the impending River episode I'm actually looking forwards to the next one. Good stuff.

[Atlan]

Meh. The parts where he talked with the baby were the best bits.

And fuck, I know it's logical, but another River Song episode coming up. Let's hope that this shit gets laid to rest already.

[The Romulan Republic]

I honestly don't mind River herself. I have disliked the River Song story this season, but that's not a problem with the character. Its because the episodes in that arc were contrived, confusing, rushed, turned the Doctor into an unsympathetic character, and strained suspension of disbelief. In other words, because they were badly written drivel. The story arc this season sucks balls, but River herself is fine.

[Bedlam]

I'm rather torn, I liked the first half which was mostly the Doctor being silly and talking to Stormaggedon (I'm sure babies really do divide the world into Mum, not Mum and Pesants). The cybermat was quite good looking although the jaws were a bit cartoony and it really didn't like convincing when it was suposed to be attacking people, it should have had a longer tail to actually grab people with but it was just overshadowed by the Doctor moping about going to die. Then there was the last 10 minutes or so, I was convinced for a few seconds that this was going to be the darkest show ever and not Mum was going to be cyberdised and the doctor have to put him out of his misery but no once again the day was saved by the power of love (clever Stormaggedon knowing just when to start crying to attract not mum). If this sort of thing happened once a series or less I think I'd be Ok with it but it just seems to be to common now and more Emo Doctor.

A gave it a 4 but I'd probably think 3.5 might be more appropriate maybe if the basic story had been drafted again it would have been a 5.

[Rassilon]

I didn't really like this one as the cybermen barely did anything. Their only accomplishment is get the kid to call his father dad. Disapointed.

[DarkSilver]

I liked this. There was moments of Emo Doc, and we get a wrap up to this long, tangled, twisted and oft-times, boring season arc.

Interesting that the Silence were always tagging along and following River. Also helps explain why Mels didn't have the memory of killing the Doctor as a girl.

[Broomstick]

Question: What time in the UK (GMT) is Doctor Who broadcast?

[DarkSilver]

it plays at 1pm CST in the US......so that's 6pm GMT? I think

[Starglider]

The production this season seems to obesessed with getting a positive emotional response out of the viewers at any cost; plot credibility, villain credibilty, protagonist likability, twenty minutes of sentimental padding per episode, whatever it takes. The cybermen were a joke in this episode and I agree that it would have been vastly more powerful (and plausible) if the conversion was irreversible, but the dad held onto his last shred of humanity long enough to self-destruct the ship. That would also have given the Doctor a very plausible reason to be resigned to death.

[Bedlam]

Question: What time in the UK (GMT) is Doctor Who broadcast?

This week was 7:10, it tends to vary from about 7-7:30.

[Revy]

Question: What time in the UK (GMT) is Doctor Who broadcast?

7:10pm here in Scotland.

Whilst it wasn't the best plot or script ever, I really enjoyed it. I love seeing Eleven when he's around kids, he's great with them. Babies too. And despite their efforts to cram in more emo Doctor this episode they still managed to keep it light and fun enough to watch.

Really though, show of hands - who here thinks the Doctor is actually going to properly die? Anyone?

I know it's hard to convincingly create suspense on some shows, to convey that the bad guys might actually stand a chance of winning and that irreversable damage might be done, but the least convincing thing is the threat that the title lead character of the show will die, especially when you know they're cast for next season.

I'll give them this though, I haven't the faintest idea what's going to happen next. Whatever they do next episode, I can't complain that it'll be predictable, because I can't even guess at this point.

[Captain Seafort]

Question: What time in the UK (GMT) is Doctor Who broadcast?

Depends on which week it is. Today it was 7:10 (6:10 GMT).

[The Romulan Republic]

What is it with criticizing the Doctor for being "emo"?

Has it occurred to anyone besides me that the Doctor has really, really fucking good reasons to be depressed and self-loathing and it would be abnormal if he wasn't? Let's see:

-His entire species is extinct, mostly by his hand.

-He's been fighting unspeakable monsters for a very long time.

-Many of his friends have come to very bad ends.

-His best friends' child was abducted and brainwashed for the express purpose of destroying him.

-There is an interstellar conspiracy that views him as a monster and is dedicated to destroying him.

Frankly, it should strain our suspension of disbelief that the Doctor didn't commit suicide years ago.

[Revy]

What is it with criticizing the Doctor for being "emo"?

I think it's mostly just shorthand for the Doctor angsting a lot lately. Woe is me because I'm dangerous and bad things happen to people near me! Even though that was true for all of my last incarnations and I didn't mope this much then. Woe is me because I'm going to die - again! Only I've cheated death so many times I've lost count and this will be no exception. And so on.

Point is, we get enough moody angsting protagonists in other tv shows, and I'm sick of it. I like Doctor Who because it's normally a fun, silly adventure romp that doesn't pour on the angst. Now Eleven is starting to go the way Tennant did towards the end of his run. Not quite that bad - yet.

-His entire species is extinct, mostly by his hand.

It was them or the universe. If I found out that humanity was going to destroy the universe and I had destroy humanity to save everything else, I'd do it as well.

-He's been fighting unspeakable monsters for a very long time.

And he's probably had more vacation time than most superheroes ever get, not to mention the pick of any place or time he wants to go to unwind and have fun. It's just that the tv show focuses on the monsters over the good fun times because ... it's a tv show and people want action and drama, not watching the Doctor sit on an alien beach watching five suns set whilst drinking a cola.

-Many of his friends have come to very bad ends.

I'm only really familiar with the new version of the show, but off the top of my head his recent companions:
*Rose is in an alternate universe with a clone of the Doctor she can sex up, and both of her parents alive and well.
*Martha seemed fine last we saw of her as well. Didn't she get married or something?
*Donna had her memory wiped and has to live an ordinary normal life. Boohoo. Wasn't there also a lottery ticket thrown in there at some point?
*Amy and Rory got a house and a car and kids are asking for Amy's autograph. Yeah ... sucks to be them.

-His best friends' child was abducted and brainwashed for the express purpose of destroying him.

Which lasted all of five minutes before she brought him back from the dead and became sweet on him to the point of flirting with him every time she meets him whilst helping him to save the world or whatever. Yeah, I'm so feeling his pain on that one ...

-There is an interstellar conspiracy that views him as a monster and is dedicated to destroying him.

... and that is different from the million or so other enemies he's faced ... how? Interstellar alien menaces routinely view him as an enemy that must be exterminated at all costs. It's not exactly anything new to him. At most this new group are trying to make out they are the good guys and he's the villain, but considering their recent act of vandalism consisted of blowing up the universe itself I'd call hypocrisy on the bastards were I the Doctor.

[mr friendly guy]

Give it a one. The villains are defeated by the power of love (hey wasn't that an 80s song?). At least RTD had a DEM involving the time vortex.

All I can say is they better give us a pay off for next weeks finale.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think it's mostly just shorthand for the Doctor angsting a lot lately. Woe is me because I'm dangerous and bad things happen to people near me! Even though that was true for all of my last incarnations and I didn't mope this much then. Woe is me because I'm going to die - again! Only I've cheated death so many times I've lost count and this will be no exception. And so on.

Are you serious? Ten went on about it quite a lot too.

I can't speak for the older Doctors, not being as familiar with them.

Regarding his death, while it is true he has often avoided death before, hasn't it been stated that this one is one of those "fixed points" he can't change? Kind of different from his earlier dangers, where there was merely the possibility of death, not the apparent certainty of it.

Point is, we get enough moody angsting protagonists in other tv shows, and I'm sick of it. I like Doctor Who because it's normally a fun, silly adventure romp that doesn't pour on the angst. Now Eleven is starting to go the way Tennant did towards the end of his run. Not quite that bad - yet.

Doctor Who has always had its darker moments. To deny this is to deny much of the history of the series.

It was them or the universe. If I found out that humanity was going to destroy the universe and I had destroy humanity to save everything else, I'd do it as well.

Okay, maybe you might do it, but would you be happy about? Would it not depress you knowing that you were the last of your species? That you were personally one of the greatest mass-murderers in history? You're seriously telling me that wouldn't bother you at all?

And he's probably had more vacation time than most superheroes ever get, not to mention the pick of any place or time he wants to go to unwind and have fun. It's just that the tv show focuses on the monsters over the good fun times because ... it's a tv show and people want action and drama, not watching the Doctor sit on an alien beach watching five suns set whilst drinking a cola.

Vacations now and then aren't going to wipe away the memory of seeing innocent people, including friends, get tortured and murdered in front of you.

I'm only really familiar with the new version of the show, but off the top of my head his recent companions:
*Rose is in an alternate universe with a clone of the Doctor she can sex up, and both of her parents alive and well.
*Martha seemed fine last we saw of her as well. Didn't she get married or something?
*Donna had her memory wiped and has to live an ordinary normal life. Boohoo. Wasn't there also a lottery ticket thrown in there at some point?
*Amy and Rory got a house and a car and kids are asking for Amy's autograph. Yeah ... sucks to be them.

Okay, they mostly came out okay in the end. A lot of horrible things happened to them first though.

Which lasted all of five minutes before she brought him back from the dead and became sweet on him to the point of flirting with him every time she meets him whilst helping him to save the world or whatever. Yeah, I'm so feeling his pain on that one ...

River probably had a pretty shitty childhood though. And the fact that it all worked out in the end didn't make it any less traumatic or hurtful at the time.

... and that is different from the million or so other enemies he's faced ... how? Interstellar alien menaces routinely view him as an enemy that must be exterminated at all costs. It's not exactly anything new to him. At most this new group are trying to make out they are the good guys and he's the villain, but considering their recent act of vandalism consisted of blowing up the universe itself I'd call hypocrisy on the bastards were I the Doctor.

Fair enough, I suppose. But even without that, he's seen, done, and been the victim of a lot of horrible things.

[Big Orange]

-Many of his friends have come to very bad ends.

I'm only really familiar with the new version of the show, but off the top of my head his recent companions:
*Rose is in an alternate universe with a clone of the Doctor she can sex up, and both of her parents alive and well.
*Martha seemed fine last we saw of her as well. Didn't she get married or something?
*Donna had her memory wiped and has to live an ordinary normal life. Boohoo. Wasn't there also a lottery ticket thrown in there at some point?
*Amy and Rory got a house and a car and kids are asking for Amy's autograph. Yeah ... sucks to be them.

In "Let's Kill Hitler" the Doctor still felt he failed his last few comparatively recent companions when the TARDIS showed a holographic projection of them. On average how much darker was the fate of the Doctor's much earlier companions from the 60s, 70s, and 80s? Although in last year's The Sarah Jane Adventures when Sarah catches up with another companion from the 70s (Jo Jones/Grant) Jo says how many ex-companions from decades ago are running charities or taking part in benign political/social causes.

And the theme carrying on since the 10th Doctor is how the Doctor could be seen as some kind of intergalatic god of death and war, but is also described by an ignorant Earth companion how wonderful he is in saving the day.

[Parallax]

Off the top of my head, only two companions have died on the Doctor's watch;
Sarah Kingdom (who barely counts anyhow) and Adric (most people cheered at that one).

Most of his companions seems to have gone on to lead happy lives once they've left the TARDIS, with some (such as Ian and Barbara) apparently getting some rather nice added benefits.

[Revy]

Are you serious? Ten went on about it quite a lot too.

I know, and I even said as much. I don't think I was the only one sick of Ten's moodiness by the end of his run. Eleven was a breath of fresh air by that point. Only now ...

Regarding his death, while it is true he has often avoided death before, hasn't it been stated that this one is one of those "fixed points" he can't change? Kind of different from his earlier dangers, where there was merely the possibility of death, not the apparent certainty of it.

Oh please. The Doctor himself gave one of those 'fixed points' the finger during the Waters of Mars, and in this case all he has to do is save himself whilst still making it appear to play out the way everyone thinks it did. I've seen him pull off smarter stunts than that before. Besides, last season finale he flung himself into the big bang certain it would be his end, and he did so with a smile. He was even able to bring himself back from that by planting a suggestion in Amy's mind. Surviving Lake Silencio should be a piece of cake to him after that.

Doctor Who has always had its darker moments. To deny this is to deny much of the history of the series.

Darker moments I have no problem with. Dark, moody angsty entire story arcs I do. Like I said, it's not as bad as Ten got towards the end of his run, but it's getting there, and when it gets to be like that it bugs me. This most recent episode hit a fine balance for me, the episode before this one not so much. As long as they continue to mix the light with the dark I'm okay with it, but I don't want Doctor Who to descend into Stargate Universe levels of dark mopiness.

Okay, maybe you might do it, but would you be happy about? Would it not depress you knowing that you were the last of your species? That you were personally one of the greatest mass-murderers in history? You're seriously telling me that wouldn't bother you at all?

Vacations now and then aren't going to wipe away the memory of seeing innocent people, including friends, get tortured and murdered in front of you.

No, but time heals, and a time traveller has all the time in world. Well ... sometimes the writers forget that and have idiocy like End of Time, where the Doctor has to race back to our modern earth to stop the Master as if everything is running on San Dimas Time, despite other instances where he clearly uses time travel as you'd expect, ie cleaning up the mess in this recent episode.

Point is though, he's a nigh immortal time traveller that can have as much down time as he wants to recover from his latest brush with monsters, and he's always shown himself capable of coping with much more than any normal human. Out of universe, I'm willing to suspend disbelief for the sake of having an entertaining and bearable protagonist to watch rather than a moody, depressive gloomy gus.

River probably had a pretty shitty childhood though.

Yeah. Growing up alongside your parents in a quaint English village is pretty shitty.

... okay, but really, I find it extremely hard to feel sympathy for that irritating, smug, smarmy woman, and however bad she was treated she's not exactly a walking trauma victim. Besides, given what we know of the Silence, all it would take for them to brainwash her would be to tell her to do something and then walk away. Not nice, but a far cry from horrendous abuse.

And the theme carrying on since the 10th Doctor is how the Doctor could be seen as some kind of intergalatic god of death and war, but is also described by an ignorant Earth companion how wonderful he is in saving the day.

I know I keep harping on about this, but just lately we saw the Silence blow up the universe and the Doctor save the universe at the apparent cost of his own life. How people can twist that into 'Silence = Good Guys fighting evil Doctor Monster" is beyond me. Granted the Doctor is no saint, but I don't have enough fingers on my hands to tick off the number of times he has categorically saved Earth, the universe and the day in general.

[Bedlam]

Companion fates: -

Original series
Ian Returned home a few years after he left
Barbera Returned home a few years after she left
Susan Doctor decided to leave her behind on a post Dalek invasion earth with her boyfriend
Viki Left at the fall of Troy with her boyfriend
Katrina Killed when blown out of an airlock
Sarah kingdom Aged to death
Steven Left to rule over a far future society
Dodo Decided to return to her own time after a bad case of mind control
Polly Returned home at the same time she left.
Ben Returned home at the same time he left.
Victoria Decided to live in the 20th century
Jamie Mind wiped and returned to his own time.
Zoe Mind Wiped and returned to her own time.
Liz Decided to leave UNIT
Jo Decided to leave UNIT and got married
Sarah Kicked off the TARDIS and left in the wrong city in her own time.
Leela Stayed on Gallifrey with her boyfriend
K9-1 Stayed on Gallifrey with Leela
Romana Decided to stay in another universe
K9-2 Decided to stay in another universe, would be destroyed if he left
Adric Died crashing into prehistoric earth
Tegan Returned to her own time
Nissa Stayed in a futuristic leppers colony to help
Turlough Returned to his own people
Peri Maybe killed by brain transfer/ maybe married a warrior king
Mel Left to run a trading post with a con man
Ace Unknown
Grace Left in own time

New series
Adam Left in his own time with a hole in his head
Jack Left for dead in the future
Micky Left in another universe (later returned and got married)
Rose Left in another universe with a copy of the doctor
Martha Left in own time
Donna Mindwiped and left in own time
Amy Left in own time
Rory Left in own time

[DarkSilver]

Are you serious? Ten went on about it quite a lot too.

I know, and I even said as much. I don't think I was the only one sick of Ten's moodiness by the end of his run. Eleven was a breath of fresh air by that point. Only now ...

...but the difference between then and now, was that with Ten, the Doctor was just regenerating into a new body, and he new it. He wasn't going to die as in dead as a doornail, he breaths no more sorta sense. With this one, the Doctor as far as he knows is DEAD, no Regeneration, he gets burned by his best friends after watching him die at the hands of the Evil Conspiracy.

And while yes, we know he will get out of it somehow, the Doctor apparently is worried enough about it that it's affecting him.

So yeah....little different.

[mr friendly guy]

Peri Maybe killed by brain transfer/ maybe married a warrior king

In the Ultimate foe novelisation it clearly states that Peri was a Queen, ie the killed while a companion was a fake image the Valeyard hooked into the Matrix.

Jack Left for dead in the future

Didn't the Doctor leave him in the 21st century. Any subsequent adventures were certainly Jack's own doing.

[Crazedwraith]

Jack Left for dead in the future

Didn't the Doctor leave him in the 21st century. Any subsequent adventures were certainly Jack's own doing.

The tenth doctor left him behind on Bad Wolf Station after 'The Parting of the Ways'. Saying he was 'busy rebuilding Earth in the future'

When they met up again at the end of seasons 3 and 4, he did just leave him back in Cardiff ready for the next season of Torchwood.

[Broomstick]

Off the top of my head, only two companions have died on the Doctor's watch;
Sarah Kingdom (who barely counts anyhow) and Adric (most people cheered at that one).

Presumably Leela and Romana also died when Gallifrey was destroyed, and those two deaths the Doctor would have been responsible for.

ETA: Forgot Romana was in a different universe, so just Leela then.