Mid East Reactions too a Post Iraq Kurdistan

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2003-03-04 01:32am

This has been coming up alot and I thought I should make thread too see the views of others o a free Kurdistan carved up from Northern Iraq. I myself in the past few weeks was looking into the Kurdish Wars aganist Turkey. So do you thnk it could stabilize the region for the Kurds a great deal if the UN approved of a new Kurdistan? As in would the Kurds stop attacking other countries and would it's new border opponents go so far too nfore trde embargoes?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-04 01:33am

Give the kurds lots of US Money to settle the fuck down. And kill anyone
who opposes us creating Kurdistan.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-03-04 01:37am

The Kurds wouldn't settle for just Northern Iraq. This what Kurds think they deserve:

Notice that Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria would NEVER even countenance a smidgen of what they want.

Never mind that there has never been a country called Kurdistan

They claim about 230,000 square miles of other countries territory, pretty much.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-04 01:38am

Kurdistan should have been created in the 19th century. Instead, the Kurds were parcelled out to various neighbouring countries which now (naturally) see them as a separatist threat to national sovereignty and integrity.

The formation of an independent Kurdish state in northern Iraq is a deeply disturbing concept to the Turks, who have been fighting Kurdish separatist forces for some time. Basically, no one in that whole region except for the Kurds themselves wants the Kurds to have their own land, and if they move against Hussein, this does NOT mean they like the Kurds or want to help them. Much like the situation with the Palestinians.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-04 01:40am

Vympel wrote:The Kurds wouldn't settle for just Northern Iraq. This what Kurds think they deserve

They've had Northern Iraq as Kurdistan for the last 12 years as a de-facto
state, protected against Saddam, by the US No fly zone over northern Iraq...

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2003-03-04 01:45am

Vympel wrote:The Kurds wouldn't settle for just Northern Iraq. This what Kurds think they deserve:

Notice that Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria would NEVER even countenance a smidgen of what they want.

Never mind that there has never been a country called Kurdistan

They claim about 230,000 square miles of other countries territory, pretty much.

I'm very aware of that. But the question is how far they would go for it or just settle for most of Northern Iraq.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-03-04 01:49am

Vympel wrote:The Kurds wouldn't settle for just Northern Iraq. This what Kurds think they deserve:

<snip pic>

Notice that Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria would NEVER even countenance a smidgen of what they want.

Never mind that there has never been a country called Kurdistan

They claim about 230,000 square miles of other countries territory, pretty much.

They want like what, 1/3 of Turkey! Good luck, considering that Greece and Turkey have been arguing (and I shit you not) for half a century over islands that are about the same size of a footy pitch and barren. Good luck. The best they can hope for is to still be tied to each of the countries they are in now, but with some kind of official representation in the government. And that is it.

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2003-03-04 01:53am

Crown wrote:
Vympel wrote:The Kurds wouldn't settle for just Northern Iraq. This what Kurds think they deserve:

<snip pic>

Notice that Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria would NEVER even countenance a smidgen of what they want.

Never mind that there has never been a country called Kurdistan

They claim about 230,000 square miles of other countries territory, pretty much.
They want like what, 1/3 of Turkey! Good luck, considering that Greece and Turkey have been arguing (and I shit you not) for half a century over islands that are about the same size of a footy pitch and barren. Good luck. The best they can hope for is to still be tied to each of the countries they are in now, but with some kind of official representation in the government. And that is it.

I'll doubt they'll receive poloitical recongition where they/re strongest in Turkey. Due too their Separatist attacks. And in the other region their voices shall not be heard.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-03-04 02:01am

Everybody thank Woodrow Wilson for this bullshit idea that every pissant ethnic group with a flag and a gripe deserves its own country or some other kind of special treatment. Minorities deserve not to be pissed upon by the majority, by virtue of being the same species as everyone else. Everything beyond that is horseshit.

Of course, that idea would work a lot better if the majorities would do their part and NOT brutally oppress the minorities, but every now and then I have a flash of idealism.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-03-04 02:19am

*singing*

That's what we call...
Balkaniiiiiiiisaaaatioooon.

Rubberanvil · Post by **Rubberanvil** » 2003-03-04 02:39am

Captain Lennox wrote:[
I'm very aware of that. But the question is how far they would go for it or just settle for most of Northern Iraq.

The Kurdish moderates, intelluals, businesses and all of the others who don't give a fuck which country they live in; would be perfectly(sp) happy with just representation in their governments. The separatists won't stop until their finished creating Greater Kurdistan.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-04 03:30am

Darth Wong wrote:Kurdistan should have been created in the 19th century. Instead, the Kurds were parcelled out to various neighbouring countries which now (naturally) see them as a separatist threat to national sovereignty and integrity.

The formation of an independent Kurdish state in northern Iraq is a deeply disturbing concept to the Turks, who have been fighting Kurdish separatist forces for some time. Basically, no one in that whole region except for the Kurds themselves wants the Kurds to have their own land, and if they move against Hussein, this does NOT mean they like the Kurds or want to help them. Much like the situation with the Palestinians.

The Kurds are a semi-nomadic people and part of the territory they claim is, well... They don't inhabit it all of the time. This makes their claims even more annoying to the local powers, naturally. Furthermore, of course, the ethnic majorities of the countries in question naturally have minority groups within these regions (or, for some sections, majorities depending on the season), and want to protect them. Or in some cases, majority pockets.

Another fact is that many Kurds do not live in Kurdistan. For example, the largest Kurdish-population city in the world is.... Istanbul. Naturally, with most Kurds living in Turkey, they've gone to the industrial centers to look for work like the rural dwellers in developing nations everywhere, and no longer even live in Kurdistan anymore.

Kurdistan is quite potentially an even bigger mess than Palestine by far, and that's why the failure to bring the Turks onboard is giving me reservations about the military effort in Iraq.

EDIT: I should note for the record that there was no chance for an independent Kurdistan until post-WWI, or the 20th century. Even then, it would have been impossible. Mustafa Kemal's military proved quite capable of expelling western armies from the Anatolian highlands, and though Kurdistan was ignored, a stated western goal of carving Armenia out of Turkey never came to fruition purely due to Turkish military success.

Indeed, Turkey had a postwar claim to northern Iraq, no less, that was traded for a third of the oil from the Mosul fields as part of Mustafa Kemal's policy of stabilizing the Turkish borders; I'm not certain about the status of that agreement in the here-and-now. Quite simply, Kurdistan has always been a dead idea and that region wants it to stay dead very badly.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-04 03:45am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Quite simply, Kurdistan has always been a dead idea and that region wants it to stay dead very badly.

Kurdistan is existing RIGHT NOW, in northern Iraq, enforced by US
no-fly-zones.

Just WTF is your damn obsession with the damn Turks, DoZ?

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-04 03:47am

MKSheppard wrote:
Kurdistan is existing RIGHT NOW, in northern Iraq, enforced by US
no-fly-zones.

They haven't tried to claim independence, and already military forces from the surrounding powers are moving in to protect their interests in case they do, and simply from the trouble caused by their existance. If they do proclaim independence, the result will surely be bad.

Just WTF is your damn obsession with the damn Turks, DoZ?

They're the only Muslim nation to successfully transition to a western secular democracy.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-03-04 04:38am

I would hardly say that Kurdistan is 'enforced' by the no-fly zones. I just learned a few weeks ago in a research romp on the no fly zones that Turkey sometimes shuts these no-fly zones down to go perform 'special missions' in Northern Iraq against the Kurds.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-04 04:40am

Vympel wrote:I would hardly say that Kurdistan is 'enforced' by the no-fly zones. I just learned a few weeks ago in a research romp on the no fly zones that Turkey sometimes shuts these no-fly zones down to go perform 'special missions' in Northern Iraq against the Kurds.

Well, that's entirely reasonable. We established the no-fly zones from bases on their national soil, so their security concerns come first.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-03-04 04:41am

MKSheppard wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Quite simply, Kurdistan has always been a dead idea and that region wants it to stay dead very badly.
Kurdistan is existing RIGHT NOW, in northern Iraq, enforced by US
no-fly-zones.

Just WTF is your damn obsession with the damn Turks, DoZ?

That "Kurdistan" is nothing more than a fantasy.
Their government has no money. They are not really organized.
And the fact that there is a Turkmenish (speak Turkish) minority inside Northern Iraq the Turks feel responsible for...

Turkey sees a fully developed Kurdish state as a threat to their own country and will do anything to prevent that from happening.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-04 05:41am

Dahak wrote: That "Kurdistan" is nothing more than a fantasy.
Their government has no money. They are not really organized.
And the fact that there is a Turkmenish (speak Turkish) minority inside Northern Iraq the Turks feel responsible for...

Turkey sees a fully developed Kurdish state as a threat to their own country and will do anything to prevent that from happening.

P.S. In English it would be "Turkoman" (Turkomen plural) minority. *g*

David · Post by **David** » 2003-03-04 10:51am

Well as Shep said a Kurdish nation already exists. This could be extremely beneficial to the US. The reason the Kurds and the area they occupy was included by the British during the 20's and 30's was because of the northern oil deposits, Maybe the Kurds will give us a discount for making a nation for them ( or at least keeping that nation from being destroyed by the Iraqis.)

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-03-04 11:16am

Well, I see Kurdistan as a lose-lose situation. As it happens, all the Kurds who are serious about building infrastructure et cetera have left because there is no work for them in those areas and I don't see many of them moving out their homes where they have carved out successful lives. In the end, a free Kurdistan is just another shithole third world mouth to feed.

On the other hand, giving the land to Turkey is just asking for trouble. While Turkey is the only nation in the region that if they end up with the area that they might actually do something with it, the Kurds who live there don't want to be ruled by Turkey and may well get more aggressively revolutionary all the time until the Turks slap them silly, and that will just make the matter worse. In a land where the minority wants revolution from a state, but the state tells them to shove off and has the force to make it happen, that area becomes a breeding ground for radicals and terrorists. Under Turkey, that place is going to fill to the scuppers with terrorists.

The idea situation is for the Kurds to shut up and learn to live with the Turks, but realistically that won't happen. It's just a stupid situation.