The Legacy of Steve Jobs

[Count Chocula]

He was a piece of shit who contributed to the harmful consumerism of humanity to line his own pockets with other people's work.

Taken too soon? Fucking please, if this rich asshole hadn't exploited his way up the capitalist ladder, he'd have been dead years ago, like any common person who got dealt that hand.

If by "exploited" you mean "take advantage of other people's lack of vision," I'd agree with you but I would not attach a negative connotation to it. Shit, the only thing about my iPhone I like is the screen, but lots of people love their iPhones. Variety is the spice of life. Jobs & Wozniak, and Gates & Allen, cribbed other people's work to make a completely new concept workable where the originators failed epically. I'll take Xerox's Palo Alto Research Center GUI and mouse concept for $200, Alex! Does that make them pieces of shit? I'd say no.

[Xisiqomelir]

Nevermind that his "innovations" are almost entirely other people's work.

Can we go with just this one please? I'll give you that PARC invented the GUI. Let's hear the rest of it.

[Dominus Atheos]

Nevermind that his "innovations" are almost entirely other people's work.

Can we go with just this one please? I'll give you that PARC invented the GUI. Let's hear the rest of it.

The DS, Windows Mobile, and PSP had touchscreens, apps, and wireless internet browsing, respectively, years before the iPhone came out, yet people still called all of those features "innovative", while the concept of a touchscreen tablet that you can type and read books on has been around since the 70's.

Admittedly, the design of most of Apple's implementation of these ideas has been superior to the originals, that's most of what Apple's good at: ripping off of other peoples ideas, putting them in a pretty, easy to use package, and convincing people to buy them for 3 times what it costs the make the device. Steve Jobs was a genius when it came to those things.

[Xisiqomelir]

Edit: sorry, this was to Xisiqomelir.
...
That's a successful business strategy, but is it really new? Can we honestly thank Steve Jobs for moving humanity into a brighter future when we actually sit down and look at what he did?

Yes, I really think we can.

Without the Apple II, there wouldn't have been a home computing revolution. There certainly wouldn't have been IBM PC-compatibles.

I don't think there's anyone else in all of computing who's done as much to increase the usability of devices. And it may not matter for people like you and I who can recompile our own kernels, but it matters for autistic children and those with sensory disabilities.

No one else would have assaulted the record industry and forced track-by-track sales. That's a great victory for artists and consumers both.

It was unquestionably the Macintosh which revolutionized home desktop publishing.

There is more if I need to post it, but it's absurd to say that this man's contributions to society, of all people, amount to nothing.

But, Gates himself isn't a selfish asshole like Steve Jobs. He uses his money to help less fortunate people and to legitimately move humanity forward.

The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has given metric assloads of money to technical development and infrastructure projects in the third world and elsewhere. His will specifies that his personal wealth will continue helping people live better lives in the long run, even after he's gone.

I think by now everyone on the board knows my opinion of Gates. I'd like to point out that robber barons back to Carnegie and beyond have had tendencies to seek whitewashing of their legacies through ostentatious philanthropy in the end days. I don't dispute the good that can be effected, but I don't think that good acts at the end make a person good.

Getting back to Jobs, he opened his foundation long before Gates did, and his giving to projects like Bono's AIDS word is on record (from Bono, not Jobs). I think more will come to light as time goes on.

[Starglider]

Without the Apple II, there wouldn't have been a home computing revolution. There certainly wouldn't have been IBM PC-compatibles.

This is total bullshit. The market was absolutely crowded with personal computers. No Apple II would just mean Commodore or Tandy or someone else gets those users and historical role. The revolution would have been delayed by six months at most.

I don't think there's anyone else in all of computing who's done as much to increase the usability of devices. And it may not matter for people like you and I who can recompile our own kernels, but it matters for autistic children and those with sensory disabilities.

All of the actual work was done by engineers and UX people; Steve Jobs did nothing but swear at them and insist that it absolutely had to be this shade of grey. Those experts would have wanted to do those things anyway, it's just a question of whether other leaders and other companies would have devoted as much resource to it. Steve Jobs made usability a priority because it was a viable competitive strategy, so I think that yes other companies would have done so. Commodore is a good example again; the Amiga came out in 1985 and was just as innovative in usability and multimedia terms as the Macintosh. It could easily have satisfied the Mac's historical user base and use cases if Apple hadn't been around; and it would have done so without the proprietary lock-in and personality cult Apple had.

[Eleas]

Commodore is a good example again; the Amiga came out in 1985 and was just as innovative in usability and multimedia terms as the Macintosh. It could easily have satisfied the Mac's historical user base and use cases if Apple hadn't been around; and it would have done so without the proprietary lock-in and personality cult Apple had.

I love the image, being an inveterate Amiga lover. What killed Commodore, however, was poor business practices. Between 83 and 91 they had one hell of an edge in terms of product, but Commodore squandered all that on chronic mismanagement.

It was by the sweat of hobbyists that Commodore was kept afloat for as long as it was.

[Starglider]

I love the image, being an inveterate Amiga lover. What killed Commodore, however, was poor business practices. Between 83 and 91 they had one hell of an edge in terms of product, but Commodore squandered all that on chronic mismanagement.

As did Atari. Remember though that if you delete Apple from history, the competitive landscape would be different and all their talented engineers, programmers and managers would join or start other companies. No Apple II means the Commodore PET, VIC-20, C64 and C128 sell even more, no Mac makes it easier for the ST, Amiga and Acorn Archimedies. Xisiqomelir believes that IBM would not have made the PC without the Apple II specifically, which is ridiculous, but even if it was true that would just give other machines such as the Amiga a much better shot at becoming the desktop computing standard. If that had happened 'usable computing' would have been standard from the late 80s, instead of the reality of MS-DOS and Win3.1 horribleness persisting into the late 90s. So the implication of Xisiqomelir's argument is actually that the presence of Apple in the marketplace retarded the development of GUIs and intuitive interfaces...

[Phantasee]

Steve Jobs showed the wider consumer world the wonders of smart phones, slick laptops, and tablet computing. The fact anyone else did it first or better doesn't matter: that cult of personality is exactly why the public is mourning his loss. Most people don't know or care that he didn't invent the iPod, they just know he was the one who made them aware of portable music devices.

Really, when any music player is referred to as an iPod, what do you expect? He didn't just replace MP3 player in everyday vocabulary, he put himself in the public's consciousness as Moses bringing down these electronic tablets from his conversations with God or something like.

[Lagmonster]

Aside from the aversion to being a dick about death, I don't see anything wrong with arguing - even strongly - about the man's legacy. Jobs is dead - that's basically a full-stop sentence, and unless someone writes an obit or knew the man personally the thread should basically end there before we have to endure a string of otherwise empty memorial posts.

Taken objectively, I think - and I've flipped on this issue before, so who the fuck should listen to me - that now that he's dead, it becomes perfectly sensible to debate his legacy. That means digging up shit as well as measuring up his accomplishments. And it means - lest we forget how we had two threads for Pope John Paul - that some people want to point out the shit and some people want to measure the accomplishments and some people just want to mourn without thinking about anything at all. People should argue with DS13 if they are so inclined, not stick him in a hole. Most people are delicate about death, I get that, but I don't think we want it to be that how we are remembered comes down to who plays the biggest appeal to emotion card.

[charlemagne]

Really, when any music player is referred to as an iPod

No one I know referres to any music player as an iPod. Seriously, no one.

[Temujin]

Really, when any music player is referred to as an iPod

No one I know referres to any music player as an iPod. Seriously, no one.

It might be more of a US / North American thing. I've heard some people use it as a generic descriptor, but they usually seem to be people who are less tech savvy and only understand the technologies' function via the popular brand name.

And for anyone wanting a see just how many different PCs were on the market in the late 70s / early 80s, check out this site.

[Terralthra]

Really, when any music player is referred to as an iPod

No one I know referres to any music player as an iPod. Seriously, no one.

It might be more of a US / North American thing. I've heard some people use it as a generic descriptor, but they usually seem to be people who are less tech savvy and only understand the technologies' function via the popular brand name.

I'm in the heart of Apple country, and no one here has that usage pattern.

[aerius]

My problem with Apple is how they outsourced all their production to China where they're free to use slave labour like conditions in their factories and dump toxic shit into the environment since they don't have any regulations over there. Making the touchscreens for example uses all types of fluorine based chemicals and carcinogenic compounds, you can bet that shit is getting dumped into the nearest river. Same thing with all the lead from the tin/lead solders used to solder everything together, they ain't disposing of that stuff properly.

On top of that, all those nice well paying manufacturing jobs are being created in China instead of America. If RIM can build crackberries & phones in Canada and still make a profit then Apple can do so as well. But they don't because they're profit chasing fucks.

[Samuel]

On top of that, all those nice well paying manufacturing jobs are being created in China instead of America. If RIM can build crackberries & phones in Canada and still make a profit then Apple can do so as well. But they don't because they're profit chasing fucks.

I'm not seeing how this is a bad thing. Do the Chinese not have a right to well paying manufacturing jobs?

[SilverWingedSeraph]

I'm not seeing how this is a bad thing. Do the Chinese not have a right to well paying manufacturing jobs?

The problem is that they're not well paid. It's borderline slave labor with atrocious conditions. If Apple got their manufacturing done in China but the workers got paid a decent wage and the work conditions weren't so bad, then I doubt people would have as much of a problem with it.

[Count Chocula]

I think the implication here, Samuel, is that if you buy an iPhone you're hurting North America workers and helping, in your own small way, to fuck over China's ecosystem. It cuts $50 or so I guess off the price of each unit to have no MSDS, toxic handling and disposal, or safety standards.

In other words, if you buy a made in China Apple product you're helping the Chinese to shit where they eat. Of course there the analogy fails, rice paddies, fertilizers, farmers copping squats, fill in the blanks. Or just look at the Central Valley.

[aerius]

I'm not seeing how this is a bad thing. Do the Chinese not have a right to well paying manufacturing jobs?

Back before workers committing suicide en masse at the FoxConn plants where Apple products are made, they were paid a bit over $100 a month. When I was a student working a summer job at RIM 10 years ago, I made more than that in a single 8 hour shift. They now get paid about $300 a month which is still 10 times less than my student job salary from 10 years ago. I would not call $300/month a well paying job especially considering the conditions they're forced to work under. They work a hell of a lot longer and more shifts than we do with OSHA violations galore.

[mr friendly guy]

If Apple got their manufacturing done in China but the workers got paid a decent wage and the work conditions weren't so bad, then I doubt people would have as much of a problem with it.

Actually from reading those posters such as Aerius, Ma Deuce etc from previous post, their beef is less so that China gets "slave wages", but that its taking jobs from AMERICA (interesting, considering those two are Canadians). In any event, the conditions are crap (ie number of hours work etc) are not what I am disputing, although I will need to know the cost of living in China, average wages elsewhere to know how Foxcann (Taiwanese company which Apple outsources to) pays its workers vs the average in China, before I can make an informed judgment.

[Broomstick]

Without the Apple II, there wouldn't have been a home computing revolution. There certainly wouldn't have been IBM PC-compatibles.

This is total bullshit. The market was absolutely crowded with personal computers. No Apple II would just mean Commodore or Tandy or someone else gets those users and historical role. The revolution would have been delayed by six months at most.

^ This.

I was using Tandy TRS-80's and a Commodore PET long before I ever touched an Apple II - all three of which came out in 1977 as best I recall so it's ludicrous to claim the other two wouldn't exist without the Apple II. (Let's just ignore Heathkit and Altair kits, plus a few of their competitors) Apples I used only briefly, and never touched a Macintosh. By 1980 I and a lot of other people had latched onto the IBM PC's with the Microsoft DOS (not that there weren't some issues there as well - my household actually went from the Tandy computers to the PC clones, we've never owned Apples, it's hardly a requirement). It's ludicrous to assert that with no Apple II there would be no home computing.

Again, this is also ignores the Atari and Coleco forays into the home computing world. And probably others I don't remember. There were a shitload of companies in the late 1970's and Apple was just one small start-up among many. If Apple hadn't existed there would have been hardly a ripple. Well, maybe Microsoft, Gates, and Allen would have made even more money that they did in this version of reality.

[Dominus Atheos]

The Onion sums up the internet reaction like only they can:

BOSTON—Calling the death a “tragic loss” and saying he was “truly devastated by the news,” self-described Apple product loyalist Eric Cavanaugh is treating the passing of the company’s former CEO Steve Jobs as if his fucking dad just died, sources confirmed Thursday. “I can’t believe it,” said Cavanaugh, 28, wearing a saddened expression that would make you think he was mourning the loss of his 61-year-old father, Jack, and not a complete goddamn stranger. “He meant a lot to me, and I’ll miss him. I think I might send an e-mail to rememberingsteve@apple.com [instead of contacting the man he hasn’t talked to in a month who helped him with his homework, paid his college tuition, and has supported him throughout his entire life, loving him unconditionally despite his myriad fuckups].” At press time, Cavanaugh reportedly needs to get his fucking priorities straight.

[Stark]

People identify with complete strangers all the time. Next we'll hear that people caring about the deaths of actors or sportsmen is also stupid, that'll be a real newsflash!

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Turns out para-social relationships are just a part of modern social psychology.

[His Divine Shadow]

Ironic, the same day jobs died was the same day I resurrected my dead 1st gen ipod nano. With a battery I bought from HK for $3.50 incl. freight. I think Apple wanted over 60 bucks for a replacement.

[Dr Roberts]

In fairness I once dropped my Ipod in some Milk and got a new one free.

[Lagmonster]

I'm not seeing how this is a bad thing. Do the Chinese not have a right to well paying manufacturing jobs?

The problem is that they're not well paid. It's borderline slave labor with atrocious conditions. If Apple got their manufacturing done in China but the workers got paid a decent wage and the work conditions weren't so bad, then I doubt people would have as much of a problem with it.

Far be it for me to come out in favour of sweatshops, but comfy westerners sometimes - just sometimes - don't get that there are places on earth where working in a dirty warehouse for pennies a day is a step up from subsistence agriculture. I can't prove that these workers had no better choice, but calling it "borderline slave labour" implies some shit in itself that you might want to look into.