Curbstomps you would love to see happen

[Shroom Man 777]

All those things you mentioned had more than curbstomps. If there was no threat at all to the hero protagonists, the explosions and space battles and rayguns would be pretty hollow. The grit, the tension, the drama - even if it's just Shia LaBeowulf going "NO NO NO NO" or Will Smith going "aw hell no this shit just got real" or "it ain't over till the fat lady sings" - makes and enriches the explosions and space battles and rayguns, enawesoming them.

Heck, LaBeowulf going "nonononono" and Will Smith going "WELCOME TO EARTH!" is artistic merit and significant and thematic - in terms of entertainment value. Compared to a lame dry meaningless curbstomp where even in entertainment, it would be found lacking in artistic quality or significant or thematic.

(Heck, Simon Peg comedies could be said to have artistic quality/significance/thematicness. Because they are entertaining and not-boring.)

[Oni Koneko Damien]

The problem with all the listed examples are that the stories aren't good stories because they are curbstomps. They're good stories because of the characters, motivations and themes involved with the curbstomp. Independence Day, War of the Worlds and Battlefield Earth? You can relate to the struggles of the curbstomped protagonists because it's humanity trying to survive in the face of massively overwhelming odds.

Frankenstein, Star Maker (I'm going by your description, as I've never heard of it), The Day the Earth Stood Still and 1984, if you really want to try and stretch the definition of 'curbstomp' to encompass them, are still an entirely separate category. In their case the 'curbstomp' is one of philosophical and moral conflict rather than military might, which I think is the main aim of this thread.

To summarize: Curbstomps in and of themselves do not make good stories. Thus if we really wanted to convince people 'X cockslapping Y' would be entertaining, we'd have to give reasons why other than, 'X cockslaps Y, lol'.

The striking thing about "BALLS!" in its original context was that you didn't know it was going to be a curbstomp when you read that, or at least you didn't unless you had a lot of cynical background knowledge about the author.

The problem is that I couldn't get more than a paragraph or three beyond "BALLS!" without knowing what was going to happen because the 'story' was too horrendously boring and poorly done to bother with otherwise. In its original context, you didn't know that "Call me Ishmael" would technically lead to a curbstomp in Moby Dick, but in general I'm not dealing with an audience who doesn't understand the context behind "BALLS!"

Edit:

Who the fuck cares about artistic quality or anything significant or thematic? If we only care about that in sci fi we start to become fucking elitists. Transformers or ID4 may not have much in the thematic way (except perhaps AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!) but they can still be entertaining and enjoyable. Or the Honorverse. Or Ringo novels. Or NuTrek...

More people care than you'd think. More people care than they even realize. The average movie-goer might not understand the processes, theories and knowledge behind creating stories, but they still reap the benefits when they watch a 'mindless' movie that still gets them to give enough of a shit about the characters and what's happening to them to enjoy it. A person doesn't have to know what's going on inside an engine or what went into an automobile's design and production to drive a car to the store, but that doesn't change the fact that that knowledge is required to produce a quality vehicle in the first place.

[Shroom Man 777]

1984 is very much a curbstomp. I mean, boots stamping on the human face, forever! That's the literal definition!

[Simon_Jester]

Yes, but what makes it good isn't that it involves boots stomping on faces forever, which I think is Oni's point.

In and of itself, "X easily defeats Y, so that Y looks utterly inferior and weak" isn't much of a story. Quality (even entertainment value) comes from adding in other elements- characters on the side of X or Y that you want to care about, technologies or ideas that look good or appeal to your mind, a message that you walk away with that makes you think, things like that.

If you have those other things, the story will be good even if there is no effortless stomping on Y- even if Y puts up a good fight. If all you have is "X stomps on Y," then you have nothing.

[Shroom Man 777]

Yes, I know man. I was just saying that 1984 literally had curbstomps in the iconic boot-face-stomping being a literal description of what a curbstomp actually is.

[Stark]

I'm not afraid of being an elitist.

By that, I mean 'not agreeing with Connor'. You don't have to read every piece of scifi filth published to be a 'real' 'fun' 'happy' 'fan'.

Nice job pairing ID4 with Honorverse, though - since the Honorverse makes ID4 look like fucking Das Boot, you conflate liking something lighthearted with liking something fucking horrible. Books Connor Likes are now implicitly of a similar quality or entertainment value to movies that made asspiles of money... because...



Otherwise, you're an ELITIST!

Elitist used as negative term on SDN = giant lols. Maybe Connor's brain is just too small to handle ANALYSIS and entertainment at the same time?

Who the fuck cares about artistic quality or anything significant or thematic? If we only care about that in sci fi we start to become fucking elitists

Don't let your sense of inferiority make such ridiculous strawmen. You're just embarrassing yourself.

I dont expect my Sci fi to be intelligent.

We know.

[StarSword]

How about a real-life curbstomp?

The Battle of Trenton during the American Revolutionary War: The Continental Army launches a surprise attack against the Hessians, who are totally ineffective because they placed no sentries, ignored intel from a Tory farmer who saw the Americans coming, and (arguably most important) were hung over from Christmas Eve drinking. The results: over a thousand Hessian mercenaries dead, American morale and supplies restored, and recruitment for the Continental Army skyrockets.

[Stark]

There are heaps of historical battles like that- but because they involve people and not cardboard cutouts, you can discuss motives and plans, errors and judgements, and even operational decisions. Context is ever-present in reality, but has to be built in fiction.

I could bang on about how Char's Counterattack makes sense in context with Char's frustration with the political process and radicalization of his supporters and howthis highlights how people can come to value ideals over human life and commit terrible crimes. Unfortunately, this would be elitist.

[VF5SS]

Yeah I've heard that line of reasoning with Char before. Some people think his behavior in CCA is at odds with his more environmentalist attitude during Zeta but it's one of those things that can go either way. Char's supposed role in Double Zeta might have provided more insight into what changed him but we'll never know.

Maybe that new Zeta Gundam re-do manga will fix eveeeeeeeerything.

[Stark]

You fucking elitist! How dare you look beyond the explosions and appreciate the work of artists and creators! Next you'll be on a slippery slope to 'crap characters = crap work'! Why can't you enjoy <list of stuff I like that actually sucks>?

It arguably depreciates the input of artists to say that only the most superficial appreciation of a work is required. Oh well?

[StarSword]

Another possible curbstomp: the Starfleet troops at AR-558 versus a modern-day United States Marine Corps combat unit of comparable size, both with standard equipment. I'm betting on the jarheads.

There are heaps of historical battles like that- but because they involve people and not cardboard cutouts, you can discuss motives and plans, errors and judgements, and even operational decisions. Context is ever-present in reality, but has to be built in fiction.

Uh, yeah, that's kinda the oblique and subtle point I was making: that curbstomps can be interesting, but not because they're curbstomps. (Oni's point, in other words.)

Also, who's Char?

[VF5SS]

Also, who's Char?

He's three times better than you.

[Ford Prefect]

Who the fuck cares about artistic quality or anything significant or thematic?

Once upon a time, a young man said to me 'I don't think drama and conflict is an important part of storytelling'. I had trouble conveying to him why these things were vital elements of telling a good story, because it just seemed such a basic, fundamental aspect of the act of storytelling that I couldn't understand why it would need to be justified. More recently, a different young man told me that 'all fiction is wish fulfilment', a statement which left me equally baffled. Your statement is similar. I mean, think about about what you just said: why should we care about the artistic merit of art? Why should we care about the meaning of a work which is intended to convey some kind of meaning?

[Panzersharkcat]

Another possible curbstomp: the Starfleet troops at AR-558 versus a modern-day United States Marine Corps combat unit of comparable size, both with standard equipment. I'm betting on the jarheads.

Them vs a comparable unit of the Enclave. Or the Brotherhood of Steel. Or the NCR. Or the Legion. Or the Master's army. The Legion one is a bit iffy, though.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

I really like the curbstomp in American History X. It was filmed in such a way that it seemed both primal and somehow dissociative.

[Alerik the Fortunate]

The thing with real curbstomps involving huge powers like the Xeelee is there's no motivation. The Xeelee don't bother seriously fending off younger races, even as aggressive as the humans in Baxter's stories were, until they get to be enough of a nuisance to distract from their main purpose. Even then, they were merciful to the point of indulgence towards humans, not wiping them out when it would have been trivial, and even offering them an escape route at the end. What would the Xeelee do with smurfs? They would be utterly meaningless.

On the other hand, if humans or some other seemingly Great Power get snuffed out as a minor side effect of a really developed society pursuing their own pastimes, it can serve a bit of perspective and be used to comic effect. For example, the Vogons' demolition of Earth in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. A slightly more serious (if still funny) take on it is Charles Stross' Singularity Sky, in which a bunch of neo-Luddite imperialists try to "protect" local human colonies from the supposedly baleful social consequences of transhumanist technologies. Of course in the process they decide to attack an entity so advanced that they have no idea what it is or wants, using weapons they had to purchase from more advanced societies that look down on them, while pissing off their far more powerful interstellar neighbors, while using tactics that would annoy the Godlike AI that they knew was watching the whole affair and expressly warned them that it will exterminate them if they attempt to use forbidden techniques. How could they have known that it would turn out so badly for them? It works because the arrogance of the ignorant antagonists is amusing considering the true power disparities involved, and also because the main characters, who are from a more civilized society, are stuck in the whole affair and have to find a way to extricate themselves before things get too messy.

[Connor MacLeod]

I guess I did speak foolishly. *shrugs* Comment withdrawn.

[Shroom Man 777]

Non sci-fi curbstomp. Well, I don't know if it would be a curbstomp.

The Imperial Japanese Army versus Afghanistan.

Think about it. A bunch of psychotic murderous assholes who have no respect for the rules of war. They'd capture some Talibanis and make them death march across the desert. Or rain bubonic plague lice into the caves. Talibanis try to behead someone? The Japanistanis follow that up by fucking decaffeinating Mohammad Omar or whoever with a frickin' samurai sword.

Japan!

[Coalition]

Dr Manhattan vs the Joker.

One sane but barely cares about the world, the other insane and doesn't care about the world.

[Simon_Jester]

On the other hand, if humans or some other seemingly Great Power get snuffed out as a minor side effect of a really developed society pursuing their own pastimes, it can serve a bit of perspective and be used to comic effect. For example, the Vogons' demolition of Earth in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. A slightly more serious (if still funny) take on it is Charles Stross' Singularity Sky, in which a bunch of neo-Luddite imperialists try to "protect" local human colonies from the supposedly baleful social consequences of transhumanist technologies. Of course in the process they decide to attack an entity so advanced that they have no idea what it is or wants, using weapons they had to purchase from more advanced societies that look down on them, while pissing off their far more powerful interstellar neighbors, while using tactics that would annoy the Godlike AI that they knew was watching the whole affair and expressly warned them that it will exterminate them if they attempt to use forbidden techniques. How could they have known that it would turn out so badly for them? It works because the arrogance of the ignorant antagonists is amusing considering the true power disparities involved, and also because the main characters, who are from a more civilized society, are stuck in the whole affair and have to find a way to extricate themselves before things get too messy.

Well, yes, as long as there's a point.

For Singularity Sky and Hitchhiker's Guide, much of the point was to establish backdrop.

The neo-Luddites in Singularity Sky are a pastiche of Czarist Russia during the Russo-Japanese War and our own ideas of space-opera naval warfare. My impression is that Stross was intentionally playing with our 20th-century expectations about what would work and what wouldn't. You've got transhumanist-Marxist revolutionaries on one of the planets they occupy who are frantically trying to adapt when all that wacky technology starts appearing in their midst (introduced by an outside source). But... because they live in a neo-Luddite society even while they dissent from it, they're still used to stuff like typewriters, handbills, and bomb-throwing, like 1900-era revolutionaries. So they don't adapt very gracefully, because their entire model of how to run a revolution is falling apart just as fast as the Old Guard they sought to overthrow is. The way that old social models (including the "radical" models preferred by people who already expect a revolution) collapse and decay so quickly when confronted by all this new technology is the entire point of the story, so there's a theme and not just people getting eaten by nanomonsters or whatever.

For Hitchhiker's Guide, Earth isn't really the setting of the story, and the only reason Arthur Dent is present is to act as an "only sane man" perspective. Having someone blow up the Earth to create a hyperspace bypass establishes a sense of scale (galactic society is so big it casually blows up planets). It also sets the tone of the series (humor, with an extra helping of black comedy).

But again, here the total, humiliating defeats serve some literary purpose; the thing that is defeated doesn't exist solely as a way to demonstrate weapon power.

[speaker-to-trolls]

Frankenstein, Star Maker (I'm going by your description, as I've never heard of it), The Day the Earth Stood Still and 1984, if you really want to try and stretch the definition of 'curbstomp' to encompass them, are still an entirely separate category. In their case the 'curbstomp' is one of philosophical and moral conflict rather than military might, which I think is the main aim of this thread.

I've been working on reinterpreting various works of literature from a curbstomping perspective, for instance, in Oedipus Rex, Oedipus is curbstomped by the ineffable forces of fate...

No, best not.

(Star Maker is basically a book about someone telepathically viewing the entire history of the universe and in the process getting a sense of perspective while he watches all these alien civilisations rise and fall. It isn't a normal novel but I think it's brilliant and beautifully written, I'd highly recommend it.)

I just brought up these stories to make the point everyone else has made several times in this thread, having someone be utterly crushed by their enemies (or by circumstances or their own personal flaws etc) is not necessarily a bad story, it's just there has to be drama around it. I don't think I need to add more examples.

I would say that aside from being boring, most of the stories I've read where the main purpose or focus of the story is on the effortless crushing of one force by another is that there is a horrible sense of smugness that pervades the story. This is the sort of thing you see in... that series we don't talk about anymore, and in countless Star Wars/Star Trek crossovers, and, in my opinion, in Singularity Sky, as well as Missile Gap and a few of Stross's other stories where he seems to delight in having advanced transhuman forces blow up silly conventional science fiction.

I can understand why someone would want to see a fictional entity they don't like being crushed by one they like or dislike less, but I couldn't enjoy it, because honestly, what is the point? If you write a story where the Galactic Empire blows up Pandora or the Time Lords throw the Draka into the 9th dimension to be eaten by the Hyperdogs, or whatever, what does it matter? Those people still win in their own stories, and those stories are likely to be much better than yours because they have some kind of purpose and plot besides 'people I don't like are punished for being disliked by me'

[Uraniun235]

As it says in the tin. What are some curbstomps that you would like to watch?

I would like to see a pony's hoof stamping on a human face, forever.

[Gurgeh]

Systems Commonwealth(pre fall) vs Galactic Empire.

[Stark]

Above and beyond the daft things people have said in this thread, the complete lack of ability for DirtNumbers to respond to anything or even discuss his own random ideas is amazing.

I honestly don't think he understands that people are mocking him - and yet those 'joke' suggestions generally contain more information than his posts!

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh, here's another one: The Doctor vs a Terminator. Any Terminator. Two words: Sonic Screwdriver.