Energy weapons done well

[edaw1982]

Are there any TV series or movies where energy weapons are portrayed 'accurately'?
Instead of the atypical Buck Rogers pew-pew glowing beam/pulse of death style ray gun, something more along the lines of say an x-ray laser that doesn't show in the visible spectrum or with any noise?

I know of Starship Operators, and Planetes.

Also, when did Ray guns start becoming passé? When was it not cool to show zappy death guns and for a sci-fi to be 'Serious' guns had to be either 'just-like-we-have-now-but-with-bulky-attachments-and-maybe-caseless' or 'Whee-gauss-rifles!'?

[Molyneux]

Are there any TV series or movies where energy weapons are portrayed 'accurately'?
Instead of the atypical Buck Rogers pew-pew glowing beam/pulse of death style ray gun, something more along the lines of say an x-ray laser that doesn't show in the visible spectrum or with any noise?

I know of Starship Operators, and Planetes.

Also, when did Ray guns start becoming passé? When was it not cool to show zappy death guns and for a sci-fi to be 'Serious' guns had to be either 'just-like-we-have-now-but-with-bulky-attachments-and-maybe-caseless' or 'Whee-gauss-rifles!'?

Probably around the late 80s or early 90s - or whenever cyberpunk really started hitting mainstream consciousness.

[VarrusTheEthical]

On the second question, at least in regards to personal firearms, there's the question of practicality. Modern slug-throwers are pretty good a killing things, and a laser rifle probably would not be much more lethal while at the same time being much more expensive. IMO, I think handheld Lasers would be niche weapons, filling specialized rolls. A Laser anti-materiel rifle would likely have some utility, for example.

There's also the issue that many kinds of energy weapons would be dangerous to use in close quarters. For example, there's potential that when you zap a target with a laser, some of the light will be reflected off the target and into your eyes, potentially damaging them if you're not wearing eye protection, kinda like how normal guns can damage hearing. Also, here's a fun fact, if you shoot a person with a Laser, chances are it will not create a nice discrete burn-hole. Instead, the area that was hit by the Laser beam will explode into a bloody mess due to flash boiling of body's water.

Particle beams are potentially even more dangerous, as they essentially squirt out ionizing radiation. So I hope you have a lead apron handy if you plan on firing one.

[Uraniun235]

Aw, who cares about that realism bullshit anyway?


That said, guns are cheaper to portray than lasers.

[FaxModem1]

Gargoyles portrayed energy weapons rather accurately if I remember correctly. The laser was only visible because it was a targeting laser, meant to help the shooter line up their target, and the actual beam was invisible.

[Almightyboredone]

From what I remember of the oBSG, the handguns they used didn't have any beams, so much as spark explosions when they hit Cylons or whatever.

[edaw1982]

True, it's easier to go with what people know; and for the time being people *know* slug-throwers.
Energy weapons would make good anti-material roles though, I mean look at the size of the laser "rifle" in Akira (or the nod-to in Human Revolution). If that's not 'Anti-material-sized-weapon', I don't know what is.

I guess it's like with the caseless-craze of the 80s; hence why modern brass-spitting firearms are the the norm even in games like Halo, where you'd think they'd have at least worked that issue out (over-heating and excess propellant gumming up the works) I mean what serviceman wouldn't like a weapon where you don't have to police the brass?

From a gameplay point of view, the effect of the brass spitting out is a neat graphical addition, because shiny brass spitting out the side of a rifle and going tink on the ground is fun to add into a game from an effects point of view.

Which makes Mass Effect interesting in that they've got a work-around for keeping with the whole 'Kinetic Kool' whilst still having a sci-fi flavour.

[Stark]

Is that the 'caseless craze' that never happened? Shit, even 'tech modern omg' RPGs like Shadowrun didn't even notice caseless shit until the 90s, and then it was just to say 'lol have more bullets now plz'. Maybe you just have a very narrow view of the 80s.

And hilariously, Blake's 7 had both guns that fired invisible beams (because it's cheap) and guns that had muzzle pyro that also fired invisible beams (because it's cheap). But honestly, who even cares? Next you'll start on the real issues, like night vision equipment with glowing green lenses or spaceships that need constant thrust to maintain speed.

In short, maybe it's time you started watching some Gundam.

[edaw1982]

Is that the 'caseless craze' that never happened? Shit, even 'tech modern omg' RPGs like Shadowrun didn't even notice caseless shit until the 90s, and then it was just to say 'lol have more bullets now plz'. Maybe you just have a very narrow view of the 80s.

And hilariously, Blake's 7 had both guns that fired invisible beams (because it's cheap) and guns that had muzzle pyro that also fired invisible beams (because it's cheap). But honestly, who even cares? Next you'll start on the real issues, like night vision equipment with glowing green lenses or spaceships that need constant thrust to maintain speed.

In short, maybe it's time you started watching some Gundam.

You mean night vision goggles don't glow in the dark or make an audible 'TWeeeee' noise? B-but that means the games have lied to me all this time?

But joking aside, the examples mentioned in Blake 7 and the old Battlestar, that's what I'm talking about.
Of course, it was done purely for a budgetry standpoint, I mean it's cheaper to show a glowy light..then a squib on someone's torso..then they fall down dead or injured (if they're a main character who isn't destined to die just yet).

And which Gundam would you recommend, just out of curiosity? I've heard good things about 08th MS.

[Stark]

I don't really see a consistent trend in the way guns are presented in scifi, regardless of what people say here. Star Wars has influenced a lot of the 'pew pew' variety, but there are lots of presentation cliches that come and go (like guns that make rattling noises when you aim them at people) and I don't think the glowies have ever really been a 'required' part of science fiction, merely more or less common. If anything, in the 90s the blobs got even fatter and even slower (ID4), and that flows over into video games too. I'd like to say that pew pews are for when the battles have to 'look cool' or distinct from 'real' battles, and no pew pews are for when the violence needs to have a personal level, but I doubt that's meaningful either. Pew pews are just science fiction's version of the amazingly smokey missiles that nearly all modern fiction use.

UC Gundam has plenty of pew pews, because they're all silly particle beams, but they use lasers or mirror systems in a realistic way (even if the size of the mirror systems is improbably small). However, since the shows are largely fighter plane shows, there's a lot of tracer imagery.

[VF5SS]

And which Gundam would you recommend, just out of curiosity? I've heard good things about 08th MS.

If you're going to start Gundam there's no better place than the original movie trilogy. They are all available streaming online. Go here. These are subtitle only but these are truly great movies.

And Strak, don't be dissing the streaky sci-fi missiles of the Itano Circus :3

[Thinktank]

RE: Energy Weapons (For Reals)
Projectile weapons are just too damned light and reliable in a technical
level that provides easily mass produced ammunition. Energy weapons
always to seem to run up against the old problem of:
"Lightweight, Lethal, Reliable: You may pick only two."

I always noticed the biggest problem with a lightweight man portable energy
weapon was that the energy cell/magazine must be able to contain a staggering
amount of energy in a fragile, small, and likely unstable package. If your weapon
or ammo are hit by weapons' fire or a fragment. You and your whole team if not
city block just went away. After meeting a fellow who had a White Phosphorus
grenade get plugged by a sniper while he had it in hand... I am not big on the
idea of packing around a few multi Megajoule/Megafarad power cells. If one fails
containment. Adios Muchachos.

RE: Gundam.
After learning the trick of overlooking the "Magic Particle Science" that tends
to permeate the various Gundam franchises. The following UC series are ones I
really enjoyed:

Mobile Suit Gundam: Char's Counterattack (movie: 1988)
>I kind of cut my teeth on this Gundam installment.

Mobile Suit Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket (OVAs: 1989)
>Kind of the first attempt at a more realistic interpretation of Gundam.

Mobile Suit Gundam 0083: Stardust Memory (OVAs: 1991; compilation movie: 1992)
>I enjoyed this for many of the same reasons I enjoyed Macross Plus.

Mobile Suit Gundam: The 08th MS Team
>Gritty before it was kewl/de rigueur, and it really shows how bad-ass an ace is
>compared to regular joe trooper types. Norris Packard is part of my "Gundam
>Pantheon".

Mobile Suit Gundam: Unicorn
>The story has some buggy moments, but it is visually gorgeous and while
>the main character can get a litttle grating to me at times, the whole series is
>very "from the heart". That and it has a character called "Full Frontal" which
>never fails to activate some old nuerons from my 14th year when I hear his name.

[Stark]

Propellant for firearms is also often volatile. So what? If you need megga lazors, you better have giggatun shielding. Just build your setting around poor accuracy or active defence and forget about it. Next you'll say 'artillery is bad because ammo dumps are dangerous'. There's nothing 'right' or 'wrong' about either approach; you can have absolutely horrible bang-flash shows like nbsg and get a barrel of laughs out of pew pew shows.

Stop a) pressing enter at random and b) trying to markup posts like you're an email thread talking to yourself.

I don't think CCA can be recommended for new viewers, because it's pretty obtuse and silly and arguably 75% of the action is a rehash of MSG anyway. It might be worth it just for Amuro pulling heat on Char because he's sick of his bullshit, though. Calling 0080 'more realistic' is fucking bizarre; it's just a different perspective, like Igloo, of silly humanoid space fighter action.

[StarSword]

From what I remember of the oBSG, the handguns they used didn't have any beams, so much as spark explosions when they hit Cylons or whatever.

They didn't for about the first half of the series, no. After that, they did (ref. "Take the Celestra", among others). I'm told that the real life reason was that the crew changed VFX providers.

[HeadCreeps]

And which Gundam would you recommend, just out of curiosity? I've heard good things about 08th MS.

If you're going to start Gundam there's no better place than the original movie trilogy. They are all available streaming online. Go here. These are subtitle only but these are truly great movies.

And Strak, don't be dissing the streaky sci-fi missiles of the Itano Circus :3

The original stuff usually turns newcomers away. Nothing from Char's counterattack to earlier than that (ZZ/Z/OG) is a good idea to attract new viewers. Whether you dislike it or not, it's basically better to try something more current like Unicron/00/original Seed and if you can get them into that, you inundate them with all the fan-based gundam UC crap like Dynasty Warriors or toys or whatnot.

Char's counterattack was somewhat insulting because while it was visually impressive, the motivations of the characters are broken or just outright unlikeable and the context would be lost on new viewers. (rah rah bad guy wants to blow up teh earth!! is about what they'd get from it...which is sadly not inaccurate) 08th MS team might work, since you can still enjoy it with no real context on the one year war, but it still loses a lot. I'd be worried about the same problem happening with Unicron, but it's current with an absolutely amazing effects setup, so it can still be enjoyed in spite of no context.

[inviz345]

Doctor Who - The Tenth Planet because the episode is lost

[JPaganel]

Propellant for firearms is also often volatile.

No. Blackpowder is explosive, but only under certain conditions. It went out of general use over a hundred years ago, anyway. Smokeless powder used in modern firearms is not explosive at all, merely flammable. I have shot rifle rounds and even shotgun shells, which use a faster burning powder, with full power rifle rounds. The result, depending on the caliber of the bullet the round was shot with, ranged from a hole through the casing to the casing being split open, but in no case did the powder ignite.

If, by some miraculous chance, like being struck by an incendiary bullet or a tracer, the powder did ignite, it would still not be a big deal. Firearms work because the gas produced by the burning powder is contained in a small volume. Gas expands and moves the bullet. The same amount of gas in a larger volume will just dissipate in all directions. The amount of powder contained in your average rifle cartridge would produce a flash and a brief hiss when ignited outside a casing contained in a chamber. If you happen to be holding it in your hand, it will burn you, but it will be a fairly small burn. The powder will burn up so quickly that the cartridge next to the one affected will not heat up enough to cook off.

In short, should you get shot in the magazine, you will only be out the magazine and the ammo in it, nothing else. No flash, no boom, gun will still work.

[Stark]

You're right, ammo dumps never explode, and ammo cooking off is no danger for powerful weapons. Thus, the volatility of energy weapon power systems is a new threat no military would ever accept.

PROTIP - comparing ubberlaserz to small arms is stupid, because the super beams in high-power s ifi is generally required.

[JPaganel]

You're right, ammo dumps never explode

Pretty much. An ammo dump containing only standard small arms cartridges will not explode unless it's a tightly sealed enclosure. And if it is, how would the fire start? It will burn pretty damn hot, though. There might be some popping and cartridges might jump around like popcorn, but there is not much force to that.

[Stark]

Jesus christ, can you fucking read?

It's dumb to compare high-power energy weapons to small arms, because they fill a role that isn't comparable. It's like saying knives jam less than machineguns. If you need a megalazor to kill the poweramour space marines, who gives A FUCK about small arms? Saying a gun that can level a building in one shot might have a volatile power source is only a problem if bombs, artillery, rockets etc that can do the same thing are LESS volatile.

Actual weapons that might be comparable in output are volatile. OH SHIT THAT'S WHAT I SAID TWO WEEKS AGO RUN

[mutanthamster]

The best depiction of energy weapons ever is the original Dalek weapons. Just point in the general direction of the enemy and fry the lot and you can't even miss.