Turkey made an expensive decision in refusing to allow US forces to stage an attack into Iraq from their soil. They stand to lose a multi-billion dollar aid package, and their stock markets have already been adversely affected.
So, now what are the options for the US? Will Turkey cave and allow heavy forces to stage? Will light forces seize key terrain in Northern Iraq? When do you think the attack will be?
Which Course of Action?
Moderator: Edi
-
Dahak
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 7292
- Joined: 2002-10-29 12:08pm
- Location: Admiralty House, Landing, Manticore
- Contact:
Re: Which Course of Action?
It was the decision of the elected parliament of Turkey to vote against the motion of the Turkish government.jegs2 wrote:Turkey made an expensive decision in refusing to allow US forces to stage an attack into Iraq from their soil. They stand to lose a muti-billion dollar aid package, and their stock markets have already been adversely affected.
So, now what are the options for the US? Will Turkey cave and allow heavy forces to stage? Will light forces seize key terrain in Northern Iraq? When do you think the attack will be?
And said government already said they wont bring that motion into parliament again for the forseeable future.
Great Dolphin Conspiracy - Chatter box
"Implications: we have been intercepted deliberately by a means unknown, for a purpose unknown, and transferred to a place unknown by a form of intelligence unknown. Apart from the unknown, everything is obvious." ZORAC
GALE Force Euro Wimp
Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority.
-
Coyote
- Rabid Monkey
- Posts: 12464
- Joined: 2002-08-23 01:20am
- Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
- Contact:
I think America is about ready to take stock of the pricks and dicks over across the pond and hand out kudos to the bold and the brave. Turkey, France, Germany, and Belgium are going to be cold-shouldered from now on and their existence in NATO or the EU will be a thing of zero concern. Spain, UK, the Eastern Europeans and others who stand with us are going to get investements and other packages. This is going to be a long-term spat, I think.
Light forces and airborne troops will land in the north, with help from the Kurdish quasi-state there (so there, Turkey-- guess who gets the money?). At this point the mood I get is that America expects nothing from former friends and we're cynically making our 'naughty and nice' lists for future references.
Light forces and airborne troops will land in the north, with help from the Kurdish quasi-state there (so there, Turkey-- guess who gets the money?). At this point the mood I get is that America expects nothing from former friends and we're cynically making our 'naughty and nice' lists for future references.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
We yank the Aids package entirly and demand they pay up on older loans, sending the entire Turkish Ecnomey into a Tailspin
Then we ask them nicely agian if we can put Soilders on the ground
Its not smart to be mean to the Country that holds your economey by the gonads
Then we ask them nicely agian if we can put Soilders on the ground
Its not smart to be mean to the Country that holds your economey by the gonads
"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
-
Dahak
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 7292
- Joined: 2002-10-29 12:08pm
- Location: Admiralty House, Landing, Manticore
- Contact:
That's the problem with those pesky democracies. They have a tendency to have their own opinions. It would be so much easier if ther's just a nice, manipulabe dictator running the show </sarcasm>Mr Bean wrote:We yank the Aids package entirly and demand they pay up on older loans, sending the entire Turkish Ecnomey into a Tailspin
Then we ask them nicely agian if we can put Soilders on the ground
Its not smart to be mean to the Country that holds your economey by the gonads
It seems Turkey's parliament didn't like the notion of being up for sale to anyone...
Great Dolphin Conspiracy - Chatter box
"Implications: we have been intercepted deliberately by a means unknown, for a purpose unknown, and transferred to a place unknown by a form of intelligence unknown. Apart from the unknown, everything is obvious." ZORAC
GALE Force Euro Wimp
Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority.
The Turks have been pretty adamant that they will not be reconsidering this motion for some time. The president is up for special election Sunday so nothing will be done until next week at the earliest. If the decision is final then you have to get teh Fourth division there, unloaded, deploy them to the front, this will all take weeks, so we're looking at adding on what looks like another month just for the possibility to get a northern front. I'm gald that there was such a strong economic backlash, it shows just how important this all is and maybe they can realize that playing politics for a few extra billion dollars in aid wasn't exactly the smart thing to do.
Fuck that, Bush is already starting to wait too long, summer is getting very close and we need to get our butts in this ASAP. I say deploy the 82nd and 101st in the North. They had the deepest incusion in the Iraqi lines last time, and it is pretty clear that most of the fighting units have been pulled back to Baghdad. Sadaam wants the fighting there, so the light divisions should be fine securing space up North.
This baby needs to kick off by late March first week in April at the LATEST. We may be looking at several weeks of fighting and if that bastard starts popping off chemical weapons, I don't want our boys fighting in NBC gear in desert summer heat.
If we don't go by April, we're not going at all and that would be a damn shame. BTW, if this war goes the same way as last time, and we have something like a three day ground war, I am anciously awaiting all the protesters that cried about the hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties and US bodybags to SUCK IT DOWN.
Also expect France and Germany to quickly make conciliatory noises and want to "help" in the nation building...I say keep them out. We don't need fair weather allies in this, I say let some Eastern European nations help us out.
Fuck that, Bush is already starting to wait too long, summer is getting very close and we need to get our butts in this ASAP. I say deploy the 82nd and 101st in the North. They had the deepest incusion in the Iraqi lines last time, and it is pretty clear that most of the fighting units have been pulled back to Baghdad. Sadaam wants the fighting there, so the light divisions should be fine securing space up North.
This baby needs to kick off by late March first week in April at the LATEST. We may be looking at several weeks of fighting and if that bastard starts popping off chemical weapons, I don't want our boys fighting in NBC gear in desert summer heat.
If we don't go by April, we're not going at all and that would be a damn shame. BTW, if this war goes the same way as last time, and we have something like a three day ground war, I am anciously awaiting all the protesters that cried about the hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties and US bodybags to SUCK IT DOWN.
Also expect France and Germany to quickly make conciliatory noises and want to "help" in the nation building...I say keep them out. We don't need fair weather allies in this, I say let some Eastern European nations help us out.
Wherever you go, there you are.
Ripped Shirt Monkey - BOTMWriter's Guild Cybertron's Finest Justice League
This updated sig brought to you by JME2
Ripped Shirt Monkey - BOTMWriter's Guild Cybertron's Finest Justice League
This updated sig brought to you by JME2
Turkey made their choice and now they have to live with it. I don't advocate any punitive actions against Turkey but we shouldn't go out of our way to make them feel special for a while.
As for the war, using light forces in the North is an option but one that I am not sure we really need. The defense the oilfields from oppertunism can be accomplished by having some forces bypass Bagdad and continue north while the majority of forces continue on to the capital. Sufficient airpower can deter any other country from taking a chunk out of Iraq and could deter Iraqis from burning the fields again, while sufficient ground forces move up from the south. Having light forces in the area will give Saddam's forces an easier (not easy) target than the advancing forces from the south and an oppertunity to score propaganda points against us.
If negotations in the UN start to bog down more than they are, I believe that Bush will attack with out UN resolution number 18. If he believes that #18 can be passed, he will wait until it is, then attack. Give it a week, maybe two. If it does not start by then, we would have lossed most of the inititive not to mention support by the public.
As always, IMHO.
edited once because my spelling is bad, but not that bad.
As for the war, using light forces in the North is an option but one that I am not sure we really need. The defense the oilfields from oppertunism can be accomplished by having some forces bypass Bagdad and continue north while the majority of forces continue on to the capital. Sufficient airpower can deter any other country from taking a chunk out of Iraq and could deter Iraqis from burning the fields again, while sufficient ground forces move up from the south. Having light forces in the area will give Saddam's forces an easier (not easy) target than the advancing forces from the south and an oppertunity to score propaganda points against us.
If negotations in the UN start to bog down more than they are, I believe that Bush will attack with out UN resolution number 18. If he believes that #18 can be passed, he will wait until it is, then attack. Give it a week, maybe two. If it does not start by then, we would have lossed most of the inititive not to mention support by the public.
As always, IMHO.
edited once because my spelling is bad, but not that bad.
Last edited by Knife on 2003-03-04 01:52pm, edited 1 time in total.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
Gdamn it! for once can't we just act as we are always protrayed? I mean how much more pissed off could folks get if we started acting like they thought we did?That's the problem with those pesky democracies. They have a tendency to have their own opinions. It would be so much easier if ther's just a nice, manipulabe dictator running the show
"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
-
Coyote
- Rabid Monkey
- Posts: 12464
- Joined: 2002-08-23 01:20am
- Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
- Contact:
It never fails-- all the Chicken Little Defeatniks run around and go "It's another Vietnam! It's another Vietnam!"
You can bet your ass that after Saddam is out-- and the icing on the cake would be happy Iraqis dancing in the streets as a result, al la Afghanistan-- that the European governments that have demonstrated the spinal consistency of Kleenex will come running up to be the first in line to see to it that their sacred precious oil deals are firmly in place and that they be there to help shape a new Iraqi democracy. All without spilling one drop of that thin pinkish drool that passes for blood among them.
And of course the Turks will suddenly insist that there be no Kurdish state, 'cause God forbid the Kurds actually have the opportunity to stand on their own two feet. Spain, UK, Eastern Europe... they'll get the mandate for helping to rebuild.
If the group of Eurowimps suddenly change their tune halfway through a successful war, I'd personally like to see them turned away-- obviously we don't need them. Mr. Bean is right-- if really, truly acted in the way that the rest of the world portrayed us, Iraq would have been speaking English months ago. Maybe that is what the French fear...
You can bet your ass that after Saddam is out-- and the icing on the cake would be happy Iraqis dancing in the streets as a result, al la Afghanistan-- that the European governments that have demonstrated the spinal consistency of Kleenex will come running up to be the first in line to see to it that their sacred precious oil deals are firmly in place and that they be there to help shape a new Iraqi democracy. All without spilling one drop of that thin pinkish drool that passes for blood among them.
And of course the Turks will suddenly insist that there be no Kurdish state, 'cause God forbid the Kurds actually have the opportunity to stand on their own two feet. Spain, UK, Eastern Europe... they'll get the mandate for helping to rebuild.
If the group of Eurowimps suddenly change their tune halfway through a successful war, I'd personally like to see them turned away-- obviously we don't need them. Mr. Bean is right-- if really, truly acted in the way that the rest of the world portrayed us, Iraq would have been speaking English months ago. Maybe that is what the French fear...
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
-
Col. Crackpot
- That Obnoxious Guy
- Posts: 10228
- Joined: 2002-10-28 05:04pm
- Location: Rhode Island
- Contact:
-
Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi
- What Kind of Username is That?
- Posts: 9254
- Joined: 2002-07-10 08:53pm
- Location: Back in PA
-
Coyote
- Rabid Monkey
- Posts: 12464
- Joined: 2002-08-23 01:20am
- Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
- Contact:
More likely, Turkey is hoping that now France and Germany, still controlling forces behind the EU, will approve their admission to the club. They saw France give the assfuck to the Eastern European countries for not playing along, so the Turks are hoping that the Euro will trump the Dollar in their future economic plans.
The Turks do have to live with their neighbors and there is some comprehension for this move, but I think this is short term gain and long term problematic for them.
The Turks do have to live with their neighbors and there is some comprehension for this move, but I think this is short term gain and long term problematic for them.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Don't foresee another "Vietnam." The terrain is entirely different. Outside of urban guerilla warfare, enemies would be limited in their choices, and if US forces occupied Iraq, they would control what came in and out of it, unlike Vietnam where they had to both work with an in-place South Vietnamese government and densely vegetated terrain that facilitated movement of guerillas and supplies in and out of the country. Furthermore, there is no groundswell of support for Saddam's regime in Iraq, unlike for the Communist movement in Vietnam. The two are completely dissimilar.Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:Of course, I'm betting my life savings (Yes, all 57 cents of it!) that whoever made the decision is thinking that losing aid would be nothing to "preventing another Vietnam".
