Phased Polaran Beams

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-03-04 05:15am

Are they more powerful than the phasers on Feddy starships?

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-03-04 09:54am

I've never seen DS9, but aren't they supposed to be more powerful??

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-03-04 10:01am

I don't think they really say. it's alluded that they're powerful because of their ability to go through Feddy shielding. Well, that was until the Feddies were able to adapt.

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2003-03-04 10:16am

Well Feds must have boosted their phaser strenght, since the USS Odessy phasers didn't even scrath the paint on the Jem'Hadar fighters. And in Dominion War, Galaxies could destroy Jem'Hadar fighters with no problem.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-03-04 10:26am

Dark Primus wrote:Well Feds must have boosted their phaser strenght, since the USS Odessy phasers didn't even scrath the paint on the Jem'Hadar fighters. And in Dominion War, Galaxies could destroy Jem'Hadar fighters with no problem.

Actually... The Defiant class is the only Starfleet ship class ever shown on screen to destroy Jem'Hadar ships.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-03-04 10:40am

Yeah, but I doubt it alone was able to inflict hundreds of losses for the Dominion.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-03-04 10:55am

As stated before, the phased polaron beams' main offensive capability was a shield piercing effect that rendered Federation shield useless until Call to Arms when teh Federation figure dout how to counteract this effect. Other than that, I have not seen any evidence that they are significantly more powerful than Federation phasers or disruptors.

However, there have been incidents where Fed ships have destroyed or damaged Dominion ships onscreen with their weapons.

The Centuar blasted the hell out of Sisko's Dominion fighter in the episode where they try to penetrate teh Dominion lines to blow up the White facility. (BTW is anyone else disappointed that their mission had NO EFFECT on the Dominion war effort. The White, a great achilles heel to give to the Dominion and it was never truly realized. Damn them) DS9 was blowing up Dominion ships left and right in Call to Arms. Sacrifice of Angels had several examples (granted mostly in the back ground shots) of Feddie ships trading shots and hurting Dominion ships. And I can't recall the final battle to Cardasia Prime, but wasn't there instances there as well? (Once you get past the Stock footage...UGH)

And also Klingon ships are shown to clearly destroy JemHadar ships in many episodes in the war. So, I think it is safe to say that Feddie ships were as much an offensive threat to the Dominion later on after the refits as teh Dominion was to the Federation.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-04 01:06pm

We need to keep in mind that the Odyssey was outnumbered and sporadically distributing its fire among several targets, while taking severe damage because of their inability to block the Dominion weapons. This probably degraded the effectiveness of their weapons by a great deal (they might have only gotten off a few full-power shots before their ship was all fucked up, and they didn't concentrate their fire on a single target), so that incident is not a fair basis for GCS firepower against JH ships.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-03-04 01:55pm

Also the Oddysees fight was the first Real fight the Federation had against the JH

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2003-03-05 11:25am

Darth Wong wrote:We need to keep in mind that the Odyssey was outnumbered and sporadically distributing its fire among several targets, while taking severe damage because of their inability to block the Dominion weapons. This probably degraded the effectiveness of their weapons by a great deal (they might have only gotten off a few full-power shots before their ship was all fucked up, and they didn't concentrate their fire on a single target), so that incident is not a fair basis for GCS firepower against JH ships.

That might be true. The Odyssey was not really an upgraded combat version of the Galaxy class. And considering how the bridge was shaking a lot after has taken some hits, means the ships systems was probably disrupted and even damaged to some degree. If the phasers lost power it would also explain why they dumped the shield power to the weapons.
But I do wonder why not use photon torpedoes, since they have a tendency to succeed where the phasers fails, at least that is the impression I am getting.

Typhonis 1 wrote:Also the Oddysees fight was the first Real fight the Federation had against the JH

The Founders/Vorta had probably planned this for some time. They knew Federation would send a strong message by sending in a Galaxy class, which by Federation standards a very powerful ship. And the Dominion wanted to test the Federations technology, and a real battle does reveal a lot of information on your foes. Then ramming the Odyssey, destroying it in order to make a statement.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-03-05 04:32pm

If the Jemmies had been vastly superior to the Galaxy, then they would not have rammed it.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-03-05 04:35pm

Darth Wong wrote:We need to keep in mind that the Odyssey was outnumbered and sporadically distributing its fire among several targets, while taking severe damage because of their inability to block the Dominion weapons. This probably degraded the effectiveness of their weapons by a great deal (they might have only gotten off a few full-power shots before their ship was all fucked up, and they didn't concentrate their fire on a single target), so that incident is not a fair basis for GCS firepower against JH ships.

It also didn't help matters that Capt. Keogh was an idiot, who left his ship wallowing about like a garbage scow and failed to fully employ the arsenal he had at his command. He essentially let the Jem'hadar take target practise on the Odyssey, and it cost him his ship and his life.

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2003-03-05 05:05pm

Howedar wrote:If the Jemmies had been vastly superior to the Galaxy, then they would not have rammed it.

That is not the point. It was clearly they wanted to destroy the ship and wanted to prove how far they were willing to go in order to do so.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-03-05 05:34pm

Yeah, this Keogh guy did the samething as Riker did in Generations; instead of blowing those poor Jemmie bastards straight to hell, he fought like his ship was a damn Nova or Norway, instead of a Galaxy.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-03-06 01:28am

Just goes to show you how well they REMEBER there Accademy ship combat lessons....do they even have a starship combat COURSE??or is it a one hour thing like the airforces basic training in the m16 Two hours classroom and you fire 40 rounds thats it for basic.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-03-06 02:12pm

Stravo wrote: However, there have been incidents where Fed ships have destroyed or damaged Dominion ships onscreen with their weapons.

Let's not forget that Odo destroyed a Jem'Hadar bug with a Runabout in "Treachery, Faith, and the Great River".

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-03-06 02:25pm

Ted C wrote:
Stravo wrote: However, there have been incidents where Fed ships have destroyed or damaged Dominion ships onscreen with their weapons.
Let's not forget that Odo destroyed a Jem'Hadar bug with a Runabout in "Treachery, Faith, and the Great River".

Let's also not forget he exploited a previously unknown weakness that Weyoun told him about.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-03-06 11:08pm

Dark Primus wrote:
Howedar wrote:If the Jemmies had been vastly superior to the Galaxy, then they would not have rammed it.
That is not the point. It was clearly they wanted to destroy the ship and wanted to prove how far they were willing to go in order to do so.

Thats asinine. It would demonstrate to the Federation that the Jemmies were not so superior to a Galaxy, as they had to resort to ramming to destroy one.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-03-07 02:30am

Howedar wrote:
Dark Primus wrote:
Howedar wrote:If the Jemmies had been vastly superior to the Galaxy, then they would not have rammed it.
That is not the point. It was clearly they wanted to destroy the ship and wanted to prove how far they were willing to go in order to do so.
Thats asinine. It would demonstrate to the Federation that the Jemmies were not so superior to a Galaxy, as they had to resort to ramming to destroy one.

Well, that's not the message Sisko received.

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“We were retreating - there was no need for a suicide run” says O’Brien. “Their showing us how far they’re willing to go” replies Sisko.
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Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2003-03-07 08:42am

Howedar wrote:
Thats asinine. It would demonstrate to the Federation that the Jemmies were not so superior to a Galaxy, as they had to resort to ramming to destroy one.

Since they nearly cripled the Odyessy by weapons only, I doubt they needed to ram it in order to destroy it. Since the Galaxy was about to leave for the wormhole to the safe boundaries of the Alpha Quadrant they probably didn't have the time to destroy it by using standard weapons only, and that might have triggerd the responce to ram it.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-03-07 09:23am

Dark Primus wrote:
Howedar wrote:
Thats asinine. It would demonstrate to the Federation that the Jemmies were not so superior to a Galaxy, as they had to resort to ramming to destroy one.
Since they nearly cripled the Odyessy by weapons only, I doubt they needed to ram it in order to destroy it. Since the Galaxy was about to leave for the wormhole to the safe boundaries of the Alpha Quadrant they probably didn't have the time to destroy it by using standard weapons only, and that might have triggerd the responce to ram it.

The Odyssey was severely damaged at that point, and another volley from the Jem'hadar ships would have likely destroyed it outright. Deliberately ramming the Odyssey was quite simply a gesture, a way to make a point: We are much more powerful than you, and we will do anything necessary to win, even if it means ordering our own troops to deliberately kill themselves in a suicide attack.

That object lesson provided the Federation with incontrovertible evidence that it was faced with an utterly implacable foe that would do anything, no matter how terrible, to meet its goals. It also proved that the Dominion had troops that would unhesitatingly and unquestioningly do in cold blood what any sane troops would do only when insanely desperate. (And what's the expenditure of one attack ship and a few dozen Jem'hadar, with maybe one Vorta, to the Dominion?)

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2003-03-07 09:38am

Patrick Ogaard wrote:
Dark Primus wrote: Since they nearly cripled the Odyessy by weapons only, I doubt they needed to ram it in order to destroy it. Since the Galaxy was about to leave for the wormhole to the safe boundaries of the Alpha Quadrant they probably didn't have the time to destroy it by using standard weapons only, and that might have triggerd the responce to ram it.
The Odyssey was severely damaged at that point, and another volley from the Jem'hadar ships would have likely destroyed it outright. Deliberately ramming the Odyssey was quite simply a gesture, a way to make a point: We are much more powerful than you, and we will do anything necessary to win, even if it means ordering our own troops to deliberately kill themselves in a suicide attack.

Exactly my point.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2003-03-07 06:18pm

WTF is a Phased Polaron beam, anyways? What's a polaron? How does it ignore shields? What sort of crazy treknobabble is this?

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2003-03-08 12:20pm

Thirdfain wrote:WTF is a Phased Polaron beam, anyways? What's a polaron? How does it ignore shields? What sort of crazy treknobabble is this?

That's all it is. Treknobabble. Try to make no further sense of it lest you go insane, LOL.

We do know that the Odyssey tried changing shield frequencies, which didn't work. I think that was the point at which Keogh ordered shield power rerouted to the phasers (?).

The polaron weapons can be fired as short pulses, as against the Oddy and against Defiant in "One Little Ship," or as the beams we usually see.

They also seem to be configurable from "shield piercing" to "non-shield piercing": at the end of season five, Weyoun was surprised when DS9's shields held against Dominion fire; yet, as early as season three, we'd seen Runabouts take hits and report shield loss. This happened at least twice, in "The Die Is Cast" and in "In Purgatory's Shadow" (mid-point of season five).

Runabout shields can't be altogether different from capship shields. And I don't think the Jem'Hadar were simply nailing the shield generators in both cases (especially since there are none on the Runabout's aft "face").
Out of the Trek box, it's simply an inconsistency that the writers didn't catch, of course. Oh, the stupid rationalizations they force us to make...

I always found it interesting that the Dominion relied so heavily on shield-penetrators to one-up their enemies. They did have ships that could simply outmuscle others easily, like the battleships, but the Dominion in general has some strange attitudes about shielding. Their own shields seem pretty weak, eschewed in favor of heavier armor (or little armor and extreme agility). I wonder what kind of enemies they must've faced in the Gamma Quadrant that forced such an approach to ship-building?

Lord MJ · Post by **Lord MJ** » 2003-03-31 03:29pm

Actually the ramming didn't show weakness on the part of the Jem-Hadar, IMHO. Pretty much because the Odyssey was retreating and the Dominion wanted to make sure lots of Federation lives were lost. And considering the fact that the Dominion views it's warships and soldiers as expendable, it is certainly within thier MO.