Viability of anarchocapitalism

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Alyrium Denryle
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Sure. Who said there were not? Certainly not me. I am just pointing out that your blanket statement on the monopoly of force has some holes.
Not a monopoly on force. A monopoly on legitimate force. How they use that monopoly of course, varies.
No, they are not. In recent years some have accepted government assistance, but many have not. They are funded by user fees and donations and they govern themselves. That's how they are different from municipal FDs.
And as you say, they do not scale well if they do not. Additionally, there are other problems. For example, in history, someone who does not pay the fee can see their house burn down--if you do not do this, free rider problems get huge-- and this can endanger the homes of neighbors. Also in history, these sorts of departments, when laws do not exist to make damn sure they run a clean operation, will often become arsonists to collect the user fees, depending on how those are structured.
No. A ruler is a sovereign, someone with supreme power, one who can make the rules. A sheriff cannot create law.
For the purpose of this discussion, I am considering ruler to be someone legitimized by a set of laws to perform a government function. The moment you start holding elections and empowering someone to enforce some set of common law, you stop being anarchistic.
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Post by Crateria »

JPaganel wrote:
Crateria wrote:I suspect that the weapons trade will increase as a rule since there is less regulation of the black market.
Wait, what? By definition, there is no regulation on the black market and without regulation there is no black market.
I meant that no law enforcement except for armed citizens/PDAs would mean that dealing with the black market would be much harder.
Crateria wrote:Look at the Soviet Union after 1991. It was a first world nation when it collapsed and after a decade of quasi-anarcho-capitalist governance it was a second or third world nation like Brazil. The Mafia and their buds, with a cutthroat anarcho-capitalist mentality in store, ran the nation... right into the ground, that is!
There was absolutely nothing anarcho-anything about Russia. There was a government, and it did govern. Still does. And it's anything but hands-off. The government and the mafia are one and the same, but that is not because some anarchists took over in the absence of government. It is because the mafia is an outgrowth of the government. Today's oligarchs are yesterday's Komsomol functionaries. BTW, 1991 wasn't the radical change the West thinks it was. More of a repaint and a nameplate swap.
The New Russia, same as the old Russia? Sounds familiar...

I was unaware that there was not much difference in terms of the first 4 years until the system stabilized. I thought that it was what I thought Belarus was like: First 6 or so years- sorta-anarcho-capitalist rule that causes great chaos for the nation as the transition from Soviet Communism to predatory capitalism takes place, then the system stabilizes under a more centralized mafia-style rule with an authoritarian bent.
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

Post by JPaganel »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Not a monopoly on force. A monopoly on legitimate force. How they use that monopoly of course, varies.
To repeat myself, in the US there are circumstances under which private citizens can legally apply force up to and including deadly force. You actually agreed with this. Did you just do a 180, or do you contend that legal and legitimate are not the same thing?
Alyrium Denryle wrote:And as you say, they do not scale well if they do not.
"It works on a small scale" is not the same as "it doesn't work".
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Additionally, there are other problems. For example, in history, someone who does not pay the fee can see their house burn down--if you do not do this, free rider problems get huge-- and this can endanger the homes of neighbors.
Actually, they do come out and take preventive measures to avoid exactly this.
Alyrium Denryle wrote: Also in history, these sorts of departments, when laws do not exist to make damn sure they run a clean operation, will often become arsonists to collect the user fees, depending on how those are structured.
This I'd like to see. User fees are normally a yearly subscription setup. Has that happened? Do you have an example, by chance? Especially something supporting the contention that this happens often. Or is this just a worst case conjured up out of thin air?
Alyrium Denryle wrote:For the purpose of this discussion, I am considering ruler to be someone legitimized by a set of laws to perform a government function.
Jeebus... That makes every meter maid and city garbage collector a ruler...

Why redefine common words?
Alyrium Denryle wrote:The moment you start holding elections and empowering someone to enforce some set of common law, you stop being anarchistic.
That is only true for the more purist flavors of anarchism. Others allow for rules voluntarily accepted by the community. I don't think it's as hard of a line as you make it out to be.
Crateria wrote:The New Russia, same as the old Russia? Sounds familiar...

I was unaware that there was not much difference in terms of the first 4 years until the system stabilized. I thought that it was what I thought Belarus was like: First 6 or so years- sorta-anarcho-capitalist rule that causes great chaos for the nation as the transition from Soviet Communism to predatory capitalism takes place, then the system stabilizes under a more centralized mafia-style rule with an authoritarian bent.
There was a feeding frenzy, but it was not anarchistic. The government took a rather active part in it.
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

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To repeat myself, in the US there are circumstances under which private citizens can legally apply force up to and including deadly force. You actually agreed with this. Did you just do a 180, or do you contend that legal and legitimate are not the same thing?
No. I am saying that if a corporation has a monopoly on the production of coal and subcontracts some of the mining to increase efficiency, they still have the monopoly because they can revoke the subcontract.
"It works on a small scale" is not the same as "it doesn't work".
Anything can work on a small scale. On a scale small enough, you dont even need specialized labor and jobs necessarily. The Amish run a sort of anarcho-communist system, but their towns are so small the suffer massive inbreeding depression. So long as the community is small enough that everyone can monitor the behavior of everyone else, almost any political setup or social institution can function. It is when you start talking about large organized societies rather than isolated thorps and villages that you start needing specialized labor and specialized law-makers and enforcers to get things done.
This I'd like to see. User fees are normally a yearly subscription setup. Has that happened? Do you have an example, by chance? Especially something supporting the contention that this happens often. Or is this just a worst case conjured up out of thin air?
Note how I said "depending on how they are structured"?

Annual subscription fees would not have this problem. A price per fire does, and it is what happened in ancient rome, for example.
Actually, they do come out and take preventive measures to avoid exactly this.
And it is still non-optimal. You still have a house burned down, and life destroyed/lives ended. The potential for property damage outside that home. The costs are far higher than simply coercing someone to pay the fee in taxes and ensuring safety for everyone. You also end up with lower administrative costs, standardized training etc. For anything but a small rural community, this option does not work over well.
Jeebus... That makes every meter maid and city garbage collector a ruler...
My god, you are semantics whoring. You know what I mean. A person with an occupation the existence of which negates a condition of anarchy. There. Whether they rule or are agents of a ruler or ruling body is irrelevant. The existence of someone in the roll of a sheriff negates a condition of anarchy. As do elections, the existence of city garbage collection etc.
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

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HMS Conqueror wrote:Not that this is the main point, but I don't like when people butcher history. The borders of the post-Soviet states are neither arbitrary nor random: they are the borders of the SFSRs - Soviet analogues of US states -, which existed before, and then with different names and styles, after the collapse of what might be called the Soviet federal government. The way it proceeded is that Yeltsin become President of the Russian SFSR, and had it declare independence of the Soviet Union. Without Russia, the Soviet Union is not viable, and so the other SFSRs were forced to take similar action. Many of them didn't need much forcing. There was no period of anarchy in anything more than a figurative sense. For a few days there was uncertainty who would win the civil war (or, whether there would be one, if you prefer). But no uncertainty that someone would, and they were the state, or at least a state.
Not that you're an idiot, but you completely missed the point. I said Russia itself nearly disintegrated. You were obviously not there to understand that there was a time when Russia's own regions were barely under control by the "federal government". I never said SFR borders were random, or that I was talking about the government of the USSR and not Russia itself.

The rest is just bullshit shoveled on a point which was never made by me. Learn to fucking read.

God knows I am tolerant to idiocy. God give me strength not to lash out in BLIND SACRED RAGE against posts such as yours, the desire to do so is just overwhelming.
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

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Stas Bush wrote:
HMS Conqueror wrote:Not that this is the main point, but I don't like when people butcher history. The borders of the post-Soviet states are neither arbitrary nor random: they are the borders of the SFSRs - Soviet analogues of US states -, which existed before, and then with different names and styles, after the collapse of what might be called the Soviet federal government. The way it proceeded is that Yeltsin become President of the Russian SFSR, and had it declare independence of the Soviet Union. Without Russia, the Soviet Union is not viable, and so the other SFSRs were forced to take similar action. Many of them didn't need much forcing. There was no period of anarchy in anything more than a figurative sense. For a few days there was uncertainty who would win the civil war (or, whether there would be one, if you prefer). But no uncertainty that someone would, and they were the state, or at least a state.
Not that you're an idiot, but you completely missed the point. I said Russia itself nearly disintegrated. You were obviously not there to understand that there was a time when Russia's own regions were barely under control by the "federal government". I never said SFR borders were random, or that I was talking about the government of the USSR and not Russia itself.

The rest is just bullshit shoveled on a point which was never made by me. Learn to fucking read.

God knows I am tolerant to idiocy. God give me strength not to lash out in BLIND SACRED RAGE against posts such as yours, the desire to do so is just overwhelming.
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

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Food for thought:
The Decline and Fall of Private Law in Iceland

by Roderick T. Long
Many libertarians are familiar with the system of private law that prevailed in Iceland during the Free Commonwealth period (930-1262). Market mechanisms, rather than a governmental monopoly of power, provided the incentives to cooperate and maintain order.

In outline, the system's main features were these: Legislative power was vested in the General Assembly (althingi); the legislators were Chieftains (godhar; singular, godhi) representing their Assemblymen (thingmenn; singular, thingmadhr). Every Icelander was attached to a Chieftain, either directly, by being an Assemblyman, or indirectly, by belonging to a household headed by an Assemblyman. A Chieftaincy (godhordh) was private property, which could be bought and sold. Representation was determined by choice rather than by place of residence; an Assemblyman could transfer his allegiance (and attendant fees) at will from one Chieftain to another without moving to a new district. Hence competition among Chieftains served to keep them in line.

The General Assembly passed laws, but had no executive authority; law enforcement was up to the individual, with the help of his friends, family, and Chieftain. Disputes were resolved either through private arbitration or through the court system administered by the General Assembly. Wrongdoers were required to pay financial restitution to their victims; those who refused were denied all legal protection in the future (and thus, e.g., could be killed with impunity). The claim to such compensation was itself a marketable commodity; a person too weak to enforce his claim could sell it to someone more powerful. This served to prevent the powerful from preying on the weak. Foreigners were scandalized by this "land without a king"; but Iceland's system appears to have kept the peace at least as well as those of its monarchical neighbors.

The success of the Icelandic Free Commonwealth's quasi-anarchistic legal institutions has been used by David Friedman, Bruce Benson, and others as evidence against the Hobbesian argument that cooperation is impossible in the absence of central authority.

But during the Sturlung Period (1230-1262), the Icelandic Free Commonwealth did eventually collapse into violent conflict and social chaos, and the King of Norway had to be called in to restore order. Doesn't this show that Hobbes was right after all?

Not necessarily. There is another possible interpretation.

In the year 1000, seventy years after the founding of the Free Commonwealth, Iceland was officially converted to Christianity, thus putting an end to a tradition of relative religious freedom. Before that time, most Icelanders worshipped the pagan Norse gods, but there were a few Christians. If you were a Christian you were required, along with your pagan neighbors, to pay a temple fee to maintain the temple of your chosen Chieftain, but otherwise you could worship more or less as you pleased.

But in the 990's, King Olaf I of Norway sent groups of militant Christian missionaries to proselytize through harassment and intimidation techniques. Those who resisted the word of God were sometimes beaten or killed. Moreover, the King captured and held as hostages the relatives of prominent Icelanders visiting Norway; Olaf threatened to maim or kill these hostages unless Christianity was declared Iceland's official religion.

Iceland, a resource-poor country without an army, and for whom the powerful and wealthy Norway was an indispensable trading partner, had to take the King's threats seriously. Even so, many Icelanders resisted, refusing to abandon their pagan beliefs. The island swiftly became divided into hostile opposing factions of Christians and pagans. A bloody civil war seemed imminent.

But this catastrophe was averted in typical Icelandic fashion: the dispute was submitted to arbitration. Just as, to the composers of the Icelandic Sagas, it seemed natural, when telling of a haunted house, to depict the protagonists as holding a trial on the spot and trying the ghosts for trespassing, and likewise to portray the ghosts as accepting the verdict and peacefully departing, so it seemed equally natural to the religious disputants, whose entire social system was based on conflict avoidance through voluntary arbitration, to set the matter before a respected member of the community — someone acceptable to both sides — and agree to accept his decision as binding.

The choice fell on Throgeirr Thorkelsson, a prominent pagan Chieftain with strong ties to the Christian camp. Thorkelsson decided in favor of the Christians, and so Christianity became the compulsory religion for all Icelanders. (This is a striking example of the respect for arbitration that often characterises cultures with systems of private or polycentric law; it's difficult to imagine a similar settlement being as successful today in the case of Ireland, Bosnia, South Africa, or Palestine.)

The end of religious pluralism in Iceland in the year 1000 bore fruit nearly a century later in 1097, when the compulsory Christian tithe was instituted. This fee, which all householders were required to pay, was divided into four parts. The first was for your bishop. (Iceland had two, one for the Northern Quarter and one for the other three Quarters.) The second was for your local priest. The third part went for the purpose of welfare relief; this portion, at the demand of the farmers, was collected and administered by the Cooperatives (hreppar; singular, hreppr), i.e., self-governing mutual-aid associations of independent householders; so local control was preserved in this instance. But the fourth and most important portion — the Churchstead fee — went for the maintenance and upkeep of church buildings. It was this last, innocent-sounding portion of the tithe that did most to undermine the Icelandic legal system.

All the good land in Iceland had more or less been claimed and occupied in the first century of settlement, and the Church as yet lacked the power to wrest any land away from its individual owners. Thus in Iceland, Christian churches were built not on church property but on private land; such tracts of land were called Churchsteads (stadhir; singular, stadhr). The money raised by the tithe to maintain property located on a Churchstead went to the private owner of that Churchstead. Thus, owning a Churchstead was a source of guaranteed income.

Fees to support Chieftains were compulsory too, of course; but the person paying the fee was free to determine its recipient. The following of a particular Chieftain was after all determined not by territorial sovereignty but by mutual consent; if your Chieftain were inclined to abuse his power or to neglect his obligations toward you, you could transfer your allegiance to a rival Chieftain without having to move from the district. This element of competition, remember, was what served to keep the ambition of the Chieftains in check.

Those paying the tithe, however, had no choice about which Churchsteads their money would go to; that was decided by the bishops. In other words, those who owned Churchsteads — generally Chieftains who had become Christian priests — got the money no matter what they did, and thus did not have to depend for their income on the good will of their clients. Hence the Churchstead fee, unlike the regular Chieftain fee, lacked the crucial element of accountability.

Moreover, the Churchstead fee, again unlike the Chieftain fee, was based on an assessment of the payer's property; this allowed for graduated taxation and the possibility of soaking the rich. Well, some of the rich. For of course those among the rich who were also Chieftains were exempted from having the value of their Chieftaincy taxed. Since a Chieftaincy was, directly and indirectly, the chief source of income for a Chieftain, this was very convenient for the Chieftains, who pushed the tithe law through the General Assembly (which by some strange coincidence consisted entirely of Chieftains!) under the pretext of public support for Christianity, a religion that Icelanders unsurprisingly revered after ninety-seven years of compulsory Christian indoctrination.

The original Chieftains were pagan priests; becoming Christian priests did not involve a major change in lifestyle for them. Under Icelandic law, despite the futile protests of their nominal superior the Norwegian archbishop, priests could take part in lawsuits and bloodfeuds. More importantly for present purposes, they could marry and have children. Hence, when a Chieftain-Priest who owned a Churchstead died, the right to receive the Churchstead fee would pass to his children rather than reverting to the Church. Since recipients of Churchstead fees did not have to compete for the good will of their clients, those families that owned Churchsteads were able to accumulate wealth and power without the traditional restraint of the market.

Over time, wealth and power began accordingly to be concentrated in the hands of a few families, as those who owned Churchsteads used their new income to buy up, or enable relatives to buy up, Chieftaincies belonging to other Chieftains. By the time of the Sturlung Period, this had led to the emergence of a privileged elite called storgodhar ("Big" Chieftains). Since the total number of Chieftaincies was fixed by law, competition among Chieftains became less effective as more and more Chieftaincies passed into the hands of storgodhar families. Less competition meant that Chieftains could charge arbitrarily high prices for their services, often forcing their Assemblymen into the role of propertyless dependents. The seeds of territorial sovereignty were sown as many Chieftains began to acquire exclusive monopoly control over their districts. The Free Commonwealth was beginning to succumb to an alien disease common throughout Europe but hitherto unknown in Iceland — feudalism.

In the absence of the earlier competitive check on abuse of power, the storgodhar grew so powerful during the Sturlung Period that they became able, for the first time in Iceland's history, to impose general taxation whose revenues went directly to support the governing elite, without the disguise of supporting Christianity. Moreover, now that ownership of Churchsteads had become the road to political power, contests over Churchsteads were more important than traditional contests over ordinary sorts of property; more people's interests were involved, conflict was more likely, and disputes once settled through arbitration were now settled on the battlefield.

In 1000, Iceland's unique institutions of voluntary coordination had averted civil war. But those institutions, and the market incentives that had served to maintain them, had now been undermined. Iceland saw its first full-scale battles as power struggles among the elite families and their respective supporters erupted across the land. This was the Sturlung Period (1230-1262), named after one of the most important storgodhar families.

Norwegian influence served to exacerbate the conflict. The King of Norway had always been lurking in the background, and now it was understandably tempting to each of the various competing parties to attempt to enlist him on their side. These shifting alliances and power plays further destabilized the Icelandic situation, as King Haakon of Norway eagerly encouraged conflict, dissension, mistrust, and confusion.

Finally, in 1262, King Haakon graciously offered to come in and quell the conflict he had helped to create. A desperate Iceland, ravaged by civil war, accepted his offer, and submitted to Norwegian rule. The Icelandic Free Commonwealth, founded 332 years earlier by refugees from the tyranny of Norway's first monarch, Harald Fairhair, fell at last under the yoke of a Norwegian King.
MORAL:
The Icelandic Free Commonwealth's downfall was not that it was too anarchistic, but rather that it was not anarchistic enough!

Suppose Iceland had maintained competition in religion the way it had competition in law. Or again, suppose Iceland had continued to rely solely on voluntary support for religion rather than making the tithe mandatory. In either case, the owners of Churchsteads would not have had an automatic guarantee of income, and so could not have accumulated wealth and power without being subject to competition and accountable to their clients.

Moreover, if the upper limit on the total number of Chieftaincies had not been fixed by law, new Chieftains would have been able to arise and challenge the emerging ruling class. The ruling families' strategy of buying up all the Chieftaincies would have failed, because it would not have decreased the potential number of independent Chieftains; hence competition would not have been undermined. If, for example, a Cooperative had been able to start up its own Chieftaincy, its members banding together for mutual aid and acting jointly as a kind of corporate Chieftain, the power of the storgodhar would have been severely undercut. Local control and accountability would have been strengthened, and the centralizing of power reversed. For that matter, if the supply of Chieftaincies had not been regulated by the legislature — or if there had been competing legislatures — it would have been much harder to institute the tithe law in the first place. Instead, the legal cap on Chieftaincies artificially restricted the supply of political power, while the tithe law artificially subsidized the demand for such power; a centralization of power in a few hands was the inevitable result. The instability of the Icelandic Free Commonwealth lay not in its anarchistic, polycentric features but in its governmental, monocentric features.

Foreign monocentrism also contributed to the Free Commonwealth's demise. If Norway had had a private or polycentric legal system, there would have been no King Olaf in 1000 to intimidate Iceland out of religious freedom, and no King Haakon in 1262 to encourage conflict and exploit its consequences. The problem of foreign states and the threat they pose is one of the most important ones for theorists of private law to discuss and resolve.

Yet despite the incipient monocentrism at home and the monocentric Norwegian threat next door, Iceland's polycentric legal system was so stable that the seeds of corruption took a remarkably long time to bloom: from the forcible conversion at the end of the tenth century, to the compulsory tithe at the end of the eleventh century, to the final collapse in the mid-thirteenth century. Is this the instability of anarchy portrayed by Hobbesians?

Moreover, as David Friedman has pointed out, examination of the historical evidence indicates that the murder rate in Iceland during the Sturlung Period — the era that Icelanders regarded as so intolerably violent as to justify abandoning their political system — was about the same as the murder rate in the United States today! Pre-Sturlung Iceland must thus have been even less violent than our own society.

Iceland's quasi-anarchistic system broke down only in the last thirty years of its existence, having worked successfully for three hundred years before that. We should be cautious in labeling as a failure a political experiment that flourished longer than the United States has even existed.
http://freenation.org/a/f13l1.html

Despite claims to the contrary, the problems faced by an anarchistic society cannot be completely plotted out ahead of time to avert disaster. Self-organizing communities would have so many variables that its an exercise in futility, to say the least, to predict with any certainty how things will play out. Further, its the responsibility of those living under such conditions to take care of the problems of their time as they will have access to facts we could not. No anarchist philosopher that I am aware of has stated its going to be sunshine and lollipops. Yes, there will be challenges. Yes, there will still be crime and there will still be evil assholes living in our midst. The main difference is such evil assholes and such crimes will not become government policy.
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Ryan Thunder
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

Post by Ryan Thunder »

Because there will be no government. Instead, they'll get together with like-minded people and create a government to their liking, not yours, and over you.

How is this not obvious?
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Crateria
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

Post by Crateria »

Ryan Thunder wrote:Because there will be no government. Instead, they'll get together with like-minded people and create a government to their liking, not yours, and over you.

How is this not obvious?
Don't bother, Ryan. He'll need first hand experience of his dream land going to hell in a handbasket to convince him otherwise.
Damn you know it. You so smart you brought up like history and shit. Laying down facts like you was a blues clues episode or something. How you get so smart? Like the puns and shit you use are wicked smart, Red Letter Moron! HAHAHAHAH!1 Fucks that is funny, you like should be on TV with Jeff Dunham and shit.-emersonlakeandbalmer
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

Post by BrooklynRedLeg »

Crateria wrote:Don't bother, Ryan. He'll need first hand experience of his dream land going to hell in a handbasket to convince him otherwise.
[sarcasm]You mean we would have to actually conduct the experiment to falsify the theory? Say it isn't so Buffalo Bill! My God, you mean we can't just take some person's word that it doesn't work?[/sarcasm]
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

Post by Simon_Jester »

Almost any social model works on a small enough scale that all the participants are known to each other and can be held personally accountable by private citizens. We evolved for that social milieu, after all, where you know everyone in the tribe, many of the people in the neighboring tribes (if you're semi-sedentary), and where pretty much anyone you don't know, someone you do know can vouch for.

It's when you have large groups of strangers who are mutually unknown to each other, and thus who can more easily get away with cheating and hurting and oppressing one another facelessly, that you start to weed out the bad social systems from the good...
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

I'm curious what kind of progress anarchist groups have made in the sciences? There's certainly plenty of evidence for small anarchist groups functioning but small groups have never, to my knowledge, made any meaningful contribution to the human race. They'll just consume natural resources and likely perish due to disease, natural disaster, or another large group wipes them out.

So, remind me again why anyone in the modern age would want an anarchist society?
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

Post by Academia Nut »

Here is essentially the question any anarchist has to answer, the one that they cannot answer because it destroys their position:

What mechanism would prevent anyone from deciding to form a government, that in of itself does not constitute a government

Without a mechanism in place to stop people from forming some form of government, inevitably some group is going to organize themselves into a new government, be it a town council, and elder's circle, a corporate oligarchy, a feudal monarchy, a representative democracy, or any of the possible myriad forms of government people have tried or could try. Just as there will always be psychopaths who muck things up for somebody, there will be some group of people that decide that they prefer specialization and handing the task of governance off to someone who makes it their job. Even if it is a small minority of people because you have managed to get the initial conditions for your utopian anarchy set up, some group will make that decision just because that is how people work.

Then the question is, how do you stop this re-emergence of government without somehow as a group deciding to take collective action? Especially since all governments do have mechanisms to stop the formation of new governments from within them.
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

Post by BrooklynRedLeg »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:I'm curious what kind of progress anarchist groups have made in the sciences? There's certainly plenty of evidence for small anarchist groups functioning but small groups have never, to my knowledge, made any meaningful contribution to the human race. They'll just consume natural resources and likely perish due to disease, natural disaster, or another large group wipes them out.

So, remind me again why anyone in the modern age would want an anarchist society?
Why would someone want to live in the modern world under a government when its a meaningless, consuming violent monopoly? And could you please give, I dunno, some rationale why an anarchist society would simply consume resources (ie - produce nothing) and perish from disease, disaster or a violent group wiping them out.
Academia Nut wrote:What mechanism would prevent anyone from deciding to form a government, that in of itself does not constitute a government
Nothing. Besides its irrelevant. Whatever some OTHER people decides to do, that is their business. The main moral theory of Free Market Anarchism is called The Non-Aggression Axiom: It is immoral to initiate force against another human being. Hand in hand with this is the concept of Retaliatory Force: It is moral to reply in kind with force to those that initiate force against you.

Even if it is a small minority of people because you have managed to get the initial conditions for your utopian anarchy set up, some group will make that decision just because that is how people work.
Please do not use the word utopia as it borders on an ad hominem in this instance. No Free Market Anarchist is suggesting its going to be all sunshine and lollipops.
Then the question is, how do you stop this re-emergence of government without somehow as a group deciding to take collective action? Especially since all governments do have mechanisms to stop the formation of new governments from within them.
As long as said government does not aggress against anarchists living peacefully, what should they care?
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

Post by Academia Nut »

Nothing. Besides its irrelevant. Whatever some OTHER people decides to do, that is their business. The main moral theory of Free Market Anarchism is called The Non-Aggression Axiom: It is immoral to initiate force against another human being. Hand in hand with this is the concept of Retaliatory Force: It is moral to reply in kind with force to those that initiate force against you.
What happens when you have a batch of immortal people who do not follow the non-aggression axiom but since they band together they outnumber family groups and can thus annihilate any individual with minimal losses, allowing them to plunder and pillage to their hearts content through the anarchist community? That's what pretty much any government does best: stop a group of random fucks from picking apart the community piece by piece. That's because an organized group of people is much better at defending itself than a bunch of individuals. But, and this is the key, they need to have some level of organization, some level of government to do it.
Please do not use the word utopia as it borders on an ad hominem in this instance. No Free Market Anarchist is suggesting its going to be all sunshine and lollipops.
I included utopian because there were previous objections whereby it was stated that previous examples of feudalism emerging from anarchy did not count as there were already power structures in place. I am saying that even in the best case scenario, people will band together into groups and delegate authority because people are some combination of lazy, stupid, and greedy. It was to remove 'but that was already there!' arguments.
As long as said government does not aggress against anarchists living peacefully, what should they care?
If they are not living peaceful with the anarchists, then what? By the simple fact that they are a group, they outnumber the anarchists. The anarchists are easy prey. Better yet, they offer a lot more than the anarchists can. The anarchists offer no safety or security, the violent proto-government does, from them, and as an added bonus, if you are accepted into the military caste you are given weapons and friends so that you can pillage and rape your neighbours. The anarchists have two options: annihilation or organization. And unless they want organized bands of marauders to keep arising, they have to stay organized. Either way, the anarchy has been replaced by a form of government.
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Why would someone want to live in the modern world under a government when its a meaningless, consuming violent monopoly? And could you please give, I dunno, some rationale why an anarchist society would simply consume resources (ie - produce nothing) and perish from disease, disaster or a violent group wiping them out.
Because said government provides them with things like roads, social safety nets, protection from violent criminals and foreign invaders, non-violent redress if someone does something through negligence that harms us, education, facilitates the sciences, and can organize large projects such as the construction of dams, non-medieval organization of cities, regulate and reduce environmental and other forms of economic externalities... Do I need to go on?

You will perish from disease, because you cannot mandate vaccination and enough people will refuse it to compromise herd immunity, and any foreign power who wants can invade your disorganized masturbation fantasy utopia. And there will be one. Eventually.
Nothing. Besides its irrelevant. Whatever some OTHER people decides to do, that is their business. The main moral theory of Free Market Anarchism is called The Non-Aggression Axiom: It is immoral to initiate force against another human being. Hand in hand with this is the concept of Retaliatory Force: It is moral to reply in kind with force to those that initiate force against you.
And what will you do if that government decides to impose itself on your utopia? That is right. Nothing. You cannot stop it forming, and you will be unable to organize or finance a military sufficient to resist even the army of a country with the means of Ethiopia, or the Sudan. You would be unable to defend yourselves against Somalian Pirates.
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

Post by CrateriaA »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:

And what will you do if that government decides to impose itself on your utopia? That is right. Nothing. You cannot stop it forming, and you will be unable to organize or finance a military sufficient to resist even the army of a country with the means of Ethiopia, or the Sudan. You would be unable to defend yourselves against Somalian Pirates.
:lol: Burn!

I suppose they could stand against the Somali Pirates, but not much after that. They'll be too busy squabling.

Though not to criticize you (though by you and some of the other people on here, blanket attack anarchism and its sub-sets, which includes me as well) but would you or someone else like to get into discussions with major anarchist thinkers? Just wondering.
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

CrateriaA wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:

And what will you do if that government decides to impose itself on your utopia? That is right. Nothing. You cannot stop it forming, and you will be unable to organize or finance a military sufficient to resist even the army of a country with the means of Ethiopia, or the Sudan. You would be unable to defend yourselves against Somalian Pirates.
:lol: Burn!

I suppose they could stand against the Somali Pirates, but not much after that. They'll be too busy squabling.

Though not to criticize you (though by you and some of the other people on here, blanket attack anarchism and its sub-sets, which includes me as well) but would you or someone else like to get into discussions with major anarchist thinkers? Just wondering.
They can think?
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

Post by CrateriaA »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:They can think?
lol. I C WUT U DID THAR.

I mean, I'm not seriously proposing this, but if you were to go into a debate with a major anarchist thinker (be it Chomsky, Zinn (oh wait he's dead, but still) or some other guy) would you think that you'd be able to beat them?
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

I am no so arrogant as to presume I would beat Chomsky, and it also depends on your definition of beating, and what the exact proposition was.
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

Post by ThomasP »

Chomsky is an entirely different flavor of anarchist, from an entirely different tradition of thought that predates, but is not wholly removed from, Marxism. Left-libertarian socialists and right-wing anarcho-capitalists are as different as night and day once you move past the general disregard for a powerful State.
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

Post by K. A. Pital »

Chomsky is a syndicalist, and syndicalists usually rely on "parallel structures" that arise instead of the nation-state and thereby allow the society to function coherently.

Right-wing anarchists can do that too, if they openly acknowledge they are going to rely on corporations and allow corporations to dominate the society, creating an alternate mechanism to ensure stability. However, they're so high on their "we're anti-corporatist! corporations are evil manifestations of the state!" horse that they basically squander their only strong argument: that corporations as huge hierarchical structures can replace the nation-state and its various branches.
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

BrooklynRedLeg wrote: Why would someone want to live in the modern world under a government when its a meaningless, consuming violent monopoly? And could you please give, I dunno, some rationale why an anarchist society would simply consume resources (ie - produce nothing) and perish from disease, disaster or a violent group wiping them out.
My rationale is that I am unable to find an anarchist society that does more than just consume resources. Are you aware of any anarchist group that exists today without the protection and assistance of society resources such as medication. A true anarchist society would have to be self sufficient. Meaning if a large natural disaster struck - it would need to survive this disaster. That doesn't mean everyone would need to die just that the community would need to survive.
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

Post by CrateriaA »

Stas Bush wrote: Right-wing anarchists can do that too, if they openly acknowledge they are going to rely on corporations and allow corporations to dominate the society, creating an alternate mechanism to ensure stability. However, they're so high on their "we're anti-corporatist! corporations are evil manifestations of the state!" horse that they basically squander their only strong argument: that corporations as huge hierarchical structures can replace the nation-state and its various branches.
Indeed. It makes me wonder though. Had corporations far less incentive to screw over their workers for profit and/or mass production, how might an anarcho-capitalist society that revolved around them exist?
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Re: Viability of anarchocapitalism

Post by CrateriaA »

Kamakazie Sith wrote: Are you aware of any anarchist group that exists today without the protection and assistance of society resources such as medication. A true anarchist society would have to be self sufficient. Meaning if a large natural disaster struck - it would need to survive this disaster. That doesn't mean everyone would need to die just that the community would need to survive.
As others have said, small communities can work. but, when a disaster comes their way, they had better hope that others can help them survive. Things like pollution in our modern day society take a lot of resources to combat, and we're united nations.

It reminds me of a saying about things like that: A little mess in your pool is a big deal if the pool is small. The small communities might have some protection but for others they'll have to trade and import.
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