FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

Post by BrooklynRedLeg »

Iranian Terror Plot: Fake, Fake, Fake
Not even good propaganda

by Justin Raimondo, October 12, 2011

Fake, fake, fake – I’m talking about the latest anti-Iranian propaganda coming out of Washington, which claims the Iranian Revolutionary Guards were involved in a “plot” to take out the Saudi ambassador to the US and blow up both the Saudi and Israeli embassies. The narrative reads like a formulaic melodrama: two Iranians, one a naturalized US citizen, purportedly approached someone they thought was a member of a Mexican drug cartel – according to the indictment [.pdf], it was a “sophisticated” drug cartel, not the plebeian sort – and proposed paying him $1.5 million to murder Adel al Jubeir, the Kingdom’s ambassador in Washington – oh, and by the way, the Iranians supposedly said, “Are you guys any good with explosives?”

The key to understanding just how fake this story is can be found in the New York Times report, which informs us:

“For the entire operation, the government’s confidential sources were monitored and guided by federal law enforcement agents, Preet Bharara, the United States Attorney for the Southern District, said in the news conference. ‘So no explosives were actually ever placed anywhere,’ he said, ‘and no one was actually in ever in any danger.’”

Translation: the whole thing is phony from beginning to end.

This is another one of US law enforcement’s manufactured “anti-terrorist” triumphs, where the feds set somebody up, fabricate a “crime” out of thin air, and then proceed to “solve” a case that never really existed to begin with. This has been the general pattern of our “anti-terrorist” operations in the US since the beginning – because finding and catching real terrorists is much too hard, at least for our Keystone Kops. Instead of going out and actually, you know, looking for the Bad Guys, and then apprehending them, they lure some unsuspecting Muslim immigrant into a trap, and spring it when the time is right.

The long narrative spun by the indictment tells us everything but what we really need to know, which is: how is it that these two Iranian “terrorists” just happened to meet up with a Mexican drug cartel assassin who just happened to be a longtime DEA informant? I guess that would be giving too much away: far better to spice up the story with scary details, such as the conversation between one of the alleged plotters and the informant, in the course of which the former says “If you have to blow up the restaurant and kill a hundred Americans, well then f*ck ‘em!”

The credibility rating of this story, taken on its face, is close to zero. Let’s say the Iranians really were plotting to kill the Saudi ambassador on American soil: would they contract it out to the Mexican Mafia, send all kinds of traceable money wires from Iran to the US, and not care if they killed a hundred Americans in the process of achieving their goal? Or would they send some fanatic, who would not only do it for free but also eliminate himself (or herself)? This flimsy cock-eyed tale is so transparently fake that it’s an embarrassment to the United States of America. Can’t our spooks do better than this?

This fabrication marks a new trend in the field of anti-Iranian war propaganda. Previously, the War Party was relying on the same technique they used in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq: the old “weapons of mass destruction” gambit. The big problem with that is it’s old, and tired: no one believes it anymore [.pdf]. Once burned, twice shy, as the saying goes. This latest lie is a fresh angle on a continuing theme, merely substituting Iran for the traditional bogeyman known as al-Qaeda.

That this story involves the Mexican drug cartels, and Attorney General Eric Holder proclaiming that we’re going to “hold the Iranian government accountable,” has got to be some kind of sick joke: after all, here is a man who stood by and watched while US law enforcement agents let guns travel over the US border to arm those very same cartels. Is this “coup” for the Justice Department the pay-off for that harebrained scheme – and when is Holder going to be held accountable?

That our government would float a narrative like this without any apparent regard for the basic rules of fiction-writing – create believable characters who do believable things – is Washington’s way of showing contempt for the Iranians, the American people, and anyone else who stands in the way of their war agenda. They don’t care if it’s not believable. They think Americans will swallow anything, that we’re too busy trying to survive day-to-day, these days, to inquire much further than the “official” account. And of course our brain-dead media, which is reduced to a chiefly stenographic role, isn’t going to ask any inconvenient questions.

This story is very scary – not because it’s credible, or believable, because it is neither. However, it’s the most frightening story I’ve heard in quite a while because it shows that the US government is bound and determined to go to war with Iran, no matter what the consequences. Throwing caution to the winds, our rulers have decided to go all out against Tehran – all the better to mask our current economic malaise under the damage done by the tripling and quadrupling of oil prices. This way, Obama can blame our crashing economy on Tehran, rather than his own discredited policies – and sideline the Republicans, who have been criticizing him for being “soft” on Iran.

The making of American foreign policy is all about domestic politics. By preparing the country for war with Iran, Obama will not only defang the GOP, but also appease the all-important Israel lobby, which has been beating the war drums for years.

What Obama and his gang are hoping is that the American people are too tired, too beaten down, and too broke to care enough about this latest exercise in war propaganda to question it. Certainly the “mainstream” media, which is Obama’s loudest cheering section, isn’t about to question it.

Here is where the administration has probably miscalculated: people are just angry enough to wonder “why now?” They’re just broke enough to resent being asked to pay for yet another holy crusade overseas. And they’re just tired enough of the bullsh*t that gets reported as “news” day after day to start asking all kinds of uncomfortable questions about this latest offering by the Washington fable factory.

The Americans are already backing away from the assertion that the Iranian government is directly responsible for the actions of these two individuals, averring that top Iranian officials didn’t “necessarily” know what was going on. As the details of this case become known, Holder’s story is going to start unraveling like a substandard sweater – and you can read all about that unraveling right here, at Antiwar.com….
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011 ... fake-fake/

Uh yea, I'd like to our government NOT start another war. Beyond the simple fact we cannot afford it, I'm sick and fucking tired of seeing dead women and children who happened to be 'in the wrong place at the wrong time' courtesy of some Predator Drone.
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

Post by Col. Crackpot »

BrooklynRedLeg wrote:
Iranian Terror Plot: Fake, Fake, Fake
Not even good propaganda

by Justin Raimondo, October 12, 2011

Fake, fake, fake – I’m talking about the latest anti-Iranian propaganda coming out of Washington, which claims the Iranian Revolutionary Guards were involved in a “plot” to take out the Saudi ambassador to the US and blow up both the Saudi and Israeli embassies. The narrative reads like a formulaic melodrama: two Iranians, one a naturalized US citizen, purportedly approached someone they thought was a member of a Mexican drug cartel – according to the indictment [.pdf], it was a “sophisticated” drug cartel, not the plebeian sort – and proposed paying him $1.5 million to murder Adel al Jubeir, the Kingdom’s ambassador in Washington – oh, and by the way, the Iranians supposedly said, “Are you guys any good with explosives?”

The key to understanding just how fake this story is can be found in the New York Times report, which informs us:

“For the entire operation, the government’s confidential sources were monitored and guided by federal law enforcement agents, Preet Bharara, the United States Attorney for the Southern District, said in the news conference. ‘So no explosives were actually ever placed anywhere,’ he said, ‘and no one was actually in ever in any danger.’”

Translation: the whole thing is phony from beginning to end.

This is another one of US law enforcement’s manufactured “anti-terrorist” triumphs, where the feds set somebody up, fabricate a “crime” out of thin air, and then proceed to “solve” a case that never really existed to begin with. This has been the general pattern of our “anti-terrorist” operations in the US since the beginning – because finding and catching real terrorists is much too hard, at least for our Keystone Kops. Instead of going out and actually, you know, looking for the Bad Guys, and then apprehending them, they lure some unsuspecting Muslim immigrant into a trap, and spring it when the time is right.

The long narrative spun by the indictment tells us everything but what we really need to know, which is: how is it that these two Iranian “terrorists” just happened to meet up with a Mexican drug cartel assassin who just happened to be a longtime DEA informant? I guess that would be giving too much away: far better to spice up the story with scary details, such as the conversation between one of the alleged plotters and the informant, in the course of which the former says “If you have to blow up the restaurant and kill a hundred Americans, well then f*ck ‘em!”

The credibility rating of this story, taken on its face, is close to zero. Let’s say the Iranians really were plotting to kill the Saudi ambassador on American soil: would they contract it out to the Mexican Mafia, send all kinds of traceable money wires from Iran to the US, and not care if they killed a hundred Americans in the process of achieving their goal? Or would they send some fanatic, who would not only do it for free but also eliminate himself (or herself)? This flimsy cock-eyed tale is so transparently fake that it’s an embarrassment to the United States of America. Can’t our spooks do better than this?

This fabrication marks a new trend in the field of anti-Iranian war propaganda. Previously, the War Party was relying on the same technique they used in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq: the old “weapons of mass destruction” gambit. The big problem with that is it’s old, and tired: no one believes it anymore [.pdf]. Once burned, twice shy, as the saying goes. This latest lie is a fresh angle on a continuing theme, merely substituting Iran for the traditional bogeyman known as al-Qaeda.

That this story involves the Mexican drug cartels, and Attorney General Eric Holder proclaiming that we’re going to “hold the Iranian government accountable,” has got to be some kind of sick joke: after all, here is a man who stood by and watched while US law enforcement agents let guns travel over the US border to arm those very same cartels. Is this “coup” for the Justice Department the pay-off for that harebrained scheme – and when is Holder going to be held accountable?

That our government would float a narrative like this without any apparent regard for the basic rules of fiction-writing – create believable characters who do believable things – is Washington’s way of showing contempt for the Iranians, the American people, and anyone else who stands in the way of their war agenda. They don’t care if it’s not believable. They think Americans will swallow anything, that we’re too busy trying to survive day-to-day, these days, to inquire much further than the “official” account. And of course our brain-dead media, which is reduced to a chiefly stenographic role, isn’t going to ask any inconvenient questions.

This story is very scary – not because it’s credible, or believable, because it is neither. However, it’s the most frightening story I’ve heard in quite a while because it shows that the US government is bound and determined to go to war with Iran, no matter what the consequences. Throwing caution to the winds, our rulers have decided to go all out against Tehran – all the better to mask our current economic malaise under the damage done by the tripling and quadrupling of oil prices. This way, Obama can blame our crashing economy on Tehran, rather than his own discredited policies – and sideline the Republicans, who have been criticizing him for being “soft” on Iran.

The making of American foreign policy is all about domestic politics. By preparing the country for war with Iran, Obama will not only defang the GOP, but also appease the all-important Israel lobby, which has been beating the war drums for years.

What Obama and his gang are hoping is that the American people are too tired, too beaten down, and too broke to care enough about this latest exercise in war propaganda to question it. Certainly the “mainstream” media, which is Obama’s loudest cheering section, isn’t about to question it.

Here is where the administration has probably miscalculated: people are just angry enough to wonder “why now?” They’re just broke enough to resent being asked to pay for yet another holy crusade overseas. And they’re just tired enough of the bullsh*t that gets reported as “news” day after day to start asking all kinds of uncomfortable questions about this latest offering by the Washington fable factory.

The Americans are already backing away from the assertion that the Iranian government is directly responsible for the actions of these two individuals, averring that top Iranian officials didn’t “necessarily” know what was going on. As the details of this case become known, Holder’s story is going to start unraveling like a substandard sweater – and you can read all about that unraveling right here, at Antiwar.com….
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011 ... fake-fake/

Uh yea, I'd like to our government NOT start another war. Beyond the simple fact we cannot afford it, I'm sick and fucking tired of seeing dead women and children who happened to be 'in the wrong place at the wrong time' courtesy of some Predator Drone.
This is sort of shit is precisely my problem with the anti war set. If this proves true people like this tool will have zero credibility after 'sticking his fingers in his ears, stomping his feet and screaming LIES!' at the top of his lungs. You can be anti war, accept the terror plot as legitimate and advocate non violent response. This may play well with the hardcore base, but makes you look like a douche to the mainstream. Get some PR people with a fucking clue.
"This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we’ll be lucky to live through it.” -Tom Clancy
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

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BrooklynRedLeg wrote: Uh yea, I'd like to our government NOT start another war. Beyond the simple fact we cannot afford it, I'm sick and fucking tired of seeing dead women and children who happened to be 'in the wrong place at the wrong time' courtesy of some Predator Drone.
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

Post by MKSheppard »

Samuel wrote:The Iranian government does not represent the people- the most recent election was rigged and protesters were quashed with force.
IIRC Ahmadinnerjacket gets most of his support from the rural population of Iran; which acts as a significant counterweight to the young hip, urban population which likes Potter.

After Vietraq and Afghanam; I'm highly cynical regarding claims of hidden reservoirs of support for western style neoliberalism as we traditionally understand it.
CrateriaA wrote:I think it'll become like Iraq after the first gulf war, with the US trying to contain Iran this time while also trying to keep A-Stan and VietRaq under control. Don't be suprised if Iran encourages the Hazari and the Shiites in Iraq to revolt, taking many lives with them before the rebellions are crushed. And we all know what happens when we move to crush a weakened, encircled "this will be a cakewalk" Iraqn.
Point taken on the insurgency formenting that Iran can try to pull; but we also have our own trained psychopaths friends allies ??? in Iraqi Kurds who are at face value pro-US.
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

Post by Samuel »

IIRC Ahmadinnerjacket gets most of his support from the rural population of Iran; which acts as a significant counterweight to the young hip, urban population which likes Potter.

After Vietraq and Afghanam; I'm highly cynical regarding claims of hidden reservoirs of support for western style neoliberalism as we traditionally understand it.
Oh, I have no doubt about that. They like American culture and toys, not necesarily our values. I just think bombing the cities (where the young, hip, urban people live) is not a great plan.
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

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MKSheppard wrote: After Vietraq and Afghanam; I'm highly cynical regarding claims of hidden reservoirs of support for western style neoliberalism as we traditionally understand it.
Neoliberalism? I don't understand why anybody would want that. Especially not Mideasterners.
CrateriaA wrote:I think it'll become like Iraq after the first gulf war, with the US trying to contain Iran this time while also trying to keep A-Stan and VietRaq under control. Don't be suprised if Iran encourages the Hazari and the Shiites in Iraq to revolt, taking many lives with them before the rebellions are crushed. And we all know what happens when we move to crush a weakened, encircled "this will be a cakewalk" Iraqn.
Point taken on the insurgency formenting that Iran can try to pull; but we also have our own trained psychopaths friends allies ??? in Iraqi Kurds who are at face value pro-US.[/quote]


The Kurds are notoriously corrupt. Sure, they were able to withstand Saddam's Iraq, but maybe not the Iranians this time.
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

Post by Col. Crackpot »

Destructionator XIII wrote:
MarshalPurnell wrote:Civil disobedience and nonviolent resistance only work when there is an underlying social conscience to appeal to.
Do Iranians not have a conscience?
Their government clearly doesn't.
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

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Col. Crackpot wrote:Their government clearly doesn't.
What government does have a conscience?
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

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After Vietraq and Afghanam; I'm highly cynical regarding claims of hidden reservoirs of support for western style neoliberalism as we traditionally understand it.
That's part of the problem. There's a huge set of people who look at anything other than a happy little western democracy right goddamn now as some sort of huge threat, and seem unwilling or unable to realise that there are all sorts of ways a country can look that don't look like the US or England or France and still be able to live more or less happily alongside them.
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

Post by Simon_Jester »

TheHammer wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Ham did it because he's an American Power fanboy, and kind of a dim one. Shroom did it because he's trolling, and so was happy to mock-suggest things in bad faith which everyone knows would be disastrous. This isn't worse than being a warmongering dimwit, but it is more annoying, especially from the point of view of people who know damn well that a war with Iran would be a bad idea, and know Shroom knows this.
Fuck off :finger:

My first response was hyperbole in response to the idea that we should only respond with "sanctions". I know full well the implications of a war with Iran. Which is why I'm not calling for a war. I'm calling for a justifiable military response against an Iranian military target...
In other words, an act of war.

You may think that when one nation's bombs fall on another nation's warships and blow them out of the water, there's no war on, and that this is purely a "justifiable military response" aganst a "military target."

That just goes to show you've forgotten Pearl Harbor. You are proposing, very specifically, to launch a Pearl Harbor style attack on the Iranians to punish them for the fact that some Iranian considered assassinating a Saudi envoy to the US. The fact that you do not consider this an act of war merely makes you dim.
Destructionator XIII wrote:
MarshalPurnell wrote:Civil disobedience and nonviolent resistance only work when there is an underlying social conscience to appeal to.
Do Iranians not have a conscience?
They have a conscience, one set firmly to "fundamentalist Shi'ite." A fundamentalist Shi'ite conscience will refuse to do many things we would happily do- because they are unconscionable. And it will happily do many things we would never do.

So appealing to their conscience as if it works just like yours is foolish. You must appeal to their conscience, the one that really exists, not the one you assume is lurking under the surface because secretly everyone in the world agrees with you.
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

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Destructionator XIII wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote:Their government clearly doesn't.
Fuck it, let's just nuke them all. Obviously, Jesus and Picard never had to deal with evil complexity of the real world!
Do you have anything useful to contribute besides strawmen and random quotes?
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

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Simon_Jester wrote:You are proposing, very specifically, to launch a Pearl Harbor style attack on the Iranians to punish them for the fact that some Iranian considered assassinating a Saudi envoy to the US. The fact that you do not consider this an act of war merely makes you dim.
Um. There's a big difference between writing a detailed plan on how to kill an ambassador; and then submitting it to your superior for rubber stamping and to be placed in the contigencies file in intelligence headquarters, and actually beginning the initial stages of the hit.

It really sucks for the Iranians that their supposed drug cartel contact was really a DEA Agent. :lol:
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

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Alkaloid wrote:That's part of the problem. There's a huge set of people who look at anything other than a happy little western democracy right goddamn now as some sort of huge threat, and seem unwilling or unable to realise that there are all sorts of ways a country can look that don't look like the US or England or France and still be able to live more or less happily alongside them.
To be honest; I wouldn't mind seeing Iran's government overthrown and replaced with a Putinist or CHINESE COMMUNIST style government. That said; Iran is a tad more sane than Saddam ever was; because significant amounts of decisionmaking is undertaken by a ruling council, rather than by one man alone.
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

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Destructionator XIII wrote:"You can be anti war, accept the terror plot as legitimate and advocate non violent response. "

I hate whomever said that.
right back atcha' Chief *clicks tongue, winks and does that pointy gun finger thing*
Destructionator XIII wrote:BTW if you think these quotes are random, you're even stupider than you look.
You mean the appeals to the authority of fictional people like Jesus and Jen Luc Picard? Who is stupid?
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

Post by Simon_Jester »

Destructionator XIII wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:So appealing to their conscience as if it works just like yours is foolish.
I must have missed the part of the Quran that said "thou shalt unconditionally hate America even if they doggedly refuse to give you any reason to attack them or even if they are charitable toward you". Or the part of my argument that said "assume things about them". I kinda figured the passage from the Book of Picard talking about communication would be a hint, but meh, diplomacy is for the weak.

Though I am assuming if we start murdering their people and continue confounding their politics that folks just might resent it or at least start defending themselves with a little more vigor. Who knows, maybe fundamentalist Shi'ites like that kind of thing.
You are completely missing the point.

Do not assume other people think just like you. Communicating with people only matters if you have something to say which they are willing to listen to, or vice versa. If the Iranian government does not share your values of peaceful secular democracy with iPods, blue jeans, and Hollywood blockbusters for all, and if the Iranian people don't particularly share those values either, then a long conversation in which you prate about the value of peace, secularism, democracy, iPods, blue jeans, and Hollywood blockbusters is a waste of your time and energy.

You must instead speak to them about things which they care about. Figuring out what they care about is a difficult problem, one that requires real thought, not idiot prating and Star Trek quotes.
PS Jesus was a prophet of Islam.
Which is a totally vapid and pointless observation.

The basic reason fundamentalist Islam dislikes the West has nothing to do with Christianity. Indeed, they would probably like us more if we were fundamentalist Christians, because then we would not pose much of a threat to their way of life: they have mechanisms for discouraging Muslims from converting to Christianity. What Islam has had trouble with is secularization- the Industrial Revolution creating an alternative way of life which does not match up well with Muslim traditions, and European colonialism making it impossible for Muslim societies to ignore or avoid the existence of this alternate way of life.

Fundamentalist Islam is a reaction against secularism, not a reaction against Christianity, which is not now and never was a serious enough threat to the Muslim self-image of how society ought to work to make Muslims react strongly.

The West becomes more secular, and more threatening to fundamentalist Muslim eyes, in proportion to the amount which it stops worrying so much about the cultural legacy of Christ.
Col. Crackpot wrote:Their government clearly doesn't.
Fuck it, let's just nuke them all. Obviously, Jesus and Picard never had to deal with evil complexity of the real world!
Picard certainly didn't. He's a fictional character, remember?

As for Jesus, well. You tell me whether he's a fictional character or not, and I'll tell you whether to extend the argument to him or not.
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

Post by Simon_Jester »

Since I might as well talk to a wall as try to explain complex concepts to you, I'm just going to ask a question and hope for a germane answer:

What, exactly, do you think US diplomatic communications with Iran, or other interactions between the two nations, should entail?
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

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Simon_Jester wrote:The West becomes more secular, and more threatening to fundamentalist Muslim eyes, in proportion to the amount which it stops worrying so much about the cultural legacy of Christ.
Is it the secularity of the West that makes fundamentalist Muslims so threatened, or is it all the geopolitical games the West has played in the Middle East? If the West didn't prop up a Shah in Iran, didn't send Rumsfeld to shake Saddam's hand while he was gassing Iranians, didn't surround Iran with occupied nations and/or West-friendly regimes like the KSA and the UAE - if the West did not do any of this, and instead just minded its own business while secularizing even more than current real-life levels, perhaps by turning into infidel sodomite atheist homobortionists, while otherwise not doing anything in and around the Iran region - would (Iranian) fundamentalist Muslims be more or less threatened by this?

Is not modern Iran's history, a revolution borne out of guys revolutionizing against a US-backed leader and regime who had nifty toys like F-14s, before going on to seize a US embassy and holding US diplos hostage, and then getting attacked by a US-backed Rumsfeld-handshaking regime, more about Iran reacting to perceived threats or enemies or interests that might be other than "secularism"? As far as I can tell, Russia and China are pretty secular too. Heck, China is much more secular than most Western powers. Yet Iran didn't seem to mind their godlessness too much.
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

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Shroom Man 777 wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:The West becomes more secular, and more threatening to fundamentalist Muslim eyes, in proportion to the amount which it stops worrying so much about the cultural legacy of Christ.
Is it the secularity of the West that makes fundamentalist Muslims so threatened, or is it all the geopolitical games the West has played in the Middle East? If the West didn't prop up a Shah in Iran, didn't send Rumsfeld to shake Saddam's hand while he was gassing Iranians, didn't surround Iran with occupied nations and/or West-friendly regimes like the KSA and the UAE - if the West did not do any of this, and instead just minded its own business while secularizing even more than current real-life levels, perhaps by turning into infidel sodomite atheist homobortionists, while otherwise not doing anything in and around the Iran region - would (Iranian) fundamentalist Muslims be more or less threatened by this?

Is not modern Iran's history, a revolution borne out of guys revolutionizing against a US-backed leader and regime who had nifty toys like F-14s, before going on to seize a US embassy and holding US diplos hostage, and then getting attacked by a US-backed Rumsfeld-handshaking regime, more about Iran reacting to perceived threats or enemies or interests that might be other than "secularism"? As far as I can tell, Russia and China are pretty secular too. Heck, China is much more secular than most Western powers. Yet Iran didn't seem to mind their godlessness too much.
This is all true. But don't forget that China and Russia don't hate Hezbollah and the Shiite militias in Iraq. Additionally, China and Russia have Islamic terrorist movements, but since the movements are partly affiliated with radical Sunnis like Al-Qaeda as well as having both countries support the regime, Iran doesn't hate them as much.
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

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Shroom Man 777 wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:The West becomes more secular, and more threatening to fundamentalist Muslim eyes, in proportion to the amount which it stops worrying so much about the cultural legacy of Christ.
Is it the secularity of the West that makes fundamentalist Muslims so threatened, or is it all the geopolitical games the West has played in the Middle East?
Both, but in different ways.

The geopolitical games make all Muslims scared and angry. Remember that the first generation of post-colonial Muslim governments were secular ones- Ataturk, Nasser, the Baathists, and so on. All people in the region opposed being reduced to the satellite states of powerful foreigners. This is why active wars were fought against Israel by secular Arab states back in the '40s and '60s- they didn't view the Israelis as infidels, they viewed them as foreign colonists attached to an imperialist project.

But ultimately, most of those secular governments started to fade, partly because they were not very successful at making ties with the average citizen. Instead, they relied heavily on "development" projects which were often too grandiose (paved highways for people too poor to afford motor vehicles), and on oil revenues which created a separate, technocratic economy run by foreign technicians while the majority of the population sat around and lived not much differently from the way they had decades ago.

Fundamentalist Islam is different. It existed during the colonial era, arguing that colonialists would be driven away if Muslims started living they way they were, by Allah, supposed to live. But it wasn't really about revenge and killing Europeans and whatnot, any more than Filipinos who crucify themselves are about killing Muslims for Jesus or something. It was about being really hardcore purist in your religious devotions.

What started to change in the '60s and '70s was that as the secular Muslim anti-colonialists became discredited, this pattern of Western culture, of mass media and new customs, started to infiltrate the richer, more urbanized parts of the Muslim world to an extent it never had before. Muslim girls were acting like Western girls, wearing more revealing clothing and dating more freely. Muslim art became less popular, while Hollywood became more popular. This pattern has continued to the present day, the infiltration of what some call 'soft power.'

Secular nationalist Muslim states have no response to this kind of thing. Some ignore it; others embrace it (Ataturk's laws about clothing and alphabets and whatnot were a precursor to this). Because while they resist and reject colonialism and exploitation, they don't have a strong cultural message of their own.

Fundamentalist Islam does have such a cultural message, one that puts a lot of effort into evoking the time when Islam was the most powerful force in the world, and saying that what needs to be done to bring that back is to be more pious, to adhere to an 'original' version of the Islamic faith which, frankly, they just made up. Moreover, adhering to fundamentalist Islam gives you a reason to think these powerful imperialist countries, with all their guns and money and pop culture, are actually in an important sense inferior to you- because you're Muslim and they're not.

In terms of colonialism and imperialism the Muslim world isn't worse off than it was a hundred years ago- probably better. But a lot of Muslims believe (with reason) that they're in danger of losing a culture war. It's the culture war aspect that has made fundamentalist Islam so much more powerful in the past few decades, not the anticolonial aspect- although this doesn't stop a fundamentalist Muslim government from invoking anticolonialism along with the culture war.
Is not modern Iran's history, a revolution borne out of guys revolutionizing against a US-backed leader and regime who had nifty toys like F-14s, before going on to seize a US embassy and holding US diplos hostage, and then getting attacked by a US-backed Rumsfeld-handshaking regime, more about Iran reacting to perceived threats or enemies or interests that might be other than "secularism"? As far as I can tell, Russia and China are pretty secular too. Heck, China is much more secular than most Western powers. Yet Iran didn't seem to mind their godlessness too much.
No. It's not just godlessness, it's proximity, and the fact that US and British influence (the Iranians are still paranoid about Britain- old history there) has affected and hurt Iran in the past plays a big role.

But what makes fundamentalist Islam powerful, as opposed to the many other kinds of Muslim governments that have existed since the decline of colonialism, is in large part the culture war. They can present themselves as a bulwark not just against Western invasions and bombing, but also against Western subversion and corruption. Whereas they can accuse more secular Muslim rulers, even ones who actively resist American military and political power, of collaborating with the American soft-power and cultural expansion that's crowding out Muslim culture.
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

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Now that we know what makes fundamentalist Muslims tick. How does this preclude what Destructionator was proposing, in talking to them as people, rather than "confounding their politics, killing their people, stealing their land, retarding their scientific progress and constantly threatening to blow up their shit"?

You brought up their radically different mindset as fundamentalist Muslims hostile to secularism, yet Russia and China are just as godless as the UK and the US, and Russia and China are able to communicate with Iran despite them being completely different (maybe not with peaceful secular democracy with iPods, blue jeans, and Hollywood blockbusters for all, but more on authoritarian communist state with tankskis, foot binding, and fried dog).

As you said. Russia and China don't have proximity, and the fact that neither of their influences affected and hurt (modern) Iran in the (recent) past plays a big role. So, it's not just the godlessness or secularity. Fundamentalist Muslim Iranians are able to communicate somewhat just fine with them because apparently they care more for the fact that neither nations fucked Iran over, and prioritized this over the fact that according to fundamentalist Muslimism these nations are also secular godless gaijins. Okay.


I can get that their (fundamental Muslim Iranians) pathological hatred for Western secularism stems from the fact that the West fucked them over in the past, and this has developed in both their geopolitical stance as a nation and their religulo-ideological outlook as a people. And this is why dialogue with Iran and the US/West is not going to be as easy as Destructionator make it sounds, because like many others they have loads of reasons both temporal and theological to hate America's guts. Which is unfortunate.

At least, that fundamentalist Muslimism doesn't prevent them at all from dealing with Russia or China and some other nations, because their not fucking Iran over in the past is valued more importantly by the fundamentalist Muslimists than their secular godless gaijinism.
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

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Iran is a peculiar combination of modernity and radical Islam, actually. They're a well-off nation, not too bad in terms of industrial development (firmly Second World I'd say). So if you want them to become more batshit crazy, just bomb them into the Dark Age like Afghanistan - results will follow immediately.

Those will not be "secularization", that is sure.
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

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We can always call it "freedomization". ;)
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

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Stas Bush wrote:Iran is a peculiar combination of modernity and radical Islam, actually. They're a well-off nation, not too bad in terms of industrial development (firmly Second World I'd say). So if you want them to become more batshit crazy, just bomb them into the Dark Age like Afghanistan - results will follow immediately.

Those will not be "secularization", that is sure.

not a single (sane) person here is advocating bombing them into the stone age so put away your strawmanki, comrade. We discussing what steps we can take to effective destabilize and punish the regime without fucking up the lives of the average Mahmoud on the street.
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

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not a single (sane) person here is advocating bombing them into the stone age so put away your strawmanki, comrade. We discussing what steps we can take to effective destabilize and punish the regime without fucking up the lives of the average Mahmoud on the street.
Right, because bombing Iranian people entirely unrelated to the plot is in no way going to affect the average Iranian on the street. Except he will always have to live with the knowledge that he might one day be bombed for something he had nothing to do with.
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Re: FBI stops Iran assasination attempt on Saudi Amb. to US

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What if the US simply arrested Ahmadinijad the next time he showed up in the US to speak at the UN?
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