Why does the SW vs ST debate still exist?

[Cesario]

No they wouldn't, as there is exactly zero evidence for that tactic having ever been used. At best, they chase each other at Warp with decidely superluminal relative velocities.

Actually there is evidence that warp strafing occurs and is a viable tactic - 'Elaan of Troyius'.

Is it? Or is it merely evidence for Picard being a copycat with his Picard Maneuvre? Because all the visuals I've been able to find so far very much hint at the Klingons Warping in, firing, and Warping out.

Huh, that tactic would be damn hard to defend against if you didn't have the ability to pursue your enemy at FTL speed.

Which the Empire doesn't....

[CrateriaA]

Is it? Or is it merely evidence for Picard being a copycat with his Picard Maneuvre? Because all the visuals I've been able to find so far very much hint at the Klingons Warping in, firing, and Warping out.

Huh, that tactic would be damn hard to defend against if you didn't have the ability to pursue your enemy at FTL speed.

Which the Empire doesn't....

Really? The Empire doesn't have FTL? Hyperspace ring a bell? Or how about getting a tractor beam on the other ship to stop it? Never mind the maneuver wouldn't work due to the Trek ships not having the weapons to take out the shields on the Imperial ship.

[Cesario]

Is it? Or is it merely evidence for Picard being a copycat with his Picard Maneuvre? Because all the visuals I've been able to find so far very much hint at the Klingons Warping in, firing, and Warping out.

Huh, that tactic would be damn hard to defend against if you didn't have the ability to pursue your enemy at FTL speed.

Which the Empire doesn't....

Really? The Empire doesn't have FTL? Hyperspace ring a bell?

Hyperspace doesn't let you dogfight with ships in Warp while you're pursuing them. Unless there is some really trippy EU material out there...

Or how about getting a tractor beam on the other ship to stop it?

I didn't call it impossible to defend against. I called it hard to defend against.

Never mind the maneuver wouldn't work due to the Trek ships not having the weapons to take out the shields on the Imperial ship.

Assuming we need to take out their shields.

[Batman]

Since the quote tags hate me with a passion, I'll just try to summarize-no, the Wars side can't take the fight to the Trek side FTL-their stardrive is way too fast. The best Wars can hope for is overshoot to a point where they figure Trek will stop for bagels and a bathroom break and engage them STL.

And I'm seriously interested in why you thing the Fed's wouldn't need to take out the ISD's shields.

[CrateriaA]

Hyperspace doesn't let you dogfight with ships in Warp while you're pursuing them. Unless there is some really trippy EU material out there...

True, but irrelevant.

Never mind the maneuver wouldn't work due to the Trek ships not having the weapons to take out the shields on the Imperial ship.

Assuming we need to take out their shields.[/quote]

Yes you do. You can't destroy the Imperial ship anyway due to the strength of the shields and hull.

[Cesario]

Since the quote tags hate me with a passion, I'll just try to summarize-no, the Wars side can't take the fight to the Trek side FTL-their stardrive is way too fast. The best Wars can hope for is overshoot to a point where they figure Trek will stop for bagels and a bathroom break and engage them STL.

Exactly.

And I'm seriously interested in why you thing the Fed's wouldn't need to take out the ISD's shields.

Is it standing policy to keep shields running at all times, even after your enemy has obviously fled the battlefield? Can Wars ships jump out of battle, turn around, and jump right back into the area dropping to STL at an arbitrary point of their choice?

Heck, if Wars ships can't manage that level of precision, it seems the entire versus war will be fought either in orbit of planets valuable to one power or the other, or at times and places of the Federation's choosing.

Hyperspace doesn't let you dogfight with ships in Warp while you're pursuing them. Unless there is some really trippy EU material out there...

True, but irrelevant.

That was the entire point, actually. If you can't pursue a ship into FTL, then it can jump in and out making attacks on you until you've finally got your navicomputer enough data to run away.

Slow FTL isn't always a bad thing.

Never mind the maneuver wouldn't work due to the Trek ships not having the weapons to take out the shields on the Imperial ship.

Assuming we need to take out their shields.

Yes you do. You can't destroy the Imperial ship anyway due to the strength of the shields and hull.

Eh, bypass both with an exotic delivery system. Subspace transporters, dimensional inverters, interphase devices.

You give your chief engineer 5 hours to come up with a way to penetrate the empire's defenses, and he'll whine about needing 10 until he delivers at hour 4.

[Batman]

Since the quote tags hate me with a passion, I'll just try to summarize-no, the Wars side can't take the fight to the Trek side FTL-their stardrive is way too fast. The best Wars can hope for is overshoot to a point where they figure Trek will stop for bagels and a bathroom break and engage them STL.

Exactly.

You do know this speed advantage essentially enable the Wars side to essentially ignore Starfleet while they flitter around trying to actually get to a battle in time, taking system after system while Starfleet's Greatest are playing catchup?

And I'm seriously interested in why you thing the Fed's wouldn't need to take out the ISD's shields.

Is it standing policy to keep shields running at all times, even after your enemy has obviously fled the battlefield? Can Wars ships jump out of battle, turn around, and jump right back into the area dropping to STL at an arbitrary point of their choice?

As that works both ways, what's your point? Besides, Starfleet never does that anyway. Guess what- as often as not, they drop into impulse drive a long way from their target.

Heck, if Wars ships can't manage that level of precision, it seems the entire versus war will be fought either in orbit of planets valuable to one power or the other, or at times and places of the Federation's choosing.

Um-no, due to the Wars side having a vast speed advantage. The Feds don't even get to decide where to concentrate because Wars is that much faster.

That was the entire point, actually. If you can't pursue a ship into FTL, then it can jump in and out making attacks on you until you've finally got your navicomputer enough data to run away.

Which would be relevant if that ship could actually hurt you. It can't. Besides, that works both ways. The Wars ship jumps out-only a couple thousand times faster than you can go-and while you're busy trying to figure out where the hell it went, it jumps in at the other side of the system and starts thrashing your infrastructure.

Slow FTL isn't always a bad thing.

It's not an autowin either.

Eh, bypass both with an exotic delivery system. Subspace transporters, dimensional inverters, interphase devices.
You give your chief engineer 5 hours to come up with a way to penetrate the empire's defenses, and he'll whine about needing 10 until he delivers at hour 4.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand automatic fail. The term you're looking for is 'baseless assumption'.

[CrateriaA]

That was the entire point, actually. If you can't pursue a ship into FTL, then it can jump in and out making attacks on you until you've finally got your navicomputer enough data to run away.

Slow FTL isn't always a bad thing.

Run away? Are you kidding me? Their shields could likely hold up to a Wolf 359-size fleet, if not more. So what if they can jump in and out making attacks? Will it damage the Empire? No it won't. Never mind the Empire can do the same due to Hyperdrive being much faster than even transwarp. All they have to do is spam probe droids into the ST Galaxy and discover routes for them to take. Then they maneuver to the Alpha Quadrant powers' planets and bombard them into submission and then run away before anybody gets their ships there. After a while the AQ Power's forces are spread all over the place trying to engage the Imp fleet while the Imps keep bombarding planets and destroying Starbases. Then the AQ power's ships can't be as easily repaired or refueled. Seeing what the Empire can do, the other AQ powers either surrender out of fear of their empires being crushed as easily or stay the hell away or gang up on the AQ power being depleted before their eyes.

Eh, bypass both with an exotic delivery system. Subspace transporters, dimensional inverters, interphase devices.

You give your chief engineer 5 hours to come up with a way to penetrate the empire's defenses, and he'll whine about needing 10 until he delivers at hour 4.

HAHAHAHAHA. Good luck trying to study a ship that's bouncing around the whole quadrant.

Don't give me the transporters BS. Their transporters can't beam through duranium or whatever, right? Or some other random material of the week. Guess what the Imp ship's hulls are likely made of? Transporters no worky.

And how many of those deus ex machinas exotic weapons do the Alpha Quadrant Powers have? Seems like they destroy one ship, then they're running low. Here's a song lyric which you didn't apparently think of:

Bounce a graviton particle beam off the main deflector dish. That's the way we do things, lad, we're making shit up as we wish.

EDIT: Damn, Bats beat me to it. I'll get you yet, caped crusader!

[Batman]

EDIT: Damn, Bats beat me to it. I'll get you yet, caped crusader!

That would very much surprise me.

[CrateriaA]

Star Wars ships are canonically damaged by things much weaker than Star Trek ships. It's a fucking myth that there's a big difference between them in anything but unseen extreme stats.

What might this be? Asteroids? (didn't destroy the ISD) A-Wing going through the Executor bridge? (still not destroyed, crashing into the DSII did that) What are you talking about?

And..

All they have to do is spam probe droids into the ST Galaxy and discover routes for them to take.

Do you have any clue how big a galaxy is?

The AQ Powers aren't said to control much. It shouldn't take long to scope out a lot of the AQ territory. Besides, they don't need to search and destroy that much anyway. Destroy a major planet's infrastructure and the Power is going to be having serious talks about if they should continue resisting. In this case, resistance is futile.

That would very much surprise me.

Of course it would. NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!

[Batman]

Star Wars ships are canonically damaged by things much weaker than Star Trek ships.

Oh really. What would that be?

It's a fucking myth that there's a big difference between them in anything but unseen extreme stats.

I am eagerly awaiting your canon quotes for that, or the visuals showing so.

And..

All they have to do is spam probe droids into the ST Galaxy and discover routes for them to take.

Do you have any clue how big a galaxy is?

Do YOU have any clue how many probe droids a single Star Destroyer represents resource-wise? The Empire has a bare bones minimum of 25,000 of them.

[Batman]

I note a complete and utter lack of quantification about the size of the drones, the speed they were going at, and how far they were from the ship, leave alone the direction.

It's irrelevant - they are harder targets to hit than Star Wars ships.

Prove it.

but ohes noes an X-wing might do a super slow swooping turn!11 Phasers can even track the target in flight while firing.

Prove it.

Fighters are logically useless in most soft sci-fi. The fact that Star Wars even uses the things speaks to their capship's weaknesses.

Thank you for admitting that you just hate space fighters an't can't be arsed to discuss evidence as indisputably in the movies because youhate the concept.

And if phasers are oh so accurate how do capital ships keep missing each other at spitball ranges? Routinely?

Where did this happen?
I can't think of *any* starship misses in TOS and TNG. Seriously, not a single one comes to mind.

Somebody apparently hasn't seen TWOK then.

How do Jem'Haddar bugs live long enough to successfully ram Federation ships?

Those are full sized ships with shields, full sized engines, and armor. They aren't fighters. And even so, they don't connect most the time!

The fact that they do connect says something for phaser accuracy. Those things are desgined to take out other capital ships yet cant take out bugs?

Also, if phasers are oh so incredibly accurate, how come they never, ever shoot down the slow as molasses photon torpedoes in the TNG+ era?

When were photon torpedoes ever fired at a Federation ship? I seriously can't think of even a single example. Maybe my brain is off tonight.

You DO know Klingons were the bad guys in TOS, and turned into the bad guys back during DS9, and nobody ever intercepted a photon torpedo from them, right?

Besides, photon torpedoes aren't even slow, aside from the one in Star Trek VI. They usually go from launch to connection in under a second.

You've clearly seen a different Star Trek than I have, then. TNG photorps if nothing else routinely move at the pathetic TUC speeds (or something within the order of magnitude). Easily enough time to shoot them down-if phasers where that precise.

[CrateriaA]

Where did this happen?

I can't think of *any* starship misses in TOS and TNG. Seriously, not a single one comes to mind.

The Orion ship moving far too fast for the E-nil to hit with phasers. Repeatedly. Worf epicly failing to hit the Borg tractor beam repeatedly despite the Cube neither moving nor being a small target. (Granted the tractor beam might have screwed up the targeting system, but still.) The Enterprise being jogged by a plasma storm or whatever and Sulu failed to hit the Reliant. The BOP in Generations (I think) trying to hit the lumbering E-D with disruptors and failing. The Borg Cube failing to hit part of the Enterprise despite it merely banking slowly to the left. ("Riker Alpha", oh that Riker, he's so clever)

How do Jem'Haddar bugs live long enough to successfully ram Federation ships?

Those are full sized ships with shields, full sized engines, and armor. They aren't fighters. And even so, they don't connect most the time!

Who cares? The fact that the Odysey exploded due to being hit shows how poorly made the Fed ships are. One big hit to the warp engines (those big honkin twinkies) and it's all over. Don't forget Cause and Effect. Especially after it being repeated more than four times.

Also, if phasers are oh so incredibly accurate, how come they never, ever shoot down the slow as molasses photon torpedoes in the TNG+ era?

When were photon torpedoes ever fired at a Federation ship? I seriously can't think of even a single example. Maybe my brain is off tonight.

I don't think anybody ever fired photons at a fed ship. But how about plasma torpedoes? Or the Borg energy draining weapon? (couldn't they have stopped it with photons?)

Besides, photon torpedoes aren't even slow, aside from the one in Star Trek VI. They usually go from launch to connection in under a second.

It still won't damage Imperial ships.

[Cesario]

Since the quote tags hate me with a passion, I'll just try to summarize-no, the Wars side can't take the fight to the Trek side FTL-their stardrive is way too fast. The best Wars can hope for is overshoot to a point where they figure Trek will stop for bagels and a bathroom break and engage them STL.

Exactly.

You do know this speed advantage essentially enable the Wars side to essentially ignore Starfleet while they flitter around trying to actually get to a battle in time, taking system after system while Starfleet's Greatest are playing catchup?

Yes I do. Doesn't change the other side-effects.

And I'm seriously interested in why you thing the Fed's wouldn't need to take out the ISD's shields.

Is it standing policy to keep shields running at all times, even after your enemy has obviously fled the battlefield? Can Wars ships jump out of battle, turn around, and jump right back into the area dropping to STL at an arbitrary point of their choice?

As that works both ways, what's your point? Besides, Starfleet never does that anyway. Guess what- as often as not, they drop into impulse drive a long way from their target.

Which would mean something if we weren't discussing a time that wasn't what happened.

Heck, if Wars ships can't manage that level of precision, it seems the entire versus war will be fought either in orbit of planets valuable to one power or the other, or at times and places of the Federation's choosing.

Um-no, due to the Wars side having a vast speed advantage. The Feds don't even get to decide where to concentrate because Wars is that much faster.

"In orbit of planets valuable to one power or another"

You read that, right?

That was the entire point, actually. If you can't pursue a ship into FTL, then it can jump in and out making attacks on you until you've finally got your navicomputer enough data to run away.

Which would be relevant if that ship could actually hurt you. It can't.

Baseless assumptions you say?

Besides, that works both ways. The Wars ship jumps out-only a couple thousand times faster than you can go-and while you're busy trying to figure out where the hell it went, it jumps in at the other side of the system and starts thrashing your infrastructure.

And when they jump in, we warp over there without needing to make an imprecise multisystem jump taking five minutes of calculations.

Slow FTL isn't always a bad thing.

It's not an autowin either.

When did I say it was again?

Eh, bypass both with an exotic delivery system. Subspace transporters, dimensional inverters, interphase devices.
You give your chief engineer 5 hours to come up with a way to penetrate the empire's defenses, and he'll whine about needing 10 until he delivers at hour 4.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand automatic fail. The term you're looking for is 'baseless assumption'.

What's baseless about the fact that Star Trek has a dozen exotic delivery systems that bypass shields and armor? What's baseless about the fact that Star Trek has a habit, when they're stumped on how to hurt the enemy, of asking the Chief Engineer to pull one of those out of his ass?

That was the entire point, actually. If you can't pursue a ship into FTL, then it can jump in and out making attacks on you until you've finally got your navicomputer enough data to run away.

Slow FTL isn't always a bad thing.

Run away? Are you kidding me?

That's what it's called when you hyperspace away in order to stop being harassed.

Their shields could likely hold up to a Wolf 359-size fleet, if not more. So what if they can jump in and out making attacks? Will it damage the Empire? No it won't.

Shields are always up in Wars-world, are they? That seems fairly inefficient to me.

Never mind the Empire can do the same due to Hyperdrive being much faster than even transwarp.

They have that level of precision and fine control, do they? Why do they need to make five minutes of calculations to just get the hell out of dodge, then? Why not just make a jump short enough that you're guarenteed not to hit anything?

All they have to do is spam probe droids into the ST Galaxy and discover routes for them to take.

Because Probe droids have no limits.

Then they maneuver to the Alpha Quadrant powers' planets and bombard them into submission and then run away before anybody gets their ships there.

Run away. And you had some problem with my characterization of this tactic why?

I'm still kind of curious, if the discrepency is half as severe as you're claiming, why they'd engage in the sort of overkill they never used in their own galaxy, mind you.

After a while the AQ Power's forces are spread all over the place trying to engage the Imp fleet while the Imps keep bombarding planets and destroying Starbases.

Like I said, battles happen in orbit of planets valuable to one power or the other if it isn't at a location of the Federation's choosing.

Then the AQ power's ships can't be as easily repaired or refueled.

Have you seen Voyager? Starfleet ships are damn self-sufficient. They don't need to go back to a home starbase to deal with repairs and refits. Congradulations on (somehow) blowing up all the federation worlds. Now you have an untouched Starfleet on its way to avenge itself on your worlds, with a lot more captains willing to use a doomsday device or two that your side is equally incapable of defending against.

Seeing what the Empire can do, the other AQ powers either surrender out of fear of their empires being crushed as easily or stay the hell away or gang up on the AQ power being depleted before their eyes.

Why would they gang up on the power that was wiped out fifteen minutes ago from their prospective again? How does that make tactical sense to them?

Eh, bypass both with an exotic delivery system. Subspace transporters, dimensional inverters, interphase devices.

You give your chief engineer 5 hours to come up with a way to penetrate the empire's defenses, and he'll whine about needing 10 until he delivers at hour 4.

HAHAHAHAHA. Good luck trying to study a ship that's bouncing around the whole quadrant.

Study it? A handful of sensor readings can give us ballpark estimates and the rest gets covered when we experiment in the next "battle".

Don't give me the transporters BS. Their transporters can't beam through duranium or whatever, right? Or some other random material of the week. Guess what the Imp ship's hulls are likely made of? Transporters no worky.

Normal transporters, no. (Though I love the fact that their bridge windows are apparently also solid Neuronium, dispite that incident with a starfighter in RotJ.)

Subspace transporters don't have those issues. Otherwise they'd have gotten Picard's supposed son to one of those planets seeded with raretanium ore and he'd have been perfectly safe from the Ferengi.

And how many of those deus ex machinas exotic weapons do the Alpha Quadrant Powers have?

Enough that one of them will work, even if you have to piss off a Captain enough to blow up the Universe out of spite before they get to that point.

Seems like they destroy one ship, then they're running low.

Because we all know that the only ship that ever runs into weird shit is the Enterprise, right?

Here's a song lyric which you didn't apparently think of:

Bounce a graviton particle beam off the main deflector dish. That's the way we do things, lad, we're making shit up as we wish.

I didn't think of it? I practically referenced it with my note on Chief Engineers.

Star Wars ships are canonically damaged by things much weaker than Star Trek ships. It's a fucking myth that there's a big difference between them in anything but unseen extreme stats.

What might this be? Asteroids? (didn't destroy the ISD)

Which brings to mind an interesting side-note. Pathetic navigation systems. The odds of successfully navigating an asteroid field in Wars, approximately 3720:1.

In Trek, you have to litter them with mines from ancient wars, exotic spatial phenomenon and Romulan Warbirds just to make things interesting. And they still get through that with way better than those odds.

A-Wing going through the Executor bridge? (still not destroyed, crashing into the DSII did that) What are you talking about?

Why do they have fighters (which even the main site agrees are weaker than Trek firepower) if they can't harm the other capital ships? (Except for the fact that they have been show to harm other capital ships with fighters, which the main site admits are weaker than Trek ships.)

And..

All they have to do is spam probe droids into the ST Galaxy and discover routes for them to take.

Do you have any clue how big a galaxy is?

The AQ Powers aren't said to control much. It shouldn't take long to scope out a lot of the AQ territory. Besides, they don't need to search and destroy that much anyway. Destroy a major planet's infrastructure and the Power is going to be having serious talks about if they should continue resisting. In this case, resistance is futile.

If you're destroying things that quickly, no one will have time to contemplate surrender. You won't give them the option. So instead, the surviving fleet develops certain extremist tendencies that should really worry you when you contemplate the sorts of superweapons the average Starfleet Captain has access to.

[Stark]

If only ST ships had the survivability of SW fighters, hey might be able to exploit whatever SW fighters do?

[Cesario]

If only ST ships had the survivability of SW fighters, hey might be able to exploit whatever SW fighters do?

Hence the horribly misnamed "warp strafing" tactic Batman was suggesting.

[CrateriaA]

That's what it's called when you hyperspace away in order to stop being harassed.

Harassed? How would they be harassed? More like laugh at the pathetic attempts to hurt the Imperial fleet.

Their shields could likely hold up to a Wolf 359-size fleet, if not more. So what if they can jump in and out making attacks? Will it damage the Empire? No it won't.

Shields are always up in Wars-world, are they? That seems fairly inefficient to me. [/quote]

I like how you ignore the fact that the Wars ship don't have to keep the shields up. Their hull will do just fine.

Never mind the Empire can do the same due to Hyperdrive being much faster than even transwarp.

They have that level of precision and fine control, do they? Why do they need to make five minutes of calculations to just get the hell out of dodge, then? Why not just make a jump short enough that you're guarenteed not to hit anything? [/quote]

Maybe the Star Wars galaxy is much more cluttered than the Star Trek one? Maybe the Imperial ships could do the same thing so it would be pointless?

All they have to do is spam probe droids into the ST Galaxy and discover routes for them to take.

Because Probe droids have no limits. [/quote]

We're assuming they start in the Alpha Quadrant, no? They're bound to find the Powers' planets soon regardless of how many Probe Droids they have.

Then they maneuver to the Alpha Quadrant powers' planets and bombard them into submission and then run away before anybody gets their ships there.

Run away. And you had some problem with my characterization of this tactic why?

I'm still kind of curious, if the discrepency is half as severe as you're claiming, why they'd engage in the sort of overkill they never used in their own galaxy, mind you. [/quote]
1. Come to think of it, they won't need to run away from the pathetic Trek fleets anyway. What they'll be doing here is a show of force- showing the Feds or whoever that they are not only immune to their fleets but they can move from one system to another rapidly and destroy much of what's there. It'll cow the AQ into submission.

2. The Empire already controls most of the galaxy. Besides, in the major confrontations with the rebels, the rebs can often have strategies or tech that allows them to evade the Empire. If not, then they're destroyed. Besides, it's likely a fair amount of the fleet is making sure people on various planets don't rebel, especially after Alderaan. If they throw the whole of their starfleet at the rebels entire planets will not stay under the Empire's control for long.

After a while the AQ Power's forces are spread all over the place trying to engage the Imp fleet while the Imps keep bombarding planets and destroying Starbases.

Like I said, battles happen in orbit of planets valuable to one power or the other if it isn't at a location of the Federation's choosing. [/quote] And this means... what?

Then the AQ power's ships can't be as easily repaired or refueled.

Have you seen Voyager? Starfleet ships are damn self-sufficient. They don't need to go back to a home starbase to deal with repairs and refits. Congradulations on (somehow) blowing up all the federation worlds. Now you have an untouched Starfleet on its way to avenge itself on your worlds, with a lot more captains willing to use a doomsday device or two that your side is equally incapable of defending against. [/quote] Really? They'd be that stupid as to keep fighting? Starfleet won't be untouched for long. There won't be much left if they come into combat. And don't give me the BS about some Doomsday Device being enough against the Empire.

Seeing what the Empire can do, the other AQ powers either surrender out of fear of their empires being crushed as easily or stay the hell away or gang up on the AQ power being depleted before their eyes.

Why would they gang up on the power that was wiped out fifteen minutes ago from their prospective again? How does that make tactical sense to them? [/quote] Wiped out as a meaningful threat. They go into the power's planets and claim them for themselves, preferably after notifying the Empire that there won't be any hostilities towards the Imperial fleet. Don't want to get stomped like a bug after all.

HAHAHAHAHA. Good luck trying to study a ship that's bouncing around the whole quadrant.

Study it? A handful of sensor readings can give us ballpark estimates and the rest gets covered when we experiment in the next "battle". [/quote] Yeah, the next battle in which the Imp ship comes out unscathed while the fleet is in ruins? Only one lesson to learn from that: give up or die.
[/quote]
Normal transporters, no. (Though I love the fact that their bridge windows are apparently also solid Neuronium, dispite that incident with a starfighter in RotJ.) [/quote] Uh maybe the starfighter had materials in it that made it stronger than the windows? Ever cross your mind?

Subspace transporters don't have those issues. Otherwise they'd have gotten Picard's supposed son to one of those planets seeded with raretanium ore and he'd have been perfectly safe from the Ferengi.

Never saw that. How powerful are these doom devices anyway?

And how many of those deus ex machinas exotic weapons do the Alpha Quadrant Powers have?

Enough that one of them will work, even if you have to piss off a Captain enough to blow up the Universe out of spite before they get to that point. [/quote] Vengeance and powerful weapons don't an effective battle plan make.

Seems like they destroy one ship, then they're running low.

Because we all know that the only ship that ever runs into weird shit is the Enterprise, right? [/quote] I'm talking about the doomsday devices. The fact that you're using them as your only resort to the overwhelming strength of the Empire proves that Trek has lost.

Here's a song lyric which you didn't apparently think of:

Bounce a graviton particle beam off the main deflector dish. That's the way we do things, lad, we're making shit up as we wish.

I didn't think of it? I practically referenced it with my note on Chief Engineers. [/quote] Whatever. My bad. But Trek will still lose in the end.

Star Wars ships are canonically damaged by things much weaker than Star Trek ships. It's a fucking myth that there's a big difference between them in anything but unseen extreme stats.

What might this be? Asteroids? (didn't destroy the ISD)

Which brings to mind an interesting side-note. Pathetic navigation systems. The odds of successfully navigating an asteroid field in Wars, approximately 3720:1.

In Trek, you have to litter them with mines from ancient wars, exotic spatial phenomenon and Romulan Warbirds just to make things interesting. And they still get through that with way better than those odds. [/quote] That asteroid field was huge and dense, didn't you see it? Since when has a Trek fleet had to make its way through one like that?

A-Wing going through the Executor bridge? (still not destroyed, crashing into the DSII did that) What are you talking about?

Why do they have fighters (which even the main site agrees are weaker than Trek firepower) if they can't harm the other capital ships? (Except for the fact that they have been show to harm other capital ships with fighters, which the main site admits are weaker than Trek ships.) [/quote] I dunno. But from a tactical view, maybe fighters are using armaments so powerful that they can rival capital ships.

And..

All they have to do is spam probe droids into the ST Galaxy and discover routes for them to take.

Do you have any clue how big a galaxy is?

The AQ Powers aren't said to control much. It shouldn't take long to scope out a lot of the AQ territory. Besides, they don't need to search and destroy that much anyway. Destroy a major planet's infrastructure and the Power is going to be having serious talks about if they should continue resisting. In this case, resistance is futile.

If you're destroying things that quickly, no one will have time to contemplate surrender. You won't give them the option. So instead, the surviving fleet develops certain extremist tendencies that should really worry you when you contemplate the sorts of superweapons the average Starfleet Captain has access to.[/quote] Did you even read that? I said destroy a major planet or more, not totally wipe out the government. They need somebody to surrender to them. And more with the superweapon nonsense.

[CrateriaA]

The Orion ship moving far too fast for the E-nil to hit with phasers.

k, I need to rewatch TOS.

* snip *

The rest of these are either explained or false. They did hit the Borg ship every time, and nailed that tiny emmiter on I believe shot four, which was three or four seconds into it. The tractor beam messing up targetting is an established fact too - I don't think it was in that episode, but it did come up in DS9.

The Mutara nebula meant they were firing almost completely blind. (and isn't TOS nor TNG)


And Generations never happened. Captain Picard's last on screen act was sitting down for the poker game.

1. A simple tractor beam totally messes up the targeting of the ED. Pathetic.
2.A mere nebula means they're firing totally blind. Worthless piece of garbage. (It's the TOS movie. So TOS in my book, Nitpicker. But regardless whether or not it's TOS, the other ships around the time will be like this.)
3. Thank god Generations never happened.
4. The Borg Cube couldn't see the ED when it was in the nebula, so they had to use basically depth charges. There's another fail.

Who cares? The fact that the Odysey exploded due to being hit shows how poorly made the Fed ships are. One big hit to the warp engines (those big honkin twinkies) and it's all over.

Not true. The nacelles are hit on several occassions and it's not a big deal.

Cause and Effect ripped them right open but only succeeded because the shields were down and the engines weren't working. Good luck duplicating that in battle.

The Jem'Hadar example came after a fairly long battle and the ship was just about to go. It wasn't a glancing hit either, it was a direct fucking smash that wrecked the whole front ot the ship.


Besides, don't even get me started on achilles heels on Star Wars ships. Thermal exhaust ports.... A-wings.... "now THIS is pod racing!"..

My god. [/quote]

A single burst seismic charge is stronger than the full payload of ED. A turbolaser is stronger than the full payload. There's no way the Imps can't destroy the fed ships.

1. Thermal exhaust ports- good luck getting a bigass Trek torpedo down there.
2. Death Star II destroyed Executor. Not A-Wings. Their shields were already down BTW.
3. I don't know what you mean by the podracing thing.

I don't think anybody ever fired photons at a fed ship. But how about plasma torpedoes? Or the Borg energy draining weapon? (couldn't they have stopped it with photons?)

Who knows.

It still won't damage Imperial ships.

Bullshit. Curtis Saxton on theforce.net estimated the whole shield capacity of star destroyers in ESB to be less than the energy yield of a single photorp.

Even if we take the ICS number for shielding, it's still less than the power output of a photon torpedo![/quote]

Proof needed. I'm not an expert in these parts, but I doubt you're too hot in this area either.

[CrateriaA]

Dude, fix your quotes!

I'm still getting used to this stuff. It just fucks up on me and by the time I've gotten around to fixing it several replies have already been put out.

EDIT: The option to do that has already vanished. Damn.

[Batman]

Especially as apparently overloading the Constellation's impulse drive (with a yield of some 97 megatons) was obviously more than the E-Nil's entire photon torpedo complement could provide.

Illogical. This might be more than one photon torpedo can do, but it's absurd to jump that to the entire thing.
How would they get all of them to blow up at once? Fratricide may make it impossible to overpower the machine's instantaneous capability.

Yeah, that makes sense. When photon torpedoes are designed to go kabloeiee- when a fusion reactor's natural reaction to messing with the reaction is to shut down-mostly harmlessly.
Besides, if photorps were even as powerful as the TNG TM never actually claims, half a dozen of them should have done the job. Heck if you're worried about the Domsday Weapon recognizing them as hostile projectiles send the warheads in on a shuttle on autopilot.

[Batman]

And if the Federation's oh so powerful shields are that resilient, why did a measly 400GW particle beam bring down those of the very Federation Flagship

That never happened. Worf said "equivalent firepower", meaning it is adjusted to be equal to something else - presumably, the Enterprise's phasers.

It most certainly did, and as has been noted before, nobody ever called him on it. So yes, that seems to be the limit of the TNG Big E's shields where particle beams are concerned.

[Batman]

You're not seriously arguing this.

[Cesario]

If only ST ships had the survivability of SW fighters, hey might be able to exploit whatever SW fighters do?

Ignoring the fact that it's impossible to have lower survivability than a TIE fighter.

That's what it's called when you hyperspace away in order to stop being harassed.

Harassed? How would they be harassed? More like laugh at the pathetic attempts to hurt the Imperial fleet.

It stops being funny when you remember you need to open holes in those shields for your landing craft to exit through.

Their shields could likely hold up to a Wolf 359-size fleet, if not more. So what if they can jump in and out making attacks? Will it damage the Empire? No it won't.

Shields are always up in Wars-world, are they? That seems fairly inefficient to me.

I like how you ignore the fact that the Wars ship don't have to keep the shields up. Their hull will do just fine.

Hulls have this interesting property that you might have heard of. It doesn't regenerate with the introduction of additional energy like force fields do. Any damage whatsoever, even scratch damage, builds up over time. Besides which, their hulls are vulnerable to incidental asteroid impacts. If nothing else, the federation can tow some asteroids at them for them to impact.

Never mind the Empire can do the same due to Hyperdrive being much faster than even transwarp.

They have that level of precision and fine control, do they? Why do they need to make five minutes of calculations to just get the hell out of dodge, then? Why not just make a jump short enough that you're guarenteed not to hit anything?

Maybe the Star Wars galaxy is much more cluttered than the Star Trek one? Maybe the Imperial ships could do the same thing so it would be pointless?

Maybe the Star Wars galaxy is so tightly packed that hyperdrive is actually slower than Warp drive, but they've got a very small, concentrated galaxy. Would certainly explain why Solo had his pick of ports when his hyperdrive gave out in Empire Strikes Back, instead of adopting an "any port in a storm" mentality and started limping the several years to the nearest star system period.

All they have to do is spam probe droids into the ST Galaxy and discover routes for them to take.

Because Probe droids have no limits.

We're assuming they start in the Alpha Quadrant, no? They're bound to find the Powers' planets soon regardless of how many Probe Droids they have.

You do realize how big a quadrant is, right? I'll give you a hint, there are four of them in a galaxy.

Now, you've started in the right quarter of the Galaxy, how does this make you any less of a no-limits douche pretending probe droids answer everything when all you've done is cut the size you have to map by a quarter?

Then they maneuver to the Alpha Quadrant powers' planets and bombard them into submission and then run away before anybody gets their ships there.

Run away. And you had some problem with my characterization of this tactic why?

I'm still kind of curious, if the discrepency is half as severe as you're claiming, why they'd engage in the sort of overkill they never used in their own galaxy, mind you.

1. Come to think of it, they won't need to run away from the pathetic Trek fleets anyway.

Nice to see you're starting to think about the implications of your own arguments finally.

What they'll be doing here is a show of force- showing the Feds or whoever that they are not only immune to their fleets but they can move from one system to another rapidly and destroy much of what's there. It'll cow the AQ into submission.

Why target the Federation, in that case? Why not go after one of the larger powers like the Borg or Dominion? Everyone in the AQ would be plenty impressed by that. A lot more so than a mysterious, faceless force mysteriously disapearing Federation worlds mysteriously.

Keep in mind that if you never bother to tell people what you're doing, they won't get any more than "mysterious" out of the deal. Even the Borg knew that much.

2. The Empire already controls most of the galaxy. Besides, in the major confrontations with the rebels, the rebs can often have strategies or tech that allows them to evade the Empire. If not, then they're destroyed.

Good thing strategies and tech are something the federation has in abundance. Link up with the Rebel Alliance, and you'll soon see Rebel fleets with their own Suncrusher torpedoes.

It isn't the Federation itself the Empire generally needs to worry about. It's the threat that Federation technology will get into the hands of the unbelievably massive terrorist organization operating within its own borders.

Besides, it's likely a fair amount of the fleet is making sure people on various planets don't rebel, especially after Alderaan. If they throw the whole of their starfleet at the rebels entire planets will not stay under the Empire's control for long.

Indeed, which is why I'm very interested in this overkill strategy of yours. The Empire doesn't have control of its own systems even with its entire starfleet at home, so what will taking ships away from that to fight a war in another Galaxy do to their stability?

Starfleet has the advantage of being from an actually stable government, and thus capable of waging war outside its own borders.

After a while the AQ Power's forces are spread all over the place trying to engage the Imp fleet while the Imps keep bombarding planets and destroying Starbases.

Like I said, battles happen in orbit of planets valuable to one power or the other if it isn't at a location of the Federation's choosing.

And this means... what?

That I already covered the fact that Starfleet would need to defend planets (barring exotic defense methods like I suggest in the other thread).

Then the AQ power's ships can't be as easily repaired or refueled.

Have you seen Voyager? Starfleet ships are damn self-sufficient. They don't need to go back to a home starbase to deal with repairs and refits. Congradulations on (somehow) blowing up all the federation worlds. Now you have an untouched Starfleet on its way to avenge itself on your worlds, with a lot more captains willing to use a doomsday device or two that your side is equally incapable of defending against.

Really? They'd be that stupid as to keep fighting?

YES!

Have you seen Deep Space Nine? They were fighting an evil empire with a vastly greater industrial capacity and a tech advantage, and they were mathematically predicted to have no chance of winning. They still kept fighting.

These aren't normal humans. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you'll understand Star Trek.

Starfleet won't be untouched for long. There won't be much left if they come into combat.

That's what we've been covering since I arrived in the thread. How ship-to-ship combat works when the federation ships aren't defending a fixed installation. The Empire's only chance is to run away. Fortunately for the Imperials, their hyperdrives make them very good at running away.

And don't give me the BS about some Doomsday Device being enough against the Empire.

I presume even Darth Wanketine needs there to be a universe to live in, and a past to get him to that point. Trigger another anti-time eruption, and there's nothing left. Bonus, if the two universes really are different universes rather than being separated by vast distances, the Federation can set one of these off in the Wars galaxy and come home to their own with the entire Star Wars universe errased from time, and thus no threat.

And even better, the Federation has the technology to determine whether or not they are dealing with another universe, so they'll know when this is and isn't a viable strategy. (It's good to be the only side who can divine the actual rules of the versus from in-universe.)

Seeing what the Empire can do, the other AQ powers either surrender out of fear of their empires being crushed as easily or stay the hell away or gang up on the AQ power being depleted before their eyes.

Why would they gang up on the power that was wiped out fifteen minutes ago from their prospective again? How does that make tactical sense to them?

Wiped out as a meaningful threat. They go into the power's planets and claim them for themselves, preferably after notifying the Empire that there won't be any hostilities towards the Imperial fleet. Don't want to get stomped like a bug after all.

Why would they claim burnt-out craters that will take a genesis device or decades of terraforming to make habitable. Remember, you're doing your overkill bombardments to make a point. And since you can't touch the fleets, you can only vent your impotent rage on those planets, making them even less appealing for the neighboring powers.

HAHAHAHAHA. Good luck trying to study a ship that's bouncing around the whole quadrant.

Study it? A handful of sensor readings can give us ballpark estimates and the rest gets covered when we experiment in the next "battle".

Yeah, the next battle in which the Imp ship comes out unscathed while the fleet is in ruins? Only one lesson to learn from that: give up or die.

You really haven't been paying attention the last couple of pages. The Imp fleet can't touch a ship that's constantly buzzing them, coming out of FTL just long enough to take a potshot at them with their latest attempt at penetrating your defenses.

Wars fleets can't FTL spam like that, because they need hyperspace calculations. Trek ships are slow enough that they can FTL all they like short distances, turn around, and pop out of FTL at an arbitrary location of their choice.

Normal transporters, no. (Though I love the fact that their bridge windows are apparently also solid Neuronium, dispite that incident with a starfighter in RotJ.)

Uh maybe the starfighter had materials in it that made it stronger than the windows? Ever cross your mind?

Sure, I'll bite. The Starfighter was made of something stronger than your magic neutronium windows, and they didn't just bounce off one another why?

Subspace transporters don't have those issues. Otherwise they'd have gotten Picard's supposed son to one of those planets seeded with raretanium ore and he'd have been perfectly safe from the Ferengi.

Never saw that. How powerful are these doom devices anyway?

They are noted as being able to transport across a multilightyear distance, ignore every known form of shielding, and the only method that they could come up with to block them was to directly intercept the beam with another subspace transporter.

Since Wars doesn't even have normal transporters, they won't be able to find that defense.

The episode was TNG: Bloodlines.

And how many of those deus ex machinas exotic weapons do the Alpha Quadrant Powers have?

Enough that one of them will work, even if you have to piss off a Captain enough to blow up the Universe out of spite before they get to that point.

Vengeance and powerful weapons don't an effective battle plan make.

Battleplan? You fiat destroyed the federation without warning (due to no-limits probe droids, pretending your ships are invincible, but still being a cowardly bitch running away at the first sign of opposition anyway). What battleplan is needed but to remind you that you attacked a Cold War universe with weapons of mass destruction. There's only one logical result to that.

But if you want a battleplan from me, go over to the "Your in charge of the Federation or Empire" thread. In this thread, I'm positing what the Federation actually would do, rather than what it could potentially do under my leadership.

Seems like they destroy one ship, then they're running low.

Because we all know that the only ship that ever runs into weird shit is the Enterprise, right?

I'm talking about the doomsday devices. The fact that you're using them as your only resort to the overwhelming strength of the Empire proves that Trek has lost.

No, I'm using them as the logical result of you blowing up everything these ship captains ever cared about. When a man's got nothing left to lose, launching the nukes and letting the chips fall where they may becomes a lot more appealing. Nice job breaking it, hero.

You fiat destroy the entire federation, and you wonder why my response assumes that Trek has lost? This is what happens when Trek has lost. You remember that this entire universe is a Cold War analogue.

Here's a song lyric which you didn't apparently think of:

Bounce a graviton particle beam off the main deflector dish. That's the way we do things, lad, we're making shit up as we wish.

I didn't think of it? I practically referenced it with my note on Chief Engineers.

Whatever. My bad. But Trek will still lose in the end.

Everyone loses when you start throwing around Wars tactics in the Trek galaxy. Were you not fiat immune to the wrath of the omnipotents, that sort of behavior will net you the same fate as the Husnok.

What might this be? Asteroids? (didn't destroy the ISD)

Which brings to mind an interesting side-note. Pathetic navigation systems. The odds of successfully navigating an asteroid field in Wars, approximately 3720:1.

In Trek, you have to litter them with mines from ancient wars, exotic spatial phenomenon and Romulan Warbirds just to make things interesting. And they still get through that with way better than those odds.

That asteroid field was huge and dense, didn't you see it? Since when has a Trek fleet had to make its way through one like that?

Every episode Trek has to go through an asteroid field. Visually, they're pretty much all the same, since no sci-fi ever depicts realistic ones that no one would ever have trouble successfully navigating.

A-Wing going through the Executor bridge? (still not destroyed, crashing into the DSII did that) What are you talking about?

Why do they have fighters (which even the main site agrees are weaker than Trek firepower) if they can't harm the other capital ships? (Except for the fact that they have been show to harm other capital ships with fighters, which the main site admits are weaker than Trek ships.)

I dunno. But from a tactical view, maybe fighters are using armaments so powerful that they can rival capital ships.

We have the weapons breakdown of the armaments the fighters are using up on the main site. That's the basis on which we're calling them weaker than Trek ships.

The AQ Powers aren't said to control much. It shouldn't take long to scope out a lot of the AQ territory. Besides, they don't need to search and destroy that much anyway. Destroy a major planet's infrastructure and the Power is going to be having serious talks about if they should continue resisting. In this case, resistance is futile.

If you're destroying things that quickly, no one will have time to contemplate surrender. You won't give them the option. So instead, the surviving fleet develops certain extremist tendencies that should really worry you when you contemplate the sorts of superweapons the average Starfleet Captain has access to.

Did you even read that? I said destroy a major planet or more, not totally wipe out the government. They need somebody to surrender to them. And more with the superweapon nonsense.

I'm telling you the result if you somehow avoid becoming the next Husnok when you decide to go for terrorist-style tactics against a power like the Federation. Arms control treaties are a big deal in Trek for a reason. Neither side wants anyone deploying superweapons.

If you don't wipe out the government, if you give them time to think, you're playing into their hands. Once again, Chief Engineer is told the time limit the Imperials gave for surrender. "That's how long you have to come up with a defense Mr. LaForge!"

But seriously, either you're doing the utterly stupid overkill, or you're going to engage in a sane versus that we can actually have a conversation about. If you go stupid overkill, then why shouldn't a random starfleet Captain decide he wants to wipe out the entire universe, past, present, and future, out of spite? He's got nothing left to loose.

If you give him something to loose, then he can instead hand over weapons and technology to the Rebellion, who can and will fuck up the Empire's internal stability with the influx of new terrorist weapons, making it that much harder to justify keeping an Imperial fleet in the Trek part of the universe.

If you prosecute it as a sane versus, where both powers have to actually feel eachother out and one side doesn't magically know everything about the other in order to steamroll them in five seconds in the most boring and wanked way possible, then we can have an actual conversation. Until then, however, there's little point responding to you with anything other than the many, many ways your plan gets your entire universe fucked over.

[CrateriaA]

In TNG they seem to have fixed this - torpedo spreads are timed to go together. But, the TOS ones might not have had that kind of precision detonators.

Agreed, I think. "Sierra" has the torpedoes go out in a cluster to attack the lead Klingon ship, while the TOS ships seem to fire one torpedo at a time. This isn't contracted by In A Mirror Darkly, which shows the Defiant shooting off torpedoes one by one or by the movies.

[Batman]

It most certainly did, and as has been noted before, nobody ever called him on it. So yes, that seems to be the limit of the TNG Big E's shields where particle beams are concerned.

Why would they call him on it? Normalizing against their output is probably standard procedure, and he said exactly what he meant: "equivalent firepower". It'd be a lot easier for Riker and Picard to make a decision if they get the bottom line on how much it is going to hurt than if they have to do mental arithmetic and recall all kinds of obscure facts to figure it out.

I'm getting tired of this. 400GW is 400 GW is 400GW until and unless you provide evidence to the contrary. AGAIN. Until you show they're not talking real world Watts, yes, that's what that means.