Congratulations, you buried the needle in my sarcasm detector.
As for sales taxes being regressive, yes, of course they are. A sane sales tax, though, would be one like Canada has: many essentials are exempted from it. I pay no sales tax on most foods, for example, though most processed or prepared foods are taxed. Prescription drugs and municipal transit are also not taxed. Clothes for small children are also exempt from provincial taxes. Some lower income individuals and families will get more of a sales tax refund (at tax time) than they'll spend at the cash register.
The point is that sales taxes can be done well. The purpose is to get some revenue from those who spend money on stuff they don't really need, and can afford to drop a couple of extra percent when they do. Of course, for some industries that will hurt them, since these taxes create a disincentive to purchase their products. If I were to buy a new car tomorrow, I would have to pay 13% sales tax on top of whatever is on the sticker (plus other fees), but since I also need roads to drive that car on, and that money has to come from somewhere, it makes some sense to take that bite from someone like me, rather than the guy who has to choose between paying the rent and buying food.
73% of all statistics are made up, including this one.
Alphawolf55 wrote:
I never got Americans opposition to a national sales tax, Europe which I think we can agree is for the most part has more progressive economies yet has a value added tax which is basically a sales tax.
Personally I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to get rid of the bottom bracket for income tax and replace it with a sales tax while increasing aid to the poor.
Actually Alyeska is completely right.Sales taxes are usually regressive: a less affluent person will be hurt more by a global tax, because they will spend much more of their income on short-term consumption.
That's why some (though by no means many) European countries vary the rates, reducing sales tax on certain goods. Poland, for example,has a 23% sales tax on most goods, but also two lower rates, 5% and 8% on some products (mostly food, books,etc.)
I never said sales tax weren't regressive, but there are ways to get around the regressive part by either making essentials exempt for example, increasing aid to the poorest so they end up getting back whatever they paid into it, or cutting the bottom income bracket so that for the poor their sales tax contribution count is equal to what their income tax contribution would.
My comment is that Americans seem to think that a sales tax is always a bad idea and that there is no way to design a good one.
In the American political milieu, it would be much more difficult to introduce a new sales tax and increase welfare payouts to compensate than it would be not to charge the tax in the first place and not need to increase the payouts in the first place.
Also, real American sales taxes (levied at the state level routinely) don't exempt essential goods; a federal sales tax would likely be put together along the same lines, at least by the people who'd want to enact it in the first place.
Some states do exempt certain goods, if I recall rightly. Maryland is straight 6%, but if I remember, Ohio is 8% excepting food. TimothyC could probably correct me if I got that wrong.
Simon_Jester wrote:In the American political milieu, it would be much more difficult to introduce a new sales tax and increase welfare payouts to compensate than it would be not to charge the tax in the first place and not need to increase the payouts in the first place.
Also, real American sales taxes (levied at the state level routinely) don't exempt essential goods; a federal sales tax would likely be put together along the same lines, at least by the people who'd want to enact it in the first place.
Hence why I said you could also knock off the bottom bracket. If the first 10-20,000 is taxed at 10%, then an 11% sales tax would have around the same effect tax wise (assuming someone spends 100% of their money retail which almost no one does), now there are things like the earned income tax credit and child care tax credit that makes it so poor families right now have to pay income tax, but that's a different matter then whether the tax is regressive.
Plus NYC I know for a fact doesn't tax food and clothing under a certain amount.
Oh, it's possible. I just doubt that the sort of people who want to replace income taxes with sales taxes in the US would actually bother to do it.
You can base your tax system on almost anything and have it work if you're committed to having a just tax system. If you're just trying to minimize the tax burden on Designated Good Guys at everyone else's expense, then no tax system will work all that well... which is why I get nervous around Republicans who want to drastically change the tax system.
Vejut wrote:Some states do exempt certain goods, if I recall rightly. Maryland is straight 6%, but if I remember, Ohio is 8% excepting food. TimothyC could probably correct me if I got that wrong.
You would mention my name in a discussion about Ohio tax rates
Ohio State Sales tax is a flat 5.5% with additional taxes being levied by counties and regional transit authorities.
The following are the core exemptions:
Copyrighted motion picture films for exhibition purposes unless solely used for advertising.
Food for human consumption off the premises where sold (food does not include alcoholic beverages, dietary supplements, soft drinks, or tobacco).
Food sold to students in a dormitory, school cafeteria, fraternity or sorority house.
Items purchased with food stamps.
Newspapers (including community newspapers and national newspapers, such as the Wall Street Journal, USA Today, and other unbound publications.).
Magazine subscriptions.
Items sold to Governments.
Items sold to Non-profits and Churches.
The purchase of durable medical equipment for home use, or mobility enhancing equipment, when made pursuant to a prescription and when such devices or equipment are for use by a human being.
Utilities (Gas, Water, Electricity, and Steam).
Casual sales except sales of motor vehicles, boats and outboard motors that are required to be titled, snowmobiles, documented boats, all-purpose vehicles, off-highway motorcycles and personal watercraft.
Unless you plan on leaving the State and titling the vehicle elsewhere, then it's exempt again
It's ugly, it's complicated, and I don't know of anyone who likes to deal with it.
They also define food as
“Food” means substances, whether in liquid, concentrated, solid, frozen, dried, or dehydrated form, that are sold for ingestion or chewing by humans and are consumed for their taste or nutritional value. "Food" does not include alcoholic beverages, dietary supplements, soft drinks, or tobacco.
Example:
Gum is food.
<50% Juice by volume isn't.
It's a soft drink.
Unless it has milk or milk substitute in it, then it becomes food again.
"I believe in the future. It is wonderful because it stands on what has been achieved." - Sergei Korolev
Edi wrote:The only Republican candidate who seems to have his head screwed on straight is Buddy Roemer. Who hasn't exactly been invited to any debates or been given exposure in the mainstream press because he has a quite radically different position that the other Republicans.
The man will never be elected to any office again. That was my first thought when he said that he's against corporate campaign donations on his Daily Show interview. Shame too, as he is the most reasonable GOP candidate I've yet seen. Not particularly sure what all his policy stances are, but his stances on campaign finance automatically give him some points in the Like column. That should say something as I and my family have pretty much been life-long Democrats, and I personally would say I fall more toward the left than most Americans (most likely centrist by European standards).
At this point the country's best hope for any kind of reform seems to be related to how Colbert's edutainment segments about Colbert Super PAC seem to go. That in itself is so depressing it's not funny. When the only sane coverage of politics comes from the court jester(s) you know you have problems.
First Posted: 10/13/11 12:52 PM ET Updated: 10/13/11 11:35 PM ET
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WASHINGTON -- In Herman Cain's America, the tax code would be very, very simple: The corporate income tax rate would be 9 percent, the personal income tax rate would be 9 percent and the national sales tax rate would be 9 percent.
But there's already a 999 plan out there, in a land called SimCity.
Long before Cain was running for president and getting attention for his 999 plan, the residents of SimCity 4 -- which was released in 2003 -- were living under a system where the default tax rate was 9 percent for commercial taxes, 9 percent for industrial taxes and 9 percent for residential taxes. (That is, of course, if you didn't use the cheat codes to get unlimited money and avoid taxes altogether.)
A screenshot from the game's default settings:
There has been all sorts of speculation about where Cain came up with the idea for his catchy plan -- Unnamed economic advisers? A clever marketing promotion pulled from the pizza industry? -- but beyond a few hardcore gamers in the comments sections of blogs, few have looked to SimCity, the land where there's a "God mode."
Kip Katsarelis, a senior producer for Maxis, the company that created the SimCity series, was excited that politicians may be looking to video games for ideas.
"We encourage politicians to continue to look to innovative games like SimCity for inspiration for social and economic change," said Katsarelis. "While we at Maxis and Electronic Arts do not endorse any political candidates or their platforms, it's interesting to see GOP candidate Herman Cain propose a simplified tax system like one we designed for the video game SimCity 4."
Adopting such a simple tax structure, Katsarelis said, would allow fantasy political leaders to focus their energy on infrastructure and national security. "Our game design team thought that an easy to understand taxation system would allow players to focus on building their cities and have fun thwarting giant lizard attacks, rather than be buried by overly complex financial systems."
When asked about similarities between Cain's plan and SimCity's default tax rates, Cain campaign spokesman JD Gordon replied, "Well, we all like 9-9-9."
Rich Lowrie, the Ohio Wells Fargo employee who is the brains behind Cain's plan, did not return a request for comment regarding whether he is a fan of SimCity and looked to the game for inspiration.
A receptionist at Lowrie's Wells Fargo office said she doubted his idea came from SimCity. "Probably not," she told The Huffington Post. "I don't think he's much of a game person."
Presumably, under the Cain plan, disasters would be turned off.
9-9-9 would become 30-30-30 soon enough. Piss on Herman Cain. I would no more trust that son-of-a-bitch than I would Alan Greenspan. Given Cain's connection with The Federal Reserve and the fact he talked up how great Alan Greenspan was as a Fed Chairman, anyone with half-a-fucking brain cell intact would put Cain in the 'Not a fucking chance' category. He's the same empty suit as Romney and Perry. He may be more intelligent than Bachmann, but he's just as much of a snake.
"Democracy, too, is a religion. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses." - H.L. Mencken
“An atheist, who is a statist, is just another theist.” – Stefan Molyneux
"If men are good, you don't need government; if men are evil or ambivalent, you don't dare have one." - Robert LeFevre
BrooklynRedLeg wrote:I would no more trust that son-of-a-bitch than I would Alan Greenspan. Given Cain's connection with The Federal Reserve and the fact he talked up how great Alan Greenspan was as a Fed Chairman, anyone with half-a-fucking brain cell intact would put Cain in the 'Not a fucking chance' category.
I hope your mistrust of the Fed is based on something tangible rather than a common right-wing hysteria about the fed selling MURRICA out to DEM FOREIGN BANKERS WHO STEAL ALL OUR WEALTH.
"Who knew the Dark Side of the Force was so anti-free market?"
"He's gonna pull a Will Smith and flip-turn America upside down!!!"-Me on Herman Cain's 999 Tax Plan
I'LL GET OVER IT, I'LL GET OVER IT
I had to listen to my Politics professor yesterday tell the class that the reason why we have deficits is because of all the lending the Federal Reserve is doing and it's all tricks to raise our taxes and tuitions. I wanted to explain that our debts don't include what the Federal Reserve lends out other then treasury notes but...it was just painful.
CrateriaA wrote:I hope your mistrust of the Fed is based on something tangible rather than a common right-wing hysteria about the fed selling MURRICA out to DEM FOREIGN BANKERS WHO STEAL ALL OUR WEALTH.
Never said a goddamn thing about our wealth being stolen by foreigners, so take that shit and cram it. The Federal Reserve is directly responsible, via fractional reserve banking, for the inflation we're suffering under now. Alan Greenspan's artificial distortion of the interest rates is what caused the Housing Bubble. So yes, my mistrust is based on something tangible.
"Democracy, too, is a religion. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses." - H.L. Mencken
“An atheist, who is a statist, is just another theist.” – Stefan Molyneux
"If men are good, you don't need government; if men are evil or ambivalent, you don't dare have one." - Robert LeFevre
CrateriaA wrote:I hope your mistrust of the Fed is based on something tangible rather than a common right-wing hysteria about the fed selling MURRICA out to DEM FOREIGN BANKERS WHO STEAL ALL OUR WEALTH.
Never said a goddamn thing about our wealth being stolen by foreigners, so take that shit and cram it. The Federal Reserve is directly responsible, via fractional reserve banking, for the inflation we're suffering under now. Alan Greenspan's artificial distortion of the interest rates is what caused the Housing Bubble. So yes, my mistrust is based on something tangible.
Screw you. I needed to clear shit up about if you believed the theories about the Fed. Blaming the Fed is a common crazy rightist belief. I take it you don't even know about the conspiracy theories about the Fed no? That shit is easily flourishing around crazy rightist circles like yours. Consider yourself lucky your types haven't fallen for shit like that. Unfortunately, you're still an idiot.
"Who knew the Dark Side of the Force was so anti-free market?"
"He's gonna pull a Will Smith and flip-turn America upside down!!!"-Me on Herman Cain's 999 Tax Plan
I'LL GET OVER IT, I'LL GET OVER IT
Simon_Jester wrote:In the American political milieu, it would be much more difficult to introduce a new sales tax and increase welfare payouts to compensate than it would be not to charge the tax in the first place and not need to increase the payouts in the first place.
Also, real American sales taxes (levied at the state level routinely) don't exempt essential goods; a federal sales tax would likely be put together along the same lines, at least by the people who'd want to enact it in the first place.
Indiana exempts food and newspapers from the sales tax. I don't know if there are other exemptions; food's the big one in any case if so.
CrateriaA wrote:I hope your mistrust of the Fed is based on something tangible rather than a common right-wing hysteria about the fed selling MURRICA out to DEM FOREIGN BANKERS WHO STEAL ALL OUR WEALTH.
Never said a goddamn thing about our wealth being stolen by foreigners, so take that shit and cram it. The Federal Reserve is directly responsible, via fractional reserve banking, for the inflation we're suffering under now. Alan Greenspan's artificial distortion of the interest rates is what caused the Housing Bubble. So yes, my mistrust is based on something tangible.
Screw you. I needed to clear shit up about if you believed the theories about the Fed. Blaming the Fed is a common crazy rightist belief. I take it you don't even know about the conspiracy theories about the Fed no? That shit is easily flourishing around crazy rightist circles like yours. Consider yourself lucky your types haven't fallen for shit like that. Unfortunately, you're still an idiot.
Leftists do it too. There's conspiracy theories about how the Fed was created to allow the Rockafellers and Morgans to control the US, that come from the left.
CrateriaA wrote:
Screw you. I needed to clear shit up about if you believed the theories about the Fed. Blaming the Fed is a common crazy rightist belief. I take it you don't even know about the conspiracy theories about the Fed no? That shit is easily flourishing around crazy rightist circles like yours. Consider yourself lucky your types haven't fallen for shit like that. Unfortunately, you're still an idiot.
Leftists do it too. There's conspiracy theories about how the Fed was created to allow the Rockafellers and Morgans to control the US, that come from the left.
Too bad that I don't believe in them.
"Who knew the Dark Side of the Force was so anti-free market?"
"He's gonna pull a Will Smith and flip-turn America upside down!!!"-Me on Herman Cain's 999 Tax Plan
I'LL GET OVER IT, I'LL GET OVER IT
Perhaps you haven't noticed prices have spiked on basic things like food and energy?
Inflation of the dollar being worth less globally, inflation of prices, you gotta be specific.
Well, the fact it is worth less globally translates into commodities prices being up, which hurts people by making food more expensive (and this is from a myriad of factors all of which have contributed to inflation).
Also the problems of the Housing Bubble were far more then just "Low Interest Rates"
It was the main driver causing the malinvestment.
"Democracy, too, is a religion. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses." - H.L. Mencken
“An atheist, who is a statist, is just another theist.” – Stefan Molyneux
"If men are good, you don't need government; if men are evil or ambivalent, you don't dare have one." - Robert LeFevre
Perhaps you haven't noticed prices have spiked on basic things like food and energy?
Energy is going up because the economy is doing slightly better now. Notice, oil is still less then it was pre-crash and once the crash happened the price of oil dropping came soon after, as the economy started to slowly rebound so did the price of oil. It's less inflation and more oil cartels realizing that before high oil prices might've sent us to a depression and seeing the economy more stabilized now.
As for food, the increase cost of energy is what causes food to go up. Transportation and cost of fuel to raise the crops are two of the biggest of food prices at least in the US. So when oil and other energy goes up in price, it's only natural for food to go up significantly as well.
It was the main driver causing the malinvestment.
And most of that bad investment and shoddy loan giving wouldn't have happened without the deregulations of the 80's and 90's, so no low interest rates is not the main cause of the recession.
