WH 40K: 5th Edition (Opinions?)

[Thinktank]

I am curious what other members' takes are on 40K's 5th edition.

My Take:
So far, it is not doing so well with me. I think the "Ward Fluff" is poisoning the franchise to the point that I cannot really enjoy this newest iteration of GW's product.

[Whiskey144]

AFAIK, the general 40K'er (not necessary of SDN's resident 40K peeps) opinion is that 5th Edition is the best edition so far, especially as far as the rules go.

My own opinion? Never played the TT game (wish I had/could), so can't say much about that. That said, I think 5th is doing pretty well. Especially considering the fact that it's during 5th that the Dark Eldar and Necrons have gotten/are getting updates- both of which were critically needed considering the sheer age of both previous books (both of the old DE and 'Cron dexes dated back to 3rd edition).

Fluff-wise...........at this point, I'm actually getting a little mad that people think that Matt Ward is killing 40K. Yes, his fluff does leave things to be desired*, but in reference to the actual TT game, Ward's books are all well-balanced.

That being said, I didn't even know of the existence of 40K until 5th Edition had been out for some time (I still can't remember whether or not it was the Ultramarines Omnibus of the demos of the Dawn of War games that got me into 40K- I think it was the Omnibus), so I can't say too much.

*I'm well aware of the supposed travesties of Kaldor Draigo and the sacrifice-of-Sisters GKs. Keep in mind that:

1) Draigo is stuck in the Warp most of the time- that's the home turf of daemons, where they have a *serious* advantage.
2) The whole heart-carving debacle required an elaborate ritual for him to even have a chance at. If the fluff was as bad as some people (or even sites) make it out to be, then it would simply have Draigo walk up to the daemon prince, punch him in the face, and rip his heart out to write a big "IMPERIUM 4 TEH WINZ" on it. For anyone who's actually read that bit, it's quite obviously not the case.
3) Read Ben Counter's novel Hammer of Daemons. See a Grey Knight have his psychic faith-shield be suppressed, and said GK be subsequently possessed by a Tzeentchian daemon. And then de-possess himself, and play off a bunch of Chaos-loving heretic-people against each other. The Wardian fluff bit seems tame in comparison. And, you know, makes sense.

[Thinktank]

I appreciate how you may enjoy the new stuff. But as someone who has been a fan since: 'Rogue Trader', it just doesn't sit well with me on the fluff level. The rules have improved though in my opinion. It may just be a "generation gap" thing going on for me.

[Stark]

Are you going to give any examples or reasons, rather than making a blanket, uninformative statement?

[2000AD]

I prefer the literature of modern 40K, so much so that the Draco trilogy sticks out like a sore thumb in comparison comapred to the modern day fluff, but game wise I'm more old school.

I got into the game when 2nd Ed was released, played it a lot and then when 3rd Ed came out and changed the rules to the more modern incarnation I started tailing off, finished playing with 4th ed and then never even bought 5th ed having transitioned to WFB by that point.

While 3rd ed onwards are quicker to play and more streamlined I do miss the detail of 2nd ed, the rules (IMO) worked just as well for small skirmishes as they did for regular battles, only getting bogged down in large games (3k+ points) where you needed to set aside a serious amount of time to play it out. I really felt like each soldier was able to make a difference in 2nd ed while in 3rd ed onwards it feels like squads are just there to provide bullet shields for the people carrying the flashy stuff.

While I can certainly see that some people will much prefer the streamlined 40K with everyone moving the same distance, not needing an individual damage table for each type of vehicle, half as many stats on each weapon and so on, I still miss the old days where you were allowed to put as many orks as you wanted on a battlewagon for transport provided you can balance them and that if any fell off while moving it they fell off in the game and took damage as well.

I also remember thinking the 'true line of sight' rule intorduced in 5th ed would be a bad idea when I first heard about it and after hearing some horror stories about people modeling entire armies lieing down or trying to use Epic 40K models (under the argument that they're GW models and also of the appropriate type) on 40K bases I feel kinda vindicated. (For the record those are just stories I've heard, never seen 1st hand, so maybe it's just me being too cynical about 40K players in beleiving them)

[Connor MacLeod]

3) Read Ben Counter's novel Hammer of Daemons. See a Grey Knight have his psychic faith-shield be suppressed, and said GK be subsequently possessed by a Tzeentchian daemon. And then de-possess himself, and play off a bunch of Chaos-loving heretic-people against each other. The Wardian fluff bit seems tame in comparison. And, you know, makes sense.

Did you even read the same novel I did? What Alaric did made perfect sense in context of the novel (to fall to Chaos does it require a conscious choice to do so? or are you damned regardless of what you do once Chaos has you?). More to the point, this sort of thing is perfectly in line with existing canon, as per the Illuminati (psykers who get possessed by daemons, then magically get un-possessed. This was actually a subplot of the Inquisition War trilogy.)

[Sharp-kun]

but in reference to the actual TT game, Ward's books are all well-balanced.

While its been a long time since I've played the TT, from what I've heard the new Grey Knights codex is very unbalanced, particuarly Plasma Siphons.

Just what I've heard, but I've heard it a lot.

[Meest]

Sadly I'm now informed on the infamous Matt Ward, is there any positive feedback on this guy?

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I think he does a pretty good job coming up with ideas. His execution leaves a lot to be desired, but the concepts are sound. For example, the concept of a superhero like Draigo, who could slaughter daemon princes left and right, being trapped in the warp affecting nothing, committing acts of epic heroism only to watch them all be undone, is superbly grimdark.

[Whiskey144]

Did you even read the same novel I did? What Alaric did made perfect sense in context of the novel (to fall to Chaos does it require a conscious choice to do so? or are you damned regardless of what you do once Chaos has you?). More to the point, this sort of thing is perfectly in line with existing canon, as per the Illuminati (psykers who get possessed by daemons, then magically get un-possessed. This was actually a subplot of the Inquisition War trilogy.)

I did indeed- I was just bringing it up that the whole debacle over the GKs killing the Sisters as a protective talisman, you know, actually makes sense in reference to previously-published fluff. I've gotten so sick of people saying that Ward writes the worst fluff on the planet (yeah, I admit it's not the best. But it's not absolutely horrible like they say), that in this case I pointed out the fact that a Grey Knight of all people was actually possessed by a daemon.

If people want to say Ward raped the fluff with the new GK book, then the natural response I've started to have is to point out Ben Counter's GK books. Not because Counter is a fluff-rapist (I certainly don't think that), but because if person X thinks that Ward is, then they'll probably start screaming about Counter's stuff too- or they're simply Ward-haters.

I also remember thinking the 'true line of sight' rule intorduced in 5th ed would be a bad idea when I first heard about it and after hearing some horror stories about people modeling entire armies lieing down or trying to use Epic 40K models (under the argument that they're GW models and also of the appropriate type) on 40K bases I feel kinda vindicated. (For the record those are just stories I've heard, never seen 1st hand, so maybe it's just me being too cynical about 40K players in beleiving them)

Well, the thing about people who do that is that TLoS is a double-edged sword if you try to abuse it like that. Say I kitbash a Leman Russ to look more like a WWII Panzer tank (I actually would like to do this someday, because it would look AWESOME), and it ends up with a lower profile than the normal GW Russ.

Yes, it now claims cover more easily, and it can be difficult to draw TLoS to it depending on position- but the notable part is that my (sadly hypothetical) Panzer-ized Russ will similarly have difficulty drawing TLoS to enemies, depending on position. A normal sized GW Russ would be more easily set up behind a high berm, or even used to provide cover to some of those METUHL BAWKSES called Chimeras, while said Panzer-Russ would have difficulty doing so. Aforementioned high berm may be so tall, so as to provide adequate cover to a GW-Russ, that my Panzer-Russ would be totally obscured, and thus incapable of shooting things!

While its been a long time since I've played the TT, from what I've heard the new Grey Knights codex is very unbalanced, particuarly Plasma Siphons.

Just what I've heard, but I've heard it a lot.

Plasma Syphons (it's actually spelled with a 'y' in the 'dex.....I don't really know what the reason is) are argued as unbalanced because of the sheer number of weapons they affect- and, most notably, that they affect nigh-upon 90% of the Tau armory.

The problem is that it's got a 12" range. Granted, it's a radius. But it's still 12". The Tau have a great deal of weapons that can easily kill even a power-armored Inquisitor (the Ordo Xenos dude is the only one who can get plasma syphons, and he can't take Terminator armor like the Malleus dude), from 18"+.

A lot of people will also argue that having an entire army of dudes armed with force weapons and stormbolters is unbalanced. However, I contend that it isn't, considering that a GK costs more than a normal vanilla Marine. Not by a whole much (16 vanilla Marine vs 20 GK Marine), but the GK still dies just as easily as the normal Marine. He's more expensive, he's a bit killier, but he still dies to all the same things, just as quickly, as a normal Marine.

This is generally the case across the entire army, because upgrades that would make them indirectly more survivable (such as halberds for the +2I) you're usually 'paying through the nose' for. A C:SM Marine squad can get a flamer for 5 points. A GK squad can get one halberd for the same cost, and the GK Marines also cost more than their Codex-adhering brethren.

If you've heard any complaints about Paladins (2 wound Terminators!), who can take an Apothecary (2+/5++/FNP!), then it's good to note that said Apothecary costs about 50% more than a normal Paladin, and also loses his ranged weapon. Paladins themselves cost about 38% more than C:SM Terminators, and you start off with a unit of one dude, to which you add other members. Oh, yeah, and those shiney special dakka options? You gotta have at least five dudes to get them- you do get two shiney dakka options for every five dudes, but you can't just take a single Paladin and slap a psycannon on him.

Sadly I'm now informed on the infamous Matt Ward, is there any positive feedback on this guy?

The general consensus of sensible people who don't hate Matt Ward for being Matt Ward is that his rules are good and balanced, but his fluff leaves a bit to be desired.

[Ryan Thunder]

but in reference to the actual TT game, Ward's books are all well-balanced.

No, not really. They're hideously unbalanced. The only one that seemed to be balanced at all was the Space Marine codex (which I'll be the first to acknowledge is a little ironic given all the gushing over Marines that everybody accuses him of, which I have no comment on.) He has a tendency to attach special rules to units for no better reason than the fact that they don't have special rules. (First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire, for instance. Because nobody but the Imperial Guard can arrange themselves into a line formation and fire on full auto. No, sir, nobody whatsoever.) He created the Vendetta gunship instead of introducing the Vulture (which wouldn't have required him to create anything wholesale in the fluff, and would have been a billion times cooler than duct-taping six lascannons onto a Valkyrie like a toddler and calling it 'balanced.') He created the Dreadknight. He completely nerfed Carnifexes (Carnifices? Whatever,) and then made Gargoyles so inexpensive that there was virtually no reason not to have hordes of them. He made boneswords with a paragraph long special rule explaining that they were force weapons in all but name (but better, because Hive Mind or something) instead of just, y'know, making them force weapons like anybody with any understanding of precedent would do.

He doesn't write codices to be balanced. He writes them with the intent of drawing new players in to play the latest codex, and forcing veterans to buy new models in order to have a viable army. It's a viable business model but it makes for terrible gameplay.

[Connor MacLeod]

I did indeed- I was just bringing it up that the whole debacle over the GKs killing the Sisters as a protective talisman, you know, actually makes sense in reference to previously-published fluff. I've gotten so sick of people saying that Ward writes the worst fluff on the planet (yeah, I admit it's not the best. But it's not absolutely horrible like they say), that in this case I pointed out the fact that a Grey Knight of all people was actually possessed by a daemon.

If people want to say Ward raped the fluff with the new GK book, then the natural response I've started to have is to point out Ben Counter's GK books. Not because Counter is a fluff-rapist (I certainly don't think that), but because if person X thinks that Ward is, then they'll probably start screaming about Counter's stuff too- or they're simply Ward-haters.

Counter is far from the best author, and has inflicted plenty of errrors of his own in "canon" (if a universe as messed up as 40K can be said to have "errors") but I found problems with the way Ward portrayed the Grey Knights. I dont mind the idea that they might use a form of sorcery or "magic" - that's what the wapr is and you can have powers bestowed upon you by the Emperor (Even SoB are sorcerers or psykers of some kind) - but the fact is that the Imperium draws rather fine distinctions (hypocrticial though they may be) between what sorcerers are and aren't - and grey knights aren't sorcerers. Ward, for whatever reason, makes liberal reference to "magic" and "sorcery" in the fluff, and the context in which he presents stuff only reinforces that. I can believe he may have intended something else, but that is not the way it comes across, as Bob points out.

Moreover, in context to Hammer of Daemons, what happened with Alaric was a rare, unusual feat, and something GK should not be capable of doing routinely. Yet apparently GK can routinely use daemonic weapons, sorcery, etc. without ill effects simply because they are grey knights. That represents a rather dramatic shift in how they have been portrayed - it would be like the IG suddenly adopting Tau doctrine 100% across the board.

I actually suspect most of the dislike of Ward (And other authors) stems from the way they write up the game mechanics more than anything. At least some of it is bound to be fanboyism of one faction over another getting 'nerfed' -that seems endemic to 40K with each codex and a result of how slowly they put out new codexes (you maybe get SOME codexes updated with each edition, unless you're Space Marines then you're usually guaranteed an update.) but I gather Ward has a gift for fucking up game mechanics even more. Fluff wrecking is really only a sidelines.

[Black Admiral]

Did you even read the same novel I did? What Alaric did made perfect sense in context of the novel (to fall to Chaos does it require a conscious choice to do so? or are you damned regardless of what you do once Chaos has you?). More to the point, this sort of thing is perfectly in line with existing canon, as per the Illuminati (psykers who get possessed by daemons, then magically get un-possessed. This was actually a subplot of the Inquisition War trilogy.)

I did indeed- I was just bringing it up that the whole debacle over the GKs killing the Sisters as a protective talisman, you know, actually makes sense in reference to previously-published fluff. I've gotten so sick of people saying that Ward writes the worst fluff on the planet (yeah, I admit it's not the best. But it's not absolutely horrible like they say), that in this case I pointed out the fact that a Grey Knight of all people was actually possessed by a daemon.

If people want to say Ward raped the fluff with the new GK book, then the natural response I've started to have is to point out Ben Counter's GK books. Not because Counter is a fluff-rapist (I certainly don't think that), but because if person X thinks that Ward is, then they'll probably start screaming about Counter's stuff too- or they're simply Ward-haters.

I've called Ben Counter worse - if I recall correctly I have actually accused him of being the worst author the Black Library've got - and my problem with the whole "GKs murdering Sisters" incident (aside from the fact that I feel it is not exactly appropriate for the incorruptible champions of the Emperor's Light to need to resort to Chaos rites to protect themselves against Chaos (suicidal stupidity, that is) - and believe me I have issues with Ben Counter's portrayal of the GKs as well, especially in the short story Sacrifices) is that it is completely unjustified even within the narrative that attempts to justify it.

[Connor MacLeod]

Another way to look at it is that Ward basically made the GK out to be condoning and employing tactics that would normally be employed only by Radicals (Inquisitors, Space Marines like the Relictors, etc.), and yet they are somehow tottally and utterly immune from any ill effects from that. The closest I have ever heard of such people are the Oblationists, and they accept the fact that at some point they will have to be purged for willingly corrupting themselves using evil weapons.

Either way its in canon now and it has to be reconciled, but that doesn't make it any less silly (even by 40K Standards). Ward isnt the first author to do stuff like that (in any sort of source) and it does happen, but that doesn't excuse it either.

[Connor MacLeod]

So far, it is not doing so well with me. I think the "Ward Fluff" is poisoning the franchise to the point that I cannot really enjoy this newest iteration of GW's product.

Ward has introduced some silly concepts but that isnt anything that can't be ignored, explained away or reconciled. It's not the first thing stuff like that has happened before in 40K, or get turned aruond with some subsequent edition. Besides its hardly like it is significant beyond a number of examples - a fair bit of 5th edition is recycled material from earlier fluff (the 5th Edition Space Marine codex does a fair bit of recycling as well.)

But as someone who has been a fan since: 'Rogue Trader', it just doesn't sit well with me on the fluff level. The rules have improved though in my opinion. It may just be a "generation gap" thing going on for me.

I've seen some of the 1st edition stuff and to be honest I don't quite understand the nostalgia. Yes it has a certain charm and it was different, but things change. 2nd edition IMHO was better than first because it took the elements of 1st edition and made it into something more tangible and had a background (although it was already evolving that way, given alot of the earlier material being written -2nd edition just formalized it in the way that has lasted to the current edition.) It was also less on the "SKULLZ AND WAR" aspect, didnt take itself nearly as seriously (silly concepts like Doomrider), and there was always a measure of positive to balance out the negative. But 2nd edition is past so...

5th edition was good in that it provided alot of background expansion and fleshed out some of what encompassed the time between the Heresy and modern times. No, they haven't moved on past the the 13th Black crusade, I doubt they will anytime soon.. but there's plenty of backstory (such as it is) and its nice they're at least willing to acknowledge it. They also took a step in fleshing out some of the scope and scale of things at least from a "numbers monkey" perspective - EG the hive world data, guard recruitmnet, etc.

[2000AD]

Well, the thing about people who do that is that TLoS is a double-edged sword if you try to abuse it like that. Say I kitbash a Leman Russ to look more like a WWII Panzer tank (I actually would like to do this someday, because it would look AWESOME), and it ends up with a lower profile than the normal GW Russ.

Yes, it now claims cover more easily, and it can be difficult to draw TLoS to it depending on position- but the notable part is that my (sadly hypothetical) Panzer-ized Russ will similarly have difficulty drawing TLoS to enemies, depending on position. A normal sized GW Russ would be more easily set up behind a high berm, or even used to provide cover to some of those METUHL BAWKSES called Chimeras, while said Panzer-Russ would have difficulty doing so. Aforementioned high berm may be so tall, so as to provide adequate cover to a GW-Russ, that my Panzer-Russ would be totally obscured, and thus incapable of shooting things!

That assumes the person abusing the rules wants to do some shooting, from what I heard most of them were people with close combat focused armies trying to minimise getting shot at.

[Srelex]

No, not really. They're hideously unbalanced. The only one that seemed to be balanced at all was the Space Marine codex (which I'll be the first to acknowledge is a little ironic given all the gushing over Marines that everybody accuses him of, which I have no comment on.) He has a tendency to attach special rules to units for no better reason than the fact that they don't have special rules. (First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire, for instance. Because nobody but the Imperial Guard can arrange themselves into a line formation and fire on full auto. No, sir, nobody whatsoever.) He created the Vendetta gunship instead of introducing the Vulture (which wouldn't have required him to create anything wholesale in the fluff, and would have been a billion times cooler than duct-taping six lascannons onto a Valkyrie like a toddler and calling it 'balanced.') He created the Dreadknight. He completely nerfed Carnifexes (Carnifices? Whatever,) and then made Gargoyles so inexpensive that there was virtually no reason not to have hordes of them. He made boneswords with a paragraph long special rule explaining that they were force weapons in all but name (but better, because Hive Mind or something) instead of just, y'know, making them force weapons like anybody with any understanding of precedent would do.

He doesn't write codices to be balanced. He writes them with the intent of drawing new players in to play the latest codex, and forcing veterans to buy new models in order to have a viable army. It's a viable business model but it makes for terrible gameplay.

Er...with the exception of Space Marines and the Dreadknight, none of those are from Matt Ward.

[Connor MacLeod]

I gather there was plenty of game mechanics related ire thrown at all the codex authors in 5th edition, Ward simply was targeted because he was the most prolific and most visible.

To be honest I wouldn't even have problem with most of the fluff. The "scions of Gulliman" stuff in the Space Marine codex was silly, but it could be ignored as obvious propoganda. And the Blood sacrifice stuff isn't new - there are religious types and cultists (Death cultists) who do murder and blood ritual/sacrifice in the name of the Emperor all the time. Had the Grey Knights just used it differently (EG "The noble blood of those Sisters who gave up their lives in sacrifice to the Emperor's Will Empowered the Grey Knights" it probably wouldn't have been objectionable, becuase the way it IS phrased makes the GK seem like Death Cultists (which they technically aren't. There's lots of rooms for semantics, irony and hypocrisy in what the Grey Knights ARe - but this is 40K, that tends to happen as a rule, esp with the Imperium.)

Besides, GK do use sorcery - they just call it FAITH OF THE EMPEROR (sorcery, at least as FFG and such define it, as being warp power bestowed upon a mortal thorugh the conduit of a God or similar.). It's a bit silly to say they need Daemonic shit when the EMPEROR is supposed to be sufficient for their purposes - I mean its heresy to say that daemons are more effective than the Emperor

It would also make more sense if they had some sense of consequences tied to this if the GK were really supposed to be possessing it. The idea that they can literally do anything daemonic or warp/corruption related and not even risk anything is pretty anticlimactic and silly, and kinda defeats the hwole point of the dangers of the warp and why Grey Knights are supposed to be so super duper resilient.

[Ryan Thunder]

Er...with the exception of Space Marines and the Dreadknight, none of those are from Matt Ward.

I could've sworn I'd seen his name attached to those but it would seem I am dreadfully mistaken. Sorry about that.

[Lord Relvenous]

Er...with the exception of Space Marines and the Dreadknight, none of those are from Matt Ward.

I could've sworn I'd seen his name attached to those but it would seem I am dreadfully mistaken. Sorry about that.

Also, there's really nothing wrong with the IG codex. Sure it's competitive, but all codices should be. IG is by no means the end all, be all of codices.

The fact that you managed to only get two things right about Matt Ward in your rant does make me chuckle, though.

For me, my hatred of Matt Ward stems from the fact that he should't be a 40k fluff writer. He wrote for fantasy, and created one of the most unbalanced codices I've ever seen. Chaos Daemons was the competitive army in WHFB 7th Edition. Why give him another chance after that? Ward doesn't get 40k, and that shows int he fluff that he has introduced that drives people mad through anger. He has erroneously characterized many an army, and I don't expect it to stop. If Matt Ward just wrote rules, I could get over it. However, his fluff continues to be printed with just terribad levels of not getting the army he's writing.

Blood Angels ally with Necrons (unlikely, but possible) and then let them live afterwards, with the Necrons doing the same (lolwut?). All Space Marine chapters aspire to be Ultramarines and honor Roboute Guilliman (bullshit). Grey Knights sacrifice SoBs in a blood ritual (ridiculous) when the could have just asked for the SoBs to martyr themselves (a life given for the God-Emperor is more powerful an act of faith than the slaughter of the Emperor's most zealous servants). Grey Knights carry a daemon weapon into battle against Daemons (stupid. Is it not safe on Titan? Why is it more safe carried into battle?)

In essence, Matt Ward frustrates me because he's hurting the fluff, and he honestly doesn't know it. The responsibility for that however, lies just as much with GW's creative leads than with Matt Ward. Matt Ward's continued employment at GW is just one point in a long list of mistakes and policies that have alienated gamers. If anything, Matt Ward is indicative of and a symptom of GW's overall failure at building customer satisfaction, not the cause of said failing.

[Srelex]

Then again, I think GW had someone paired to him when he did the recent WD Sisters Codex, hopefully to put some reins on him, so all may not be lost.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

If anything, Matt Ward is indicative of and a symptom of GW's overall failure at building customer satisfaction, not the cause of said failing.

This. When it comes to 5th Edition, Ward is just the most salient symptom of a much deeper disease. For all the grief Ward (rightly) gets for shit like Dreadknights, I highly doubt his was the only mind behind that nonsense. Ultimately, a team of people had to be involved and look at the various Codex drafts and say "Ok, this is good, let's print this".

[Thinktank]

Thank you all (#) for some excellent comments and exposition on how the new WH40K edition measure up in your views. This kind of commentary helps me and possibly others see these sort of matters from another point of view. To possibly digest it all better.

While not the entirety of my distaste of 5th edition's fluff, the "GK - SoB blood ritual" certainly has a great deal of promennance. The Gray Knights are supposed to be so resistant to corruption because they do not do corrupting actions. When I read that, I was completetly in a state of Whisky Tango Foxtrot. This group of literal heroes as I see it, whould rather die than tarnish their spiritual merit. I agree it would have made sense, if the Sisters had martyred themselves willingly to give their 'Brothers Battle' a chance at survival if not victory. Yet for these truly pure souls to engage in such an impure act... it just doesn't fit for me. It's like reading grimdark fanfic by a 14 year-old. It has all the obvious decorations it needs but deep down somebody just doesn't get it on a very important (to me) level.


(#)Except for you Stark of course...

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

While not the entirety of my distaste of 5th edition's fluff, the "GK - SoB blood ritual" certainly has a great deal of promennance. The Gray Knights are supposed to be so resistant to corruption because they do not do corrupting actions. When I read that, I was completetly in a state of Whisky Tango Foxtrot. This group of literal heroes as I see it, whould rather die than tarnish their spiritual merit. I agree it would have made sense, if the Sisters had martyred themselves willingly to give their 'Brothers Battle' a chance at survival if not victory. Yet for these truly pure souls to engage in such an impure act... it just doesn't fit for me. It's like reading grimdark fanfic by a 14 year-old. It has all the obvious decorations it needs but deep down somebody just doesn't get it on a very important (to me) level.

Heh. If the Grey Knight in my Deathwatch group (don't ask, ugh) ever tried something like that, I'd slap him with an instantaneous 50+ Corruption points, permanent revocation of his Grey Knight's immunity to Corruption, and a swift declaration of Excommunicate Traitoris should the group's Inquisitorial oversight ever get wind of the matter.

Speaking of Deathwatch, it's interesting that 40K-RP is any many ways supplanting the core miniatures game. Fantasy Flight Games have, ironically, been doing a much better job of not only keeping 40K on track, but also writing new fluff that fits within the setting and fleshes it out in a cohesive, logical manner than GW have lately. The Calixis Sector (which, granted, was more Black Industries than FFG), Koronus Expanse, and Jericho reach fluff have all been pretty solid. I'm liking the Jericho Reach in particular.

[Ryan Thunder]

Also, there's really nothing wrong with the IG codex. Sure it's competitive, but all codices should be. IG is by no means the end all, be all of codices.

There are only two things that bother me about that codex; the Vendetta gunship, and the seeming overabundance of special rules where they just aren't needed or even warranted. I otherwise enjoy playing with and against it.

The Tyranid Codex is more bothersome but it's been so long since I've looked at it or played against it that I've forgotten what, exactly, my issues were with (nearly) every unit in the list.