ROTS Revisited: Did palpatine genuinely lose to Windu?

[AndroAsc]

I believe this question was asked and debated hotly when ROTS was released. I followed some of the discussions but never stood around long enough to see the conclusion.

When watching the Blu-Ray release... this question come back to me. Has there been a definitive "canonical" answer as to whether Palpatine genuinely lost the saber match to Windu, or was he faking it all this while?

My take:
1) Palpatine genuinely lost the saber combat to Windu. However, he also decided to stop fighting when he sensed Anakin was coming (i.e. he could have easily force pushed/lightning Windu and make a hasty retreat when he lost his saber).
2) The entire "I'm so weak" and facial scarring part was a fake show put up by Palpatine, as evidenced by how quickly he recovers once Anakin chops off Windu's arm.

[Captain Seafort]

My take:
1) Palpatine genuinely lost the saber combat to Windu. However, he also decided to stop fighting when he sensed Anakin was coming (i.e. he could have easily force pushed/lightning Windu and make a hasty retreat when he lost his saber).

Agreed. Anakin wasn't present at the time, and the risk that Windu would have simply taken his head off was too great.

2) The entire "I'm so weak" and facial scarring part was a fake show put up by Palpatine, as evidenced by how quickly he recovers once Anakin chops off Windu's arm.

I doubt the scarring was an act, and I doubt that Palpatine's weakness was entirely pretence. I do, however, agree that he was significantly exaggerating the effect the lightning was having on him, both physically and the effort of generating it.

[khursed]

I believe the whole thing was an elaborate ruse designed to lure Anakin to the dark side.

The way he dispatched the other two, and how he was merely toying with mace the entire fight, as if simply killing time before the final.

but that's just my own opinion.

[Dr Roberts]

I used to think it was official that Palpatine was faking. The problem is how could you add it now? The only person who could say is Palpatine and he could just be lying.

[Anguirus]

I think that thematically, it's much stronger if Palpatine was really about to be killed. This distinguishes Anakin as the one really ESSENTIAL Sith apprentice (without his turn at that moment everything comes tumbling down), it establishes that once you SEE that there's a Sith Lord pulling your strings you can prevail (otherwise why bother fighting, you're doomed no matter what), and it makes the character of Mace Windu have an actual point and moment of glory instead of just being an exposition machine.

[TC Pilot]

Publius did a pretty good analysis of the fight based on the novelization's description. Apparently, Mace's combined skill with Vaapad and his shatterpoint ability allowed him to best Papatine in the actual saber duel, but that Palpatine was on the verge of basically shoving Mace's lightsaber back into his face with the barrage of Force Lightning.

It strikes me as rather convenient that Palpatine's Force powers just give out, with him moaning pitifully about being "too weak," only to immediately start screaming "Unlimited power!" the moment Anakin sides with him.

[Captain Seafort]

It strikes me as rather convenient that Palpatine's Force powers just give out, with him moaning pitifully about being "too weak," only to immediately start screaming "Unlimited power!" the moment Anakin sides with him.

True to an extent, but given the extent to which he was melting, I think it's more likely that he was exaggerating his weakness than putting it on entirely.

[Anguirus]

Publius did a pretty good analysis of the fight based on the novelization's description. Apparently, Mace's combined skill with Vaapad and his shatterpoint ability allowed him to best Papatine in the actual saber duel, but that Palpatine was on the verge of basically shoving Mace's lightsaber back into his face with the barrage of Force Lightning.

The fight is so different between the sources though...

It strikes me as rather convenient that Palpatine's Force powers just give out, with him moaning pitifully about being "too weak," only to immediately start screaming "Unlimited power!" the moment Anakin sides with him.

Oh, he's clearly playing the situation as it unfolds, as soon as Anakin shows up.

[Havok]

Yes.

[Flagg]

Yes.

This. Palpatines force lightning was getting blown right back at him by Windu and that was the only weapon he had left. The only way to say he threw the fight is to claim he purposely lost the lightsaber duel, but there is zero evidence of that and the novel contradicts it. It may hurt your butt if you're a dickless fanboy, but Palpatine fucking lost. Get over it.

[Crazedwraith]

On the one hand there's no real evidence that Palpatine threw the fight. On the other hand, its remarkably convenient for Palpatine that he lost just how and when he did. Setting up the crucial choice to turn Anakin fully to the darkside. He lost while Anakin was close enough to save him and without losing any major limbs.

Could be he threw the fight, could be just luck or 'the will of the force'.

Another theory comes to mind; I've been re-read Matt Stover's Mace Windu book 'Shatterpoint' wherein Mace is allowed to stay with a band of guerrilla fighters after loosing a battle with their leader Kar Vastor. Vastor's a force sensitive though and would realise if Windu had simply thrown the fight. So Windu sets up the fight in such a way that he can't win it even is he tries his hardest. Making his capitulation seem genuine.

It occurs to me that Palptine could have done the same thing. Given his fight with Yoda, Palpatine's fight style seems to be geared more towards lightening and massive amounts of TK, rather than straight up swordsmanship.

If Palps had situated himself in the senate room to face Windu as well, the fight might have gone in his favour. Being in his office may be his way of ensuring he lost but didn't throw it.

All just conjecture of course.

[Knife]

We know Palpatine's grand plan was changed periodically with new events. He wanted to kill Amidala after all, at Naboo in TPM. There is no reason not to expect him to roll with the punches. He was losing to Windu and saw/felt Anakin coming and twisted events to favor him. Thematically it works, making everything that happens afterwards depend on Anakin's choice; which works again 20 years later when it's all Anakin's choice again. A redo, to do what he didn't do before, and choose light over dark. Service over power.

[spaceviking]

I think a pertinent question is what would Anakin have done if he had arrived to a victorious Palpatine. Coming to the rescue of a Sith Lord and killing a Jedi master surely cemented Anakin's allegiance, but perhaps so would a a show of the overwhelming power of the dark side.

If Palaptine believed he could win Anakin's allegiance regardless, then it was not a show. If not then the degree that Palpatine fought back is a matter of opinion.

[Captain Seafort]

If Palaptine believed he could win Anakin's allegiance regardless, then it was not a show. If not then the degree that Palpatine fought back is a matter of opinion.

On the other hand, if Palpatine had thrown the fight and Windu, rather than kicking his sabre out of his hand had simply decapitated him then the question of Anakin's allegiance would be moot.

[The Grim Squeaker]

It strikes me as rather convenient that Palpatine's Force powers just give out, with him moaning pitifully about being "too weak," only to immediately start screaming "Unlimited power!" the moment Anakin sides with him.

Oh, he's clearly playing the situation as it unfolds, as soon as Anakin shows up.

A possible additional explanation or theory is that the Chosen One, Anakin Skywalker, the apothesis of the will of the force and the immense power he is and represents turning to the Dark side and the Sith, might have been beneficial to Palpatine's powers.
It's not that farfetched, sites of great tragedies/battles/events are known to be very strong in the Darkside, while others are potent to all (The Valley of the Jedi from the Dark Forces/JK games).
I might be overly influenced by @Lord Shadowspawn's monologue on how Sidious "Couldn't lose" as long as he was following out fate/The dill of the Dark.
/Take with pinch of salt.

[lstyer]

I think that thematically, it's much stronger if Palpatine was really about to be killed.

I can't back it up with any argument as to what was happening, but I, too, prefer the notion that Palpatine lost the duel "fair and square," for pretty much the reasons you list. It just leaves us with a stronger story.

[DudeGuyMan]

Given the way he smokes three other Jedi Masters in less time than it takes to say it, then farts around with Mace that long, then conveniently hits the floor half a second before Anakin walks in, then goes from "I'm so weak!" to "POWAR!!1!" at the drop of a hat, I'm inclined to think he was faking.

It seems like a stretch, but if ever there were someone willing to bet his own personal ass on such a convoluted outcome, it's Palpatine. This is a guy who can see the future, who has great faith in his own precognition, and who is a schemer of absolutely epic proportions with a well-documented willingness to gamble his own life in order to execute those schemes.

[Eframepilot]

Given the way he smokes three other Jedi Masters in less time than it takes to say it, then farts around with Mace that long, then conveniently hits the floor half a second before Anakin walks in, then goes from "I'm so weak!" to "POWAR!!1!" at the drop of a hat, I'm inclined to think he was faking.

It seems like a stretch, but if ever there were someone willing to bet his own personal ass on such a convoluted outcome, it's Palpatine. This is a guy who can see the future, who has great faith in his own precognition, and who is a schemer of absolutely epic proportions with a well-documented willingness to gamble his own life in order to execute those schemes.

Yeah. He was only vulnerable for a few seconds. Sidious lost his lightsaber moments before Anakin entered the room; precognition wouldn't even have been necessary to sense Anakin's coming.

I think that Sidious didn't go all out against Windu (if he had, his eyes would have changed to Sith yellow) and basically allowed his defeat to happen. Killing Windu before Anakin arrived would not have cornered Anakin in the same way. I suspect that Anakin would have attacked him in an attempt to force Sidious to reveal his secrets, and while he still might have turned to the dark side, it wouldn't have been nearly as easy for Sidious.