Federation/Empire fleet battle: Not smooth Imp sailing?

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-07-08 07:00pm

"1. They are out of phase."

Handwaving. "Blah blah phase blah blah invincible." They can be affected by gravity and they can even respire, that is canon. Please explain how Ro and LaForge would be able to walk and breathe otherwise.

"2. How? They are out of phase."

But they still interact with gaseous particles and with gravity. Too bad.

"3. They are out of phase."

But they still interact with gaseous particles and with gravity. Too bad.

"4. This never happened, so this is a lie."

Do you want me to explain the word "likely" to you?

"5. The Enterprise-D did it."

That was the Pegasus, not the E-D. The cloak was lost.

"The Romulan device was not a phase cloak,"

Bullshit. Proof of this insane speculation.

"and because they could see everyone, everyone should have seen them, but they did not."

Irrelevant.

"They passed through walls, but not the floor, so using that episode is useless for information on phase cloaks."

No. I can easily explain that by concluding that phase cloaked objects are affected by SIF fields

"It was also an accident."

Irrelevant. All technologies are is controlled accidents.

"They weren't really phase cloaked like a ship would be."

Proof? The episode name is "The Next Phase", implying a phase cloak.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » 2002-07-08 07:22pm

Eleas wrote: Handwaving. "Blah blah phase blah blah invincible." They can be affected by gravity and they can even respire, that is canon. Please explain how Ro and LaForge would be able to walk and breathe otherwise.

Explain why no one could see them.

But they still interact with gaseous particles and with gravity. Too bad.

Explain why no one could see them.

But they still interact with gaseous particles and with gravity. Too bad.

Explain why no one could see them.

Do you want me to explain the word "likely" to you?

Why is it likely? It never happened. You can't make up things like this with nothing to back it up.

That was the Pegasus, not the E-D. The cloak was lost.

Seeing no other choice, Riker suggests that they use Pressman's experiment, the secret prototype for a cloaking device that allows ships to travel through solid matter, to escape. Pressman is furious to have his experiment revealed, but Picard is equally furious that the admiral has violated the Federation treaty against developing this type of technology. But despite its dangers, Picard agrees to use it to escape the asteroid, thus revealing the process to the Romulan ship. Afterwards, he places Pressman under arrest for violating Federation law, and when Riker reminds him that he, too, is guilty, Picard grimly arrests his first officer as well.

Bullshit. Proof of this insane speculation.

They did not mention that it was.

Irrelevant.

Why, because it conflicts with with you think?

No. I can easily explain that by concluding that phase cloaked objects are affected by SIF fields

They pushed the Romulan out of the ship.

Irrelevant. All technologies are is controlled accidents.

The way it was initiated is not it's normal operating method.

Proof? The episode name is "The Next Phase", implying a phase cloak.

It was a transporter accident.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-08 07:39pm

Lemme handel this one

But they still interact with gaseous particles and with gravity. Too bad.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Explain why no one could see them.

WTF does Why no one can see them have anything to do with anything
THEY where walking around and BREATHING, IE breath the action of taking in air striping it of nessary materals for the human body then expiring the unessary parts and waste products
What do you think they where holding their breath for the entire time the ship was phase cloacked?

But they still interact with gaseous particles and with gravity. Too bad.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Explain why no one could see them.

Look at me Gravity does not effect me!
SPLAT as the Planet runs into him
Back this up or shut the hell up

Eleas is dead on with this and you can't seem to get it through your head your wrong, Not only wrong but idiotic wrong, You are restating what you said no matter WHAT is said not acutal is said

Could this
No
How about
No
What if
No
Sorry bud that don't fly in the Real world, Sci-Fi Or on this board

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » 2002-07-08 07:43pm

They could see, so they were interacting with light. Therefore they should have been visible. Explain this, and then I'll listen to everything else. What about everything else. Like how this was not the normal operating method. explain why they didn't fall through the floor, too.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-07-08 07:44pm

"Explain why no one could see them."

I don't need to. All we have is a demonstrated interaction, gaseous and gravitic. The onus is on you to disprove my statements.

"Explain why no one could see them."

I don't need to. All we have is a demonstrated interaction, gaseous and gravitic. The onus is on you to disprove my statements.

"Explain why no one could see them."

I don't need to. All we have is a demonstrated interaction, gaseous and gravitic. The onus is on you to disprove my statements.

"Why is it likely? It never happened. You can't make up things like this with nothing to back it up."

We see a gravitic interaction, which would happen between ships.

"Seeing no other choice, Riker suggests that they use Pressman's experiment, the secret prototype for a cloaking device that allows ships to travel through solid matter, to escape. Pressman is furious to have his experiment revealed, but Picard is equally furious that the admiral has violated the Federation treaty against developing this type of technology. But despite its dangers, Picard agrees to use it to escape the asteroid, thus revealing the process to the Romulan ship. Afterwards, he places Pressman under arrest for violating Federation law, and when Riker reminds him that he, too, is guilty, Picard grimly arrests his first officer as well."

I stand corrected. So the Federation has one (1) phase cloak, and the project shut down.

"They did not mention that it was."

GEORDI: "a few years back, we got intelligence reports that the Klingons were working on combining a phase inverter and a cloaking device. In theory, they believed that a phased ship could hide anywhere ... even inside a planet. And conventional weapons would be useless against it."

In other words, you are wrong.

"Why, because it conflicts with with you think?"

No, because it is irrelevant. Someone said that the phase cloak is vulnerable to x, you retort by saying they should be visible. It's a total red herring, which you apparently try to use in an effort to disallow the entire episode, which we aren't allowed to do by the rules of canonicity.

"They pushed the Romulan out of the ship."

Then it might be the gravity plating. Anyway, I'm not required to prove the realism of a Trek episode - that would be a hopeless venture. I just note the obvious and glaring problems with its technology.

"The way it was initiated is not it's normal operating method."

...which means nothing. Apparently, it achieved the desired results. You have no proof to the contrary.

"It was a transporter accident."

Doesn't change a thing, since the Romulan phase cloak was responsible.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-07-08 07:46pm

"Eleas is dead on with this and you can't seem to get it through your head your wrong, Not only wrong but idiotic wrong, You are restating what you said no matter WHAT is said not acutal is said"

Thanks for the assist, mr Blackadder sir.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » 2002-07-08 07:55pm

Eleas wrote:I don't need to. All we have is a demonstrated interaction, gaseous and gravitic. The onus is on you to disprove my statements.

They could see, so they were interacting with light. Therefore they should have been visible. Explain this, and then I'll listen to everything else.

We see a gravitic interaction, which would happen between ships.

That has nothing to do with this.

I stand corrected. So the Federation has one (1) phase cloak, and the project shut down.

They could make more if they had a desire to.

GEORDI: "a few years back, we got intelligence reports that the Klingons were working on combining a phase inverter and a cloaking device. In theory, they believed that a phased ship could hide anywhere ... even inside a planet. And conventional weapons would be useless against it."

In other words, you are wrong.

Why didn't he say it was similiar to a phase cloak? He talks about Klingon cloaks, so why not the Federation's?

No, because it is irrelevant. Someone said that the phase cloak is vulnerable to x, you retort by saying they should be visible. It's a total red herring, which you apparently try to use in an effort to disallow the entire episode, which we aren't allowed to do by the rules of canonicity.

Yes, and phase cloaked ships are vulnerabgle to being seen.
Then it might be the gravity plating. Anyway, I'm not required to prove the realism of a Trek episode - that would be a hopeless venture. I just note the obvious and glaring problems with its technology.

...which means nothing. Apparently, it achieved the desired results. You have no proof to the contrary.

Add floors to the vulnerable list.

Doesn't change a thing, since the Romulan phase cloak was responsible.

No, it was a strange effect that the transporter induced on the transporter beam.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-07-08 07:55pm

Shadow wrote:They could see, so they were interacting with light. Therefore they should have been visible. Explain this, and then I'll listen to everything else.

Yes, and the same goes for every other fucking cloaking device ever seen in ST. Your point?

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » 2002-07-08 07:58pm

Howedar wrote:
Shadow wrote:They could see, so they were interacting with light. Therefore they should have been visible. Explain this, and then I'll listen to everything else.
Yes, and the same goes for every other fucking cloaking device ever seen in ST. Your point?

These have strange sensor sensor systems. Humans have eyeballs.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-08 08:00pm

I'll answer only one mornic thing this time around
I'll think I talk an hour of Board Patrol

(For Refrence at my Currant Job, My Boss can't tell the diffrance between me surfing the web and working)

They could make more if they had a desire to.

How? Did they keep the plans?
The Rescurch of this Tecnology was FORBIDDEN Standerd Orders when dealing with illegale Technology is to DESTROY IT

Why doesn't the Federation Trasnport Nuclear Weapons into Imperal Ships
1. Cause Transports can't
2. Becaue NUKES ARE ILLEGALE technology

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » 2002-07-08 08:03pm

Mr Bean wrote:How? Did they keep the plans?
The Rescurch of this Tecnology was FORBIDDEN Standerd Orders when dealing with illegale Technology is to DESTROY IT

Why doesn't the Federation Trasnport Nuclear Weapons into Imperal Ships
1. Cause Transports can't
2. Becaue NUKES ARE ILLEGALE technology

How do you know they destroyed it? They wouldn't keep it for if they needed it? Since when are nukes illegal?[/quote]

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-07-08 08:27pm

"They could see, so they were interacting with light. Therefore they should have been visible. Explain this, and then I'll listen to everything else."

I am not required to play public relations games, nor to give a complete explanation on the workings of a completely unrealistic technology. I simply note that it shows the following weaknesses.

"That has nothing to do with this."

The question was about the phase cloak interacting adversely with shields or dense materials. I simply noted that it would be a non-issue anyway, since the ships' gravity generators would do freaky shit to each other.

And, anyway, apparently there was some interaction between matter as well. They could feel it as their hands passed through. This stuff would probably be unhealthy to critical systems like computers and power transfer lines.

"They could make more if they had a desire to."

I love this kind of wild speculation. How do you even know the project survived? It was black ops, and might as well be completely lost.

"Why didn't he say it was similiar to a phase cloak? He talks about Klingon cloaks, so why not the Federation's?"

1. The words described a cloak that phased a ship. Ergo, a phase cloak.
2. The Federation has no regular cloaks. WHat you're trying to say here I can't imagine.

"Yes, and phase cloaked ships are vulnerabgle to being seen."

Are they? Well, thanks. If that's true - not that it's likely to be, since there is no evidence - it just makes phase cloaks yet worse for combat purposes.

"Add floors to the vulnerable list."

I can't imagine what point you're trying to make here.

"No, it was a strange effect that the transporter induced on the transporter beam."

Proof that counters the entire point of the story?

LMSx · Post by **LMSx** » 2002-07-08 08:36pm

......Ooooooookay......

Even if the Federation finds a phase-cloak, firing Quantum Torpedoes won't destroy the ISD.

A grand total of 1 gigaton of firepower combined? If you multiply that number by 1000, you still wouldn't be close to overloading the ISD's shields.

Even if the phase-cloaked vessel was invulnerable to any type of weapon, couldn't the ISD make a micro-leap through Hyperspace foward to where the fleet is, and summarily remove the advantage of range?

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-07-09 12:03am

Shadow wrote:Since when are nukes illegal?

The assumption that nukes are illegal probably comes from the fact that the Federation is _ridiculously_ PC, and PC activists have been trying to get rid of nukes in the US for years.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-07-09 12:24am

Why are we assuming that weapons can be fired from a phase cloaked ship?

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2002-07-09 01:07am

Howedar wrote:Why are we assuming that weapons can be fired from a phase cloaked ship?

I think you've found the assumption holding up the big lie. If the ship is "out of phase" then its communications sytem will be "out of phase" its weapons will be "out of phase," hell its pornogrpahic holodeck programs will be "out of phase."

IDMR · Post by **IDMR** » 2002-07-09 02:38am

CmdrWilkens wrote:
Howedar wrote:Why are we assuming that weapons can be fired from a phase cloaked ship?
I think you've found the assumption holding up the big lie. If the ship is "out of phase" then its communications sytem will be "out of phase" its weapons will be "out of phase," hell its pornogrpahic holodeck programs will be "out of phase."

Much as this makes sense (as much as it can, anyway, given the whole idiotic 'out of phase' idea), on screen evidence seems to suggest that at least the sensor systems are partially functional, and so is the star drive.

But this is, of course, no gurantee that weapons can function at all.

LMSx · Post by **LMSx** » 2002-07-09 03:51am

Just to throw something out, a cloaking device encompasses just the ship. If the cloak is "phased", that would mean that inside the cloak, everything is "out of phase". So what if a Phaser bank is phired? Wouldn't the beam be out of phase phor the duration spent under the cloak, then when it left the field, it would be "in phase" and hit the ISD?

It works pretty much the same way for the SW cloak, the Chimaera made a pretty good use of the cloak in SOTP and VOTF.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-09 04:17am

Hmm, possible it works that way, but will Starfleet have any use of it?
No. ISDs are just too strong.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-09 08:02am

For funs sake we always considerd ISD and ST shields to be equal but we've just been deseving ourselfs most of the time on it :\

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-07-09 11:35am

LMSx wrote:Just to throw something out, a cloaking device encompasses just the ship. If the cloak is "phased", that would mean that inside the cloak, everything is "out of phase". So what if a Phaser bank is phired? Wouldn't the beam be out of phase phor the duration spent under the cloak, then when it left the field, it would be "in phase" and hit the ISD?

It works pretty much the same way for the SW cloak, the Chimaera made a pretty good use of the cloak in SOTP and VOTF.

If this were the case, wouldn't a phaser on a cloaked ship fire, being cloaked until it passed the bounds of the cloak, and then become uncloaked?
No, it can't fire at all.

There is no reason, nor evidence, to assume that phase cloaks are any different in this regard.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-07-09 12:14pm

Okay, I never suggested that weapons could be fired from a phase cloak. There is no reason for the spotter ship to be manned in the first place, especially if the ship is phase cloaked, and therefore doesn't need to perform standard evasive manuevers to evade hostile fire. Gravitic sensors can detect it, but what is that going to do to help, given that the empire has never exhibitted any sort of gravitic weapons technology, the closest they have being the interdictor's gravity well generator, and I would love to know how to turn that into a viable weapon.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2002-07-09 08:32pm

consequences wrote:Okay, I never suggested that weapons could be fired from a phase cloak. There is no reason for the spotter ship to be manned in the first place, especially if the ship is phase cloaked, and therefore doesn't need to perform standard evasive manuevers to evade hostile fire. Gravitic sensors can detect it, but what is that going to do to help, given that the empire has never exhibitted any sort of gravitic weapons technology, the closest they have being the interdictor's gravity well generator, and I would love to know how to turn that into a viable weapon.

Cobblers to gravitic sensors detecting a phase cloaked ship, if it's broadcasting, it may as well be wrapped in christmas lights and waving big flags saying 'HERE I AM!'

The only trouble is what's to be done about it, a phase cloaked ship can pass through solid matter well enough, and things which enter the phase distortion field after activation don't get brought into phase with the ship (if they did, then it wouldn't pass though matter, it would just clonk into it as it came into phase with the ship), so the nerve gas attack mentioned beforehand won't work, it'll simply get left behind when the ship moves.

LMSx · Post by **LMSx** » 2002-07-09 10:10pm

Ah, okay, I was thinking of SW cloak where you can fire while cloaked....just blind.

The Klingon/Romulan ships come to mind, now that I think of it.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-07-09 10:39pm

Vendetta wrote:
consequences wrote:so the nerve gas attack mentioned beforehand won't work, it'll simply get left behind when the ship moves.

Yet Laforge and the woman in "The Next Phase", who acted in every way like they were phase cloaked, interacted with the non-phased oxygen in the Enterprise-D. Thus, it appears that phase cloaked objects interact with their surroundings, but only weakly or only with highly reactive substances (IE it reacts to oxygen, but not rock or a metal bulkhead).