Why do people think Star Trek is scientific?

[Freefall]

Think about it, even heroic people can do all sorts of cruel things to machines they couldn't do to fleshy beings, and that isn't some clear-cut anti-technology bias for you? I think that only reinforces my argument. Add to that that a lot of the droids, including the various war droids, in Star Wars are at least semi-self aware and we're heading into quite disturbing territory here.

No moreso than Ninja Turtles, GI Joe, H-Man, Voltron, Power Rangers, Transformers, etc. It might say something about our society that viewing acts of violence against machines is considered perfectly acceptable while acts of violence against people is not (though I think you'd need a pretty amazing argument to convince most people they shouldn't be any different), but I don't think it is any kind of actual message George Lucas was trying to send.

The Kaminoans (not the Neimodians) are portrayed as immoral and sleazy (with one single exception), caring only for their bottom line and not at all who wants an army and what their artificial warriors will be eventually be used for. You couldn't get a clearer anti-science and hi-tech message if you tried.

My mistake on the name. I only remember two of them from AotC, and they seemed like perfectly reasonable, up-front business men to me, who also happened to take a lot of pride in the quality of their creations. I did not see anything sleazy or immoral about them there.

It's canon (second only to the movies even) and personally approved of by Lucas. Either deal with it or concede.

As far as I'm aware, it's still not G-canon, which is basically what I'm discussing here, since the initial criticisms were all aimed at the initial movie, i.e. George Lucas, and what other authors may have added since then isn't really relevant to what he was saying. Now, if the cartoon episodes really do get a high level of personal attention from him, I might rethink that, but a general "Lucas seal of approval" doesn't mean a lot to me, since I have heard before that most of the EU is like that anyway, and he obviously hasn't even read any of it, nor does he seem to particularly care what happens in it as long as certain sacred cows are not violated.

This is the PST forum. I'm seeing a lot of Star Wars discussion.

Sorry. Trek seems pretty clear cut on the matter though. As others have said, while the science presented in the show is highly unrealistic, it is still presented as being scientific in-universe, and science and technology can solve pretty much every problem and understand everything, given sufficient time. This shows a huge love for science and tech, while at the same time demonstrating at least equal amounts of ignorance for both, which is pretty funny, really.

The only time I can really think of (though this is just off the top of my head) where it was not the answer was in Q Who, where Picard had to beg Q to save them from the cold, ruthless grasp of the Borg.

I also remember my sister hated the later parts of DS9 because she felt they became too religious, like they started treating the Prophets and Pa Wraiths more as gods than weird aliens, but I'd have to think on this more. Still, like with Star Wars, I don't think a few instances here and there can be taken as showing an anti-tech bias as a whole, just that they occasionally provide warnings about how dangerous it can be if it gets out of control or is not properly understood, which is really just common sense.

[Ford Prefect]

Luke eschewing technology in favour of using the Force is literally the most pivotal moment in A New Hope. It's at the thematic and narrative crux of the film, the climatic moment. I mean, blah blah blah yes he used the Force to accurately hit something with his proton torpedoes, but the proton torpedoes were not the real actor here: it was Luke. Using the Force.

[Enigma]

I don't see much anti-science in ST but quite a few anti-artificial intelligence.

[Enigma]

It's canon (second only to the movies even) and personally approved of by Lucas. Either deal with it or concede.

As far as I'm aware, it's still not G-canon, which is basically what I'm discussing here, since the initial criticisms were all aimed at the initial movie, i.e. George Lucas, and what other authors may have added since then isn't really relevant to what he was saying. Now, if the cartoon episodes really do get a high level of personal attention from him, I might rethink that, but a general "Lucas seal of approval" doesn't mean a lot to me, since I have heard before that most of the EU is like that anyway, and he obviously hasn't even read any of it, nor does he seem to particularly care what happens in it as long as certain sacred cows are not violated.

Actually, George Lucas is directly involved with TCW. It is even done on his ranch. I think that ranks pretty high up there even if it is just one small step below G-canon.

[Ford Prefect]

I don't see much anti-science in ST but quite a few anti-artificial intelligence.

Both Data and the Doctor are portrayed in a very positive way. Certainly as a whole the Federation is pretty anti-AI (much in the way they appear to be pretty anti-genetic engineering), but that episode focusing on Data's trial is a pretty resounding cry on the part of the narrative to dispute this view.

[Freefall]

Actually, George Lucas is directly involved with TCW. It is even done on his ranch. I think that ranks pretty high up there even if it is just one small step below G-canon.

Fair enough. I'll concede the point then.

Both Data and the Doctor are portrayed in a very positive way. Certainly as a whole the Federation is pretty anti-AI (much in the way they appear to be pretty anti-genetic engineering), but that episode focusing on Data's trial is a pretty resounding cry on the part of the narrative to dispute this view.

In later seasons the Doctor just about became a full blown Mary Sue, second only to Janeway in that regard. It actually made me kind of sick, since Picardo really was the best part of Voyager, but they just overplayed his character to such an absurd degree.

[Enigma]

I don't see much anti-science in ST but quite a few anti-artificial intelligence.

Both Data and the Doctor are portrayed in a very positive way. Certainly as a whole the Federation is pretty anti-AI (much in the way they appear to be pretty anti-genetic engineering), but that episode focusing on Data's trial is a pretty resounding cry on the part of the narrative to dispute this view.

I'm talking about ST as a whole. TOS was pretty much against robots and AI. TNG and beyond it turned more of anti AI rights. This could also explain the lack of robots\droids\cyborgs in the Federation. But when AIs in the form of current and former EMHs were introduced and became quasi commonplace, the Federation and Starfleet pretty much treated them as slaves and it took decades before they had any rights. Data was an outlier. He was unique, and IMHO, Starfleet let him enroll so they can see what he could do.

[Ford Prefect]

Sure, but try to keep in mind what the show actually said when it came to Data (or the Doctor). That bias exists in the context of the setting, but is that bias really reflected in the narrative? Certainly in the original series the show itself was pretty anti-robot, but The Next Generation expresses a different theme. Picard gives a stirring speech about it, even.

[Batman]

Given the fact that Starfleet was perfectly happy to have Data disassembled to see what makes him tick and their treatment of 'photonics' in VOY I'd say yeah it was. Individuals may consider AIs people, but the powers that be apparently do not, or at the very least consider them subhuman.

[Ford Prefect]

You need to learn to parse complex concepts. Just because Starfleet has this bias does not mean that Star Trek: The Next Generation has this bias.

[Stark]

Yeah, the distinction between Starfleet havign holominers and the show presenting this as good or bad is important.

[Cesario]

Given the fact that Starfleet was perfectly happy to have Data disassembled to see what makes him tick and their treatment of 'photonics' in VOY I'd say yeah it was. Individuals may consider AIs people, but the powers that be apparently do not, or at the very least consider them subhuman.

Remind me again what the official starfleet ruling was in "Measure of a man"?

Was I mistaken and Data really was ordered to be disassembled at the conclusion of that trial?

[Stark]

His whole attitude was one of a person who knew he was fighting established opinion.

[Enigma]

Yet Starfleet completely forgot and tried to after his daughter.

[Cesario]

Yet Starfleet completely forgot and tried to after his daughter.

Or, more accurately, attempted to make genocide against this newly manefested species harder by getting at least one of them off a ship that's regularly called into battle with the Romulans.

They were hamhanded and certainly in the wrong, but were trying to do a good thing.

[Enigma]

Yet Starfleet completely forgot and tried to after his daughter.

Or, more accurately, attempted to make genocide against this newly manefested species harder by getting at least one of them off a ship that's regularly called into battle with the Romulans.

They were hamhanded and certainly in the wrong, but were trying to do a good thing.

Yeah, try to prevent genocide by taking one of the only two known (I don't remember if Lore was introduced yet at the time.) and wanting to take it apart. Gee, either stay onboard a starship and face the risk it entails or go back to Starfleet Command and be reduced to nuts and bolts. lol. Hmmm.... hard decision.

[Enigma]

The Admiral at the end of that episode again left with a huge amount of respect for Data.

Because that was all he had left. If Lol (or whatever her name is spelled.), was completely functional, I doubt the admiral would have just left with "a huge amount of respect for Data". He'd be dragging Lol back to his ship by her hair.

[Cesario]

The Admiral at the end of that episode again left with a huge amount of respect for Data.

Because that was all he had left. If Lol (or whatever her name is spelled.), was completely functional, I doubt the admiral would have just left with "a huge amount of respect for Data". He'd be dragging Lol back to his ship by her hair.

Two things.

1) The admiral never wanted to take Lal apart. He wanted to raise her under controlled conditions and observe her development.

2) Even if he'd wanted to drag her back to his ship by the hair, Soong-type androids aren't known for being particularly easy to manhandle.

[Metahive]

It might simply be that the Kaminoans view the clones exactly as they are: cloned, disposable soldiers. They knew that even if the clones survived the war (unlikely as it was) that they would have very short lives compared with normal humans. Also, they were human clones. It's one thing to clone members of your own species, but breeding humans for that purpose makes them think, "Oh well, it's just a worthless human who's meant to die anyway. Why should I care what happens to him?"

So, being a bunch of racist pricks that treat their sentient creations like cattle is supposed to make them look better? What kind of world do you live in?

No moreso than Ninja Turtles, GI Joe, H-Man, Voltron, Power Rangers, Transformers, etc. It might say something about our society that viewing acts of violence against machines is considered perfectly acceptable while acts of violence against people is not (though I think you'd need a pretty amazing argument to convince most people they shouldn't be any different), but I don't think it is any kind of actual message George Lucas was trying to send.

If you had seen any episode of Clone Wars and the amount of humanization even the battledroids get to the point of acting visibly depressed when oodles of them are about to be senselessly wasted and yet that fact is never acknowledged within the series by anyone, including the heroes, you'd be changing your tune quickly. Machines, no matter how self-aware -> fair play for everyone in the Warsverse. R2 is the only droid who gets any special consideration. None other does, including 3P0 who Padme at one point sends directly into a line of fire to lure some probe droids out and then chuckles at his distress.

My mistake on the name. I only remember two of them from AotC, and they seemed like perfectly reasonable, up-front business men to me, who also happened to take a lot of pride in the quality of their creations. I did not see anything sleazy or immoral about them there.

Just your average arms-dealers who sell their deadly toys to the highest bidder, eh? Nope, definitely nothing sleazy about that sort of people, not at all [/sarcasm].

As far as I'm aware, it's still not G-canon, which is basically what I'm discussing here, since the initial criticisms were all aimed at the initial movie, i.e. George Lucas, and what other authors may have added since then isn't really relevant to what he was saying. Now, if the cartoon episodes really do get a high level of personal attention from him, I might rethink that, but a general "Lucas seal of approval" doesn't mean a lot to me, since I have heard before that most of the EU is like that anyway, and he obviously hasn't even read any of it, nor does he seem to particularly care what happens in it as long as certain sacred cows are not violated.

I see you already conceded that point but it has to be stressed once again that the 3D Clone Wars series is one of Lucas' pet projects. Events happening within that series are perfectly valid canon, including all its numerous examples of presenting hi-tech and science as mostly being instruments of bad people.

To drive the point home, consider who the most heroic faction in the Warsverse are, the Jedi. Battlemages who rely mostly on their magic rather than gadgets and who approach the grand unifying energy field of their universe, the Force, from mostly a mystical angle to the point of anthropomorphizing it shamelessly. Meanwhile everyone approaching said energy field from a more scientific POV is firmly in the bad guy camp, like Thrawn or Galak Fyarr. Isn't that evidence enough for Wars' anti-science bias?

[Metahive]

It might simply be that the Kaminoans view the clones exactly as they are: cloned, disposable soldiers. They knew that even if the clones survived the war (unlikely as it was) that they would have very short lives compared with normal humans. Also, they were human clones. It's one thing to clone members of your own species, but breeding humans for that purpose makes them think, "Oh well, it's just a worthless human who's meant to die anyway. Why should I care what happens to him?"

So, being a bunch of racist pricks that treat their sentient creations like cattle is supposed to make them look better? What kind of world do you live in?

No moreso than Ninja Turtles, GI Joe, H-Man, Voltron, Power Rangers, Transformers, etc. It might say something about our society that viewing acts of violence against machines is considered perfectly acceptable while acts of violence against people is not (though I think you'd need a pretty amazing argument to convince most people they shouldn't be any different), but I don't think it is any kind of actual message George Lucas was trying to send.

If you had seen any episode of Clone Wars and the amount of humanization even the battledroids get to the point of acting visibly depressed when oodles of them are about to be senselessly wasted and yet that fact is never acknowledged within the series by anyone, including the heroes, you'd be changing your tune quickly. Machines, no matter how self-aware -> fair play for everyone in the Warsverse. R2 is the only droid who gets any special consideration. None other does, including 3P0 who Padme at one point sends directly into a line of fire to lure some probe droids out and then chuckles at his distress.

My mistake on the name. I only remember two of them from AotC, and they seemed like perfectly reasonable, up-front business men to me, who also happened to take a lot of pride in the quality of their creations. I did not see anything sleazy or immoral about them there.

Just your average arms-dealers who sell their deadly toys to the highest bidder, eh? Nope, definitely nothing sleazy about that sort of people, not at all [/sarcasm].

As far as I'm aware, it's still not G-canon, which is basically what I'm discussing here, since the initial criticisms were all aimed at the initial movie, i.e. George Lucas, and what other authors may have added since then isn't really relevant to what he was saying. Now, if the cartoon episodes really do get a high level of personal attention from him, I might rethink that, but a general "Lucas seal of approval" doesn't mean a lot to me, since I have heard before that most of the EU is like that anyway, and he obviously hasn't even read any of it, nor does he seem to particularly care what happens in it as long as certain sacred cows are not violated.

I see you already conceded that point but it has to be stressed once again that the 3D Clone Wars series is one of Lucas' pet projects. Events happening within that series are perfectly valid canon, including all its numerous examples of presenting hi-tech and science as mostly being instruments of bad people.

To drive the point home, consider who the most heroic faction in the Warsverse are, the Jedi. Battlemages who rely mostly on their magic rather than gadgets and who approach the grand unifying energy field of their universe, the Force, from mostly a mystical angle to the point of anthropomorphizing it shamelessly. Meanwhile everyone approaching said energy field from a more scientific POV is firmly in the bad guy camp, like Thrawn or Galak Fyarr. Isn't that evidence enough for Wars' anti-science bias?

[Baffalo]

So, being a bunch of racist pricks that treat their sentient creations like cattle is supposed to make them look better? What kind of world do you live in?

I never said it made them look better, I'm just trying to describe their behavior. That's the vibe I always got from them.

If you had seen any episode of Clone Wars and the amount of humanization even the battledroids get to the point of acting visibly depressed when oodles of them are about to be senselessly wasted and yet that fact is never acknowledged within the series by anyone, including the heroes, you'd be changing your tune quickly. Machines, no matter how self-aware -> fair play for everyone in the Warsverse. R2 is the only droid who gets any special consideration. None other does, including 3P0 who Padme at one point sends directly into a line of fire to lure some probe droids out and then chuckles at his distress.

C3PO is a protocol droid, not a battle droid, so sending him out into a fight and causing him to whine like a toy is meant to be funny for children. That's the entire point of the scene. Sure, making the battle droids look depressed is fine for humanization, but remember that they're ultimately just machines and know they were built for this purpose and given intelligence to carry out their orders. They may not like their lot in life but they know they were built for war and that to survive, they must fight and win.

Just your average arms-dealers who sell their deadly toys to the highest bidder, eh? Nope, definitely nothing sleazy about that sort of people, not at all [/sarcasm].

Hate to burst your little bubble here but last I checked, if you make good weapons of war and can sell them to the highest bidder, you don't need to be sleezy or downright evil. Do you think the people who place bids for modern military projects such as Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Motors, etc are all sleezy because they build weapons? No.

I see you already conceded that point but it has to be stressed once again that the 3D Clone Wars series is one of Lucas' pet projects. Events happening within that series are perfectly valid canon, including all its numerous examples of presenting hi-tech and science as mostly being instruments of bad people.

To drive the point home, consider who the most heroic faction in the Warsverse are, the Jedi. Battlemages who rely mostly on their magic rather than gadgets and who approach the grand unifying energy field of their universe, the Force, from mostly a mystical angle to the point of anthropomorphizing it shamelessly. Meanwhile everyone approaching said energy field from a more scientific POV is firmly in the bad guy camp, like Thrawn or Galak Fyarr. Isn't that evidence enough for Wars' anti-science bias?

I don't think so. It's more akin to anti-industrialization than anti-science because Jedi are artisans whose craft is the Force. They bend it, shape it, manipulate it to their will yet also are manipulated and shaped by it in turn. The brash young padawan seeks to gain better control, the Knight uses it as a tool quite handily, and the Master knows how to use the least effort to get the most gain. It's similar to the apprentice, journeyman, master stage of our history during the middle ages, when guilds would be set up to practice a craft. Thrawn and the like want to study the Force and gain mastery over it without themselves knowing how to use it naturally. If you can study this phenomena and then make it usable for the general public, the Jedi are no longer relevant. Sure, a Knight or Master might have better control, but if they're going up against an entire army wielding the Force, they know they're done for.

[Metahive]

Could a mod passing by please delete my double post above? Thank you.

I never said it made them look better, I'm just trying to describe their behavior. That's the vibe I always got from them.

A pointless reply then.

C3PO is a protocol droid, not a battle droid, so sending him out into a fight and causing him to whine like a toy is meant to be funny for children.

That's making my point for me, Star Wars depicts violence against sentient beings as funny as long as they are made of screws and bolts instead of proper flesh and blood. Would have Padme done the same if 3P0 had been a human or alien servant instead? Would you still think it'd be funny if she had sent a Twi'lek, Sullustan or especially a human into a firefight and then thrown a grenade at his feet?

Side note: it's funny that 3P0 somehow survived the explosion mostly unharmed whereas the military-grade droids were utterly annihilated.

That's the entire point of the scene. Sure, making the battle droids look depressed is fine for humanization, but remember that they're ultimately just machines and know they were built for this purpose and given intelligence to carry out their orders. They may not like their lot in life but they know they were built for war and that to survive, they must fight and win.

It's pointless and unnecessarily cruel to program them that way. That's the point. It's like creating a toaster that cries in pain every time he's heated up. It's pure malice, I can't call it anything else.

And it's goddamn disturbing.

Hate to burst your little bubble here but last I checked, if you make good weapons of war and can sell them to the highest bidder, you don't need to be sleezy or downright evil. Do you think the people who place bids for modern military projects such as Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Motors, etc are all sleezy because they build weapons? No.

Yes, yes they are. Arms dealers rank third behind drug pushers and used-car salesmen on the sleazebag scale. Some would even put them first since they're the one's enabling shitbag nations like KSA or Bahrain to squash popular uprisings against their tyrannical ruling class.

Hate to burst your bubble here, buddy, but those people are commonly not considered to be an honorable lot.

I don't think so. It's more akin to anti-industrialization than anti-science because Jedi are artisans whose craft is the Force. They bend it, shape it, manipulate it to their will yet also are manipulated and shaped by it in turn. The brash young padawan seeks to gain better control, the Knight uses it as a tool quite handily, and the Master knows how to use the least effort to get the most gain. It's similar to the apprentice, journeyman, master stage of our history during the middle ages, when guilds would be set up to practice a craft. Thrawn and the like want to study the Force and gain mastery over it without themselves knowing how to use it naturally. If you can study this phenomena and then make it usable for the general public, the Jedi are no longer relevant. Sure, a Knight or Master might have better control, but if they're going up against an entire army wielding the Force, they know they're done for.

True, only the mystical people with the correct birthright may use it, all the people without that birthright who want it anyway and therefore try to harness it with tech instead of mysticism are evil.

How about you actually address this argument instead of...whatever you thought you were addressing?

[Enigma]

You know, after reading a Cracked article regarding space lightning that is half as much longer than this galaxy and a body of water coming from a black hole that is so huge that it could easily snuff out the Sun, I find that the water blob in Voy isn't so farfetched after all.

[TK-984]

Because if you ask the scientific community what their favorite show was growing up, the chance that you'll hear "Star Trek" is pretty high.