MPs to vote on calling a referendum for Britain to leave EU

[Dr Roberts]

Read the article here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15354203
There will be 3 options if the vote for a referendum is positive.

Stay in the EU under same conditions.
Stay in Eu but change britains membership conditions.
Leave the EU.

Personally I am a supporter of One Europe as a kind of United States of Europe but I agree things need to be changed which is why I would go option 2. What do you guys think?

[Darth Tanner]

Actually the article says MPs are going to discuss whether a vote should take place to allow a referendum, ie nothing will happen. This is a debate prior to the idea of a referendum that is specifically not binding on the government to act on. The best these MPs are hoping for is to have some news coverage that embarrasses Cameron for being a hypocritical twat.

Ultimately none of the main political parties support leaving the EU so there isn’t a chance in hell it would go to a referendum where the generally anti EU press and public would result in a hard campaign or even the dreaded ‘wrong result’. The Tories might like to moan and bitch about the EU to pander to the daily mail brigade but their just as pro EU as all the other career politicians within the system.

As to the general idea I would support renegotiating some of the elements of the EU, common fisheries and the Europe wide arrest warrant for example but ultimately what have we got to negotiate with and under what basis could we even renegotiate signed treaties? I doubt it’s a simple as threatening to throw our toys out the pram as we would be slitting our throats to leave the EU altogether at this stage so the EU can simply call our bluff if we start moaning about anything that doesn’t favor us as much as we'd want.

[Thanas]

If Britain were to leave the EU, it would solve a lot of problems the EU has and would speed up integration. So if I were to look for the goal of a EU superstate with a real constitution, civil liberties protection etc., I would hope Number 3 would come to pass.

2 is just a lot of trouble and renegotiating which will lead to more British bitching.

#1 is what I hope for.

IMO #1 is the sane choice, 3 is what people wishing for a superstate dominated by the French/Germans would pray for and #2 is the troublemaker choice.

[Iroscato]

So. They're going to talk about holding a vote to allow another vote to be held on an issue that will, as far as my horrendously lacking knowledge of economics can tell, make little difference economically (we're boned six ways to sunday EU membership or not)?

Reminds me of someone's sig about Obama wanting to clear the snow...

[Purple]

So if I understand Thanas right #1 is what we should hope for, #3 what we should dream about but if at all possible avoid actually getting and #2 is the meh option that just sucks but ain't cool in its suckines like #3?

[evilsoup]

Pfft, the tories are going to get whipped into voting against this.

Man, I'm not sure how to feel about that. On the one hand, I wouldn't want to risk Britain leaving the EU (I'm pretty sure more people support the EU than are against it - but the anti-EU lot are generally more passionate, and might actually turn out to vote in enough numbers in a referendum); but on the other hand, it does seem like a bit of a betrayal of the spirit of the whole petition thing (which I support).

[Thanas]

So if I understand Thanas right #1 is what we should hope for, #3 what we should dream about but if at all possible avoid actually getting and #2 is the meh option that just sucks but ain't cool in its suckines like #3?

Yeah...for all I gripe about the Brits in the EU I do not want them to leave, considering they do provide a necessary counterweight to Germany and France. Germany has tried to get more influence in Eastern Europe while France under Sarkozy has tried to do the same in the south of Europe (obviously with rather bad results). If Britain leaves, there would be several options for a new balance of power:

- France and Germany dominating everybody else (need I illustrate why this is not necessarily a good thing?)
- Europe splitting into two camps, with Northern/Eastern Europe playing the German route and Southern Europe the French route. Incidentally, that also leads to two political philosophies clashing and a lot of trouble (Poland would be the wildcard here and depending on who is premier might go either way). This would also not be a good thing, for the reason that the EU was founded specifically to contain Germany and to a lesser degree France from dominating parts of Europe
- None of it and the EU continues as before.

I don't want the EU to have to face the risk of (3) and don't like the other options. Sure, the brits are infuriating with their refusal to go along even with sensible projects, but they are one of the few nations with enough clout to go up against Germany and France. Smaller nations cannot do so, see for example the recent Finnish situation regarding the bailouts (where the fins were placated for nebulous guarantees that are pretty much worthless in the event Greece goes under anyways) or the slowak vote (where outside pressure caused the slowaks to sacrifice a government over the bailout to do the bidding of the more powerful nations).

[evilsoup]

...but does the UK actually do anything, apart from get ourselves exceptions to EU treaties? Certainly, we are a potential counterweight to Germany and France, but that's pretty meaningless if we don't actually take part.

[Thanas]

It provides a counterweight just by getting exceptions and objecting to things, like the new constitution etc. Yeah, sometimes they make no sense but it still guarantees some kind of dialogue is held where the pro-EU side has to justify their initiatives and explain why they are a good thing.

[Teebs]

...but does the UK actually do anything, apart from get ourselves exceptions to EU treaties? Certainly, we are a potential counterweight to Germany and France, but that's pretty meaningless if we don't actually take part.

It's probably worth noting too that if the UK is contributing constructively then you don't hear about it, because "countries work together to pass sensible, if dull policy" is not the kind of thing that sells newspapers.

[Purple]

- France and Germany dominating everybody else (need I illustrate why this is not necessarily a good thing?)

Just for the sake of argument lets say that you have.

[Sephirius]

Frankly, I hope they do leave, and that the EU crashes and burns hard. Until the EU leaders are democratically elected like those of the countries they are purported to serve, I see no point in its continued existence.

[Thanas]

- France and Germany dominating everybody else (need I illustrate why this is not necessarily a good thing?)

Just for the sake of argument lets say that you have.

Because they can just ride roughshod over everybody else?

[Darth Raptor]

Europe splitting into two camps, with Northern/Eastern Europe playing the German route and Southern Europe the French route. Incidentally, that also leads to two political philosophies clashing and a lot of trouble.

On the political philosophies clashing, could you elaborate on that?

[Bakustra]

Frankly, I hope they do leave, and that the EU crashes and burns hard. Until the EU leaders are democratically elected like those of the countries they are purported to serve, I see no point in its continued existence.

Yes, the EU is indeed a criminal and unrepresentative system. Please do some research before making ignorant statements in the future. Thanks in advance!

[Thanas]

Just look at the current crisis. Germany is more in line with scandinavian countries on budget philosophies and also has an export-oriented economy. France meanwhile is a net importer, has a different political system and has had its strategic goals always centered on a small Germany and strong ties with the south.

[Sephirius]

Frankly, I hope they do leave, and that the EU crashes and burns hard. Until the EU leaders are democratically elected like those of the countries they are purported to serve, I see no point in its continued existence.

Yes, the EU is indeed a criminal and unrepresentative system. Please do some research before making ignorant statements in the future. Thanks in advance!

Let me ask you this, then, assuming you are a member of the EU, did you vote for Van Rompuy to be your leader and make political and economic decisions on your behalf? Or Barrosso? Or have you been able to vote on any of the decisions they made at all?

[Thanas]

Do you know that in some democracies you vote for people who then vote on who gets to be the leader?

(If you regard that as undemocratic you might just as well write Germany off as undemocractic as well).

[Zaune]

Just look at the current crisis. Germany is more in line with scandinavian countries on budget philosophies and also has an export-oriented economy. France meanwhile is a net importer, has a different political system and has had its strategic goals always centered on a small Germany and strong ties with the south.

I'm not exactly sure how Britain is supposed to act as a counterweight to either country, or both. For one thing, the United Kingdom may not still exist as a political entity for much longer. It doesn't seem to have garnered much attention abroad, but Scotland is about ready to make a push for independence, and Wales may not be far behind if the Tories remain bound and determined to run the country like a business in liquidation. At best, we'll be three separate countries with different economies and political agendas and little historical reason to back one another up. At worst... well, let's just say we'd be a pit preoccupied with our internal affairs for many years to come.

And in any case, who is going to take us seriously wihen we're in only marginally better fiscal shape than Greece or Ireland? We've papered over the cracks somewhat in the short to medium term but unemployment is still hovering close to 10%, and the contraction of the public sector is not helping.

[Bakustra]

Let me ask you this, then, assuming you are a member of the EU, did you vote for Van Rompuy to be your leader and make political and economic decisions on your behalf? Or Barrosso? Or have you been able to vote on any of the decisions they made at all?

Do you vote on any of the bills that are presented before the US Congress? Did you vote for Nancy Pelosi/John Boehner to be Speaker of the House specifically? Within a parliamentary system, what happens is that the elected legislature chooses a head of government, who then serves with the consent of the legislature. That is, broadly, how the Presidency of the European Commission and the European Parliament work (in actual practice, it's closer to the French hybrid/semi-presidential system, where an outside body chooses the initial head of government, but they still serve at the consent of the legislature). The European Council, on the other hand, consists of the democratically elected heads of government of the EU, and the democratically-elected President of the European Commission, who pick the President of the European Council. What you are advocating is direct democracy, which is very scarce outside of small municipalities.

[Skgoa]

Do you know that in some democracies you vote for people who then vote on who gets to be the leader?

(If you regard that as undemocratic you might just as well write Germany off as undemocractic as well).

Minor nitpick: our highest court has ruled that we ARE undemocratic.

[atg]

It doesn't seem to have garnered much attention abroad, but Scotland is about ready to make a push for independence,

Would you be able to provide any links about this? I remember hearing a bit of rumbling about it a few months ago but that was dismissed as a never-would-happen thing.

[Zaune]

It doesn't seem to have garnered much attention abroad, but Scotland is about ready to make a push for independence,

Would you be able to provide any links about this? I remember hearing a bit of rumbling about it a few months ago but that was dismissed as a never-would-happen thing.

No recent ones unfortunately, as the national ones ran out of interesting things to say about the elections for the Scottish Parliament within 24 hours of the results being received, but I can assure you it was some way beyond "a bit of rumbling"; the Scottish Nationalist Party won an absolute majority for the first time in the Scottish Parliament's history, while the Conservatives were completely obliterated. I daresay that victory owed more to the fact that they and Plaid Cymru (their Welsh equivalents) are the only credible centre-left parties the UK has these days, of course, but I can't imagine a lot of people who voted for the SNP would vote No in any referendum they manage to squeeze out of Westminster.

[Thanas]

Do you know that in some democracies you vote for people who then vote on who gets to be the leader?

(If you regard that as undemocratic you might just as well write Germany off as undemocractic as well).

Minor nitpick: our highest court has ruled that we ARE undemocratic.

Bullcrap.

[Phantasee]

Frankly, I hope they do leave, and that the EU crashes and burns hard. Until the EU leaders are democratically elected like those of the countries they are purported to serve, I see no point in its continued existence.

Yes, the EU is indeed a criminal and unrepresentative system. Please do some research before making ignorant statements in the future. Thanks in advance!

Let me ask you this, then, assuming you are a member of the EU, did you vote for Van Rompuy to be your leader and make political and economic decisions on your behalf? Or Barrosso? Or have you been able to vote on any of the decisions they made at all?

Did you vote for Stephen Harper? Unless you lived in Calgary Southwest and were one of the 42 998 people in that riding who actually voted for him, you couldn't have.

Is Canada undemocratic, now?