Explaination of Borg Shield adaptation.

[Connor MacLeod]

Can someone explain how a holographic tommygun equates as an "energy weapon" per se? I don't see how one follows from the other.

Secondly, why do we assume Leia's arm was even hit? I don't recall human flesh ever producing sparks - my arm certainly didn't shoot sparks out when it suffered a burn recently.

[Stofsk]

Can someone explain how a holographic tommygun equates as an "energy weapon" per se? I don't see how one follows from the other.

Well it seems a bit weird that Picard could order a tommygun and order the holodeck safeties to be switched off (I thought that required the authorisation of two officers :V) and then it would fire actual, real bullets.

OF COURSE, it is also pretty weird that holographic bullets would hurt anyone.

but i really hate first contact and that scene is just utterly horrible in how contrived it is

Secondly, why do we assume Leia's arm was even hit? I don't recall human flesh ever producing sparks - my arm certainly didn't shoot sparks out when it suffered a burn recently.

Yeah but were you shot by a Stormtrooper standard-issue E11 blaster rifle?

Really Connor, I just rewatched that scene and I can't see how someone can argue that Leia wasn't shot in the arm. Even if it was a glancing shot with part of it having hit the bunker wall (thus causing the sparks), you can clearly see a burn patch on her sleeve which is even on fire.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well it seems a bit weird that Picard could order a tommygun and order the holodeck safeties to be switched off (I thought that required the authorisation of two officers :V) and then it would fire actual, real bullets.

OF COURSE, it is also pretty weird that holographic bullets would hurt anyone.

but i really hate first contact and that scene is just utterly horrible in how contrived it is

I'm not disputing they are holograms. I believe even Picard says they are. I am disputing the notion that hologram = energy weapon. Hell, we've seen people shot in holodecks at least twice (Fistfull of Datas and the Big Goodbye) - they don't act like they got hit by an energy weapon.

Really Connor, I just rewatched that scene and I can't see how someone can argue that Leia wasn't shot in the arm. Even if it was a glancing shot with part of it having hit the bunker wall (thus causing the sparks), you can clearly see a burn patch on her sleeve which is even on fire.

We've seen indirect hits injure/kill before (The prison breakout in ANH - one of the guards in the tunnel was shot and the bolt didn't come even close to hitting him, yet he was taken out. Besides I can point to far more other examples of blasters severely burning people (Greedo in ANH, Grievous in ROTS, Ki-Adi-Mundi, who had a blaster shot burn a hole straight through his torso during Order 66, or Aalya Secura who was shot repeatedly in the back and had sizable burns on her back at that. I can also just point to the subsequent fact they tried to capture Han and Leia alive (you don't take hostages by killshots)

[Connor MacLeod]

In regards to the OP, here's a thought:

Perhaps Borg personnel shields are incredibly energy-intensive and quite inefficient to keep active for any length of time. So when they talk about 'adaptation to frequencies', what they're really talking about is a measurable signal the phaser gives off right as it fires the beam. Basically 'adaptation' means the Borg can now identify that signal, so whenever a phaser goes off their computers can identify it and raise their shields a fraction of a second before it hits them, then lower them again a fraction of a second later, saving energy.

This also explains why modulating frequencies is so effective: A new signal means the computer has to do a few more test runs before it can add it to the library and start raising shields in reaction to it.

Modulating might also have something to do with the speed of the attack, reaction times, and time to activate the defense. Depending on range and speed of the attack, borg defenses might not have enough time to "switch on" to deflect them. Alternately, they may only activate on the initial strike of the weapon on target (deflecting away most of the energy, and the portion that strikes is not powerful enough to cause damage.) much like the "Vorlon Defense system" on the White Stars from Babylon 5 - any attack that can "out-react" the Borg defences and dump in enough energy before the defense can activate (or activate to full capacity) could injure or kill.

There's also the fact the shields do not appear to be fully opaque or to completely block all EM frequencies, so certain kinds of lasers quit eprobably could penetrate (I've never heard of a personal Borg Cloaking device, anyhow.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Crateria's question is pretty revealing isn't it? 'Why don't people announce their allegiance' - very cliquish mentality. This leads to us vs them attitudes towards debating, where it's all about winning and using the rules to rig the game. There are actually interesting scenarios that can be debated but they get overlooked or even sabotaged by the guys who jump in and cite 200 GT turbolazors = ARGUMENT OVER I WIN OK

My Alleigance is to 40K. Both the Empire and the Federation will be drowned in the blood of filthy xenos-lovers. And then their planets will be bombed to ashes.

[Imperial528]

That doesn't make sense. The reason the rest of the shots are useless against the Borg is because the drones raise their shields. I don't see how it has anything to do with the shield only being good against that frequency.

If they learn to raise their shields to block blaster bolts, then the blaster needs to make it's way through the shield somehow. Federation phasers do this by shifting their frequency. Blasters will probably have to gang up on it to overpower it via brute force.

I was thinking in terms of starship shielding, actually, since I don't believe that infantry force will be nearly as decisive as the ability of starships to destroy the enemy. Even if Borg board a vessel, once the cube or sphere is destroyed then the Borg forces on board suddenly are much easier to deal with.

Although I wonder, what if shifting between different modes of operation would make a difference? Say you fire a standard kill blast, then a stun blast, then a kill blast. Would the drone readjust to it every time or would it learn to simply block both?

Also, since the holographic bullets have been brought up, here are my thoughts on them:

What if the Borg simply do not perceive them as a threat? When the bullets are fired at the drones and they enter their detection range they will detect the force field and the photons, and I would not be suprised if they conclude it is an energy weapon. Then when it hits the drone it does damage the way a kinetic weapon would, and the drones may simply not connect the two events, because it expected an DEW attacked from a weapon that looked like it was a DEW device but instead a KEW attack happens. It's very possible that the drones by themselves don't know how to deal with that WRT shielding, so they instead respond just by attacking the person(s) shooting at them. Especially since unlike an actual gun, the holographic bullet will not look the same to internal sensors, it may not even be there once it lodges inside the drone. Heck, the drones may all have been killed by the time they have enough data to realize just what is occurring.

It's very possible that if it detected a solid bullet and then detected a bullet wound that the drones would identify it as a threat, since the information they are receiving is consistent.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

The reactive-shield adaptation might also explain Borg zombie-rushes: While Borg 'culture' may not share the same mindset as most other sentient beings, it's possible they could understand and take advantage of psychological warfare: Sacrificing a few of their own to attune their shields and then moving slowly and seemingly invincibly forward could be remarkably effective at breaking enemy morale and possibly lead to panic on the front lines which results in formations breaking and lost ground. If Borg 'culture' actually exists on an individual level, those who take the initial blasts may be indoctrinated with the belief that their death serves a greater cause, and they will live on in a fashion as their remaining usable bits are incorporated into new Borg. People have died for stupider causes in real life.

[Crateria]

As pro-trek as he is, even Adam would readily concede that the Empire would win a war against the Federation simply because the former has an overwhelming advantage in numbers and industrial capacity.

If the ST folks can find it though, they might be able to turn the tables. In Deep Space Nine, when facing an imminent invasion through a wormhole from a force with superior numbers.... the Federation planned and attempted to technobabble the wormhole out of existence.

It was only the efforts of an enemy spy sabotaging the plan that stopped it.


Then, though, when they had a second chance, they mined it. When that failed, they prayed to god to keep the enemy out.

And since Sisko and these gods had a rapport going; the prophets had helped him in the past, they decided to take that help to the next level. (BTW, a lot of people call this a deus ex machina, but I don't really agree, because the prophet arc had been built up slowly since the show's first episode. The "Sacrifice of Angels" action is a logical progression in that storyline.)


A lot of vs threads assume the assistance of gods is right out, but that's ignoring that Federation folks have canonically asked for and received assistance from them in the past, more than once! Indeed, they've gotten help from them arguably once without asking too, in Q Who?.

Star Wars has their magic Force powers. Star Trek has friends in high places.

And there lies your problem. The Q and the Prophets are essentially deus ex machinas who can solve any problem much of the time. If we allowed them to intervene there would no way to win for the Empire because all Q would have to do is push the Imp fleet into a huge sun or a black hole or something. The Force has been shown to have limits on its users abilities.

[Crateria]

They can't be terrified of being the recipients of a Imperial Smackdown if Wong and the others' reasoning is BS.

Being right doesn't mean you can't have fear, or other reasons to remain silent.

You might not want to antagonize people you generally like.

You might fear losing. (A skilled debater can win from an inferior position; I've seen creationists wipe the floor with people in debates.)

You might fear the other guy pulling an appeal to force on you.

You might just not want to waste the time on this. A lot of posts take me hours to write up, especially if I want to fact check it.

You might not be completely convinced of your ability to defend it; you can believe in an argument without knowing how to articulate why.

You might simply feel that you have nothing constructive to add; that other posters have already covered the points.


And I'm sure there's more. In general, you shouldn't attribute anything to someone remaining silent. It's not an admission of guilt.

There are far too many threads in SW VS ST to read. I simply don't have all the time in the world.

I just wish there was some big thread that showed the reasons why people believe that the fight would be more even rather than the Fedstomp that the main site says it would be.

[Cesario]

As pro-trek as he is, even Adam would readily concede that the Empire would win a war against the Federation simply because the former has an overwhelming advantage in numbers and industrial capacity.

If the ST folks can find it though, they might be able to turn the tables. In Deep Space Nine, when facing an imminent invasion through a wormhole from a force with superior numbers.... the Federation planned and attempted to technobabble the wormhole out of existence.

It was only the efforts of an enemy spy sabotaging the plan that stopped it.


Then, though, when they had a second chance, they mined it. When that failed, they prayed to god to keep the enemy out.

And since Sisko and these gods had a rapport going; the prophets had helped him in the past, they decided to take that help to the next level. (BTW, a lot of people call this a deus ex machina, but I don't really agree, because the prophet arc had been built up slowly since the show's first episode. The "Sacrifice of Angels" action is a logical progression in that storyline.)


A lot of vs threads assume the assistance of gods is right out, but that's ignoring that Federation folks have canonically asked for and received assistance from them in the past, more than once! Indeed, they've gotten help from them arguably once without asking too, in Q Who?.

Star Wars has their magic Force powers. Star Trek has friends in high places.

And there lies your problem. The Q and the Prophets are essentially deus ex machinas who can solve any problem much of the time. If we allowed them to intervene there would no way to win for the Empire because all Q would have to do is push the Imp fleet into a huge sun or a black hole or something. The Force has been shown to have limits on its users abilities.

Eh, I'm personally more annoyed by the Empire's fiat immunity to the terrain threat of godlike aliens possibly living on planets they decide to BDZ.

That's a major issue of the Milky Way terrain, and the Empire's military doctrine is custom designed to piss them off. It's also a terrain feature that the Federation has successfully navigated and is possibly their single greatest advantage when fighting on their home field.

(Not to mention, it's a feature that they had to keep in mind when designing their own military doctrine, and thus made trade-offs to deal with, which by fiat the Empire won't have to make.)

Forget Q and the Prophets intervening. It's the Dowd and the Organians you really need to concern yourself with.

[Bakustra]

We really don't have much of a clue as to how the Empire might act when conquering regions of the Milky Way. The majority of their military strength was devoted to suppression efforts. Canvassing the entire EU gives only a handful of instances where they set out on missions of conquest, all of which were based around areas already known to the galaxy at large. So their behavior would be hard to predict- they simply may not end up doing anything much to annoy most superbeings beyond losing the odd Star Destroyer to Q tests and the like. On the other hand, they may seek to subjugate everybody. It's hard to predict that sort of thing, which is why people like to pretend it doesn't exist.

[Cesario]

We really don't have much of a clue as to how the Empire might act when conquering regions of the Milky Way. The majority of their military strength was devoted to suppression efforts. Canvassing the entire EU gives only a handful of instances where they set out on missions of conquest, all of which were based around areas already known to the galaxy at large. So their behavior would be hard to predict- they simply may not end up doing anything much to annoy most superbeings beyond losing the odd Star Destroyer to Q tests and the like. On the other hand, they may seek to subjugate everybody. It's hard to predict that sort of thing, which is why people like to pretend it doesn't exist.

Trouble is, we know that for a while there were Q living on Earth. Q who, as Q noted, were unable to resist the temptation to use their powers.

The Dowd who wiped out the Husnok was living on an earth colony.

You don't have to blow up worlds completely at random to catch an omnipotent in the crossfire.

Also, you did notice that those Q tests were explicitly stated as being about the fate of the entire human race, right? You fail one of those, it isn't just your ship you lose.

[Stofsk]

Something that always bothered me about those Q Tests or Trial By Omnipotent Beings is why aren't the klingons or romulans ever put on trial either?

The organians being the only exception. Also, something must have happened to the organians after TOS because they were never mentioned again and they never intervened in any interstellar conflict - which, aside from them, the metrons, and MAYBE Q who only intervened when Picard asked him to, few of these godbeings really tend to get involved. The metrons for example only got involved when the Enterprise and the gorn ship it was pursuing passed close to their home system. The thasians only intervened when they realised Charlie wasn't among them and was causing havoc on the Enterprise. The Prophets only got involved when Sisko made his plea to them (in a really contrived manner it must be said).

I'm not saying any one of these godbeings couldn't get involved, but I am saying there's a good argumentative reason why they wouldn't. Hell the organians themselves expressed their own disgust at themselves for intervening. It was implied that they had their own version of the Prime Directive they were following. Since they never intervened much later, either something must have happened to them or they decided they were done sticking their noses into other people's business.

[Crateria]

Something that always bothered me about those Q Tests or Trial By Omnipotent Beings is why aren't the klingons or romulans ever put on trial either?

The organians being the only exception. Also, something must have happened to the organians after TOS because they were never mentioned again and they never intervened in any interstellar conflict - which, aside from them, the metrons, and MAYBE Q who only intervened when Picard asked him to, few of these godbeings really tend to get involved. The metrons for example only got involved when the Enterprise and the gorn ship it was pursuing passed close to their home system. The thasians only intervened when they realised Charlie wasn't among them and was causing havoc on the Enterprise. The Prophets only got involved when Sisko made his plea to them (in a really contrived manner it must be said).

I'm not saying any one of these godbeings couldn't get involved, but I am saying there's a good argumentative reason why they wouldn't. Hell the organians themselves expressed their own disgust at themselves for intervening. It was implied that they had their own version of the Prime Directive they were following. Since they never intervened much later, either something must have happened to them or they decided they were done sticking their noses into other people's business.

Becuz the Romulans and Klingons are all evil and can never evolve to the stars like HUMANITY FOR TEH WINNORZ. Therefore they don't even try.

But seriously IDK.

[Cesario]

My assumption is that the Romulans and Klingons are being tested. It's just happening offscreen, and their equivalent of the Enterprise is doing a bang-up job keeping their asses out of a fire. After all, the Romulans and Klingons aren't evil. They're just different. They're similar enough to the Federation to have enemy-mine moments and even alliances going.

Alternately, the Romulans and Klingons aren't getting explicitly tested because they're lower tech than the Federation, and thus are further away from potentially being groomed to join the omnipotents' club. After all, Starfleet is able to fight off the Romulan and Klingon dedicated warships using their astrological survey/cruise ships.

[Bakustra]

We really don't have much of a clue as to how the Empire might act when conquering regions of the Milky Way. The majority of their military strength was devoted to suppression efforts. Canvassing the entire EU gives only a handful of instances where they set out on missions of conquest, all of which were based around areas already known to the galaxy at large. So their behavior would be hard to predict- they simply may not end up doing anything much to annoy most superbeings beyond losing the odd Star Destroyer to Q tests and the like. On the other hand, they may seek to subjugate everybody. It's hard to predict that sort of thing, which is why people like to pretend it doesn't exist.

Trouble is, we know that for a while there were Q living on Earth. Q who, as Q noted, were unable to resist the temptation to use their powers.

The Dowd who wiped out the Husnok was living on an earth colony.

You don't have to blow up worlds completely at random to catch an omnipotent in the crossfire.

Also, you did notice that those Q tests were explicitly stated as being about the fate of the entire human race, right? You fail one of those, it isn't just your ship you lose.

That's what Q says, but then again, he also claims to be omnipotent too, and that's pretty clearly not the case unless we borrow heavily from Saint Augustine to explain him.

In general, though, we don't really know enough about how the Empire would react to a new galaxy to predict whether they would even try to conquer by violence, let alone act brutally enough to end up killing or hurting superbeings by accident! In the films, they blew up Alderaan, but they didn't bother to do anything about the Ewoks building siege engines and traps outside their back door and in their patrol regions.

[Cesario]

We have Q statements that they aren't omnipotent. The problem is that "not omnipotent" can actually still be pretty damn powerful. From the prospective of you, or I, or Emperor Palpetine, there's no meaningful difference between actual omnipotence and what Q has going on.

As to the Empire's likely behavior, it seems to me that if they're in the habit of ignoring primitive savages and leaving themselves vulnerable due to overconfidence, then if the power gap really is half as significant as is suggested by the 200 GW TURBOLASERS!!! crowd, then they might just do the exact same thing to the Federation. Ignore them and leave themselves vulnerable.

[Crateria]

As to the Empire's likely behavior, it seems to me that if they're in the habit of ignoring primitive savages and leaving themselves vulnerable due to overconfidence, then if the power gap really is half as significant as is suggested by the 200 GW TURBOLASERS!!! crowd, then they might just do the exact same thing to the Federation. Ignore them and leave themselves vulnerable.

I don't think they knew about the Ewoks. Even if they did, the Ewoks didn't have stuff like phasers or ships of their own. They would see the Feds as a bigger threat than a band of primitives like the Ewoks who were militarily behind almost everyone in the Galaxy.

Who do you see as a bigger threat: A bunch of stick wielding teddy bears or guys who at least have a more threating apperance, imitating your empire in a small but noticeable way?

[Bakustra]

We have Q statements that they aren't omnipotent. The problem is that "not omnipotent" can actually still be pretty damn powerful. From the prospective of you, or I, or Emperor Palpetine, there's no meaningful difference between actual omnipotence and what Q has going on.

As to the Empire's likely behavior, it seems to me that if they're in the habit of ignoring primitive savages and leaving themselves vulnerable due to overconfidence, then if the power gap really is half as significant as is suggested by the 200 GW TURBOLASERS!!! crowd, then they might just do the exact same thing to the Federation. Ignore them and leave themselves vulnerable.

But that raises the question of why the Federation would make the first move towards hostilities then. That doesn't seem like a very intelligent move. And if they're more on par (or if the gap is more in industry than in weapons power), then there's a real question as to whether the Empire would invade at all, since it would cost them much more than it would gain them.

[Cesario]

Crateria:

Ah, but per your side's consistent arguments, the Federation is also nothing more than a band of primitives who are militarily behind almost everyone in the Star Wars galaxy.

Also, it's hard to see the threat in a group who's opening hail, prior to even establishing that you can understand the words they are saying, are "Would you be interested in a treaty of mutual nonagression?" (TNG: Darmok)

Bakustra:

I imagine it might have something to do with the despirate pleas for aid coming from the opressed masses within the Empire's borders. That ragtag group of heroes and terrorists who've been trying to free themselves from Palpetine's iron grasp.

But of course, the Federation would never sell weapons to freedom fighters in another empire. Officially.

[Crateria]

1) No gods. The reason you gave is that it means you can't possibly win. You could apply that rule to anything in the debate. I sympathize with that - curbstomps are boring to talk about - but it's often not applied for to that end. It's more often used to make the curbstomp wider; to stack the deck against one side, not to even things out.

Possible, but if one guy can end each side before the fight even begins, then there's no point in discussing this stuff. The Death Star cannot conquer ST alone. It would need stuff like paths set for it by probes, presumably.

OK, so at least the Force has limits on what it does. I'd argue that on factual grounds; the writers just make shit up for the Force on a regular basis. But the meta-argument still shows a lack of fairness: we could argue about Q's limits without saying he's right out. Is he willing to help? Can he be stopped? Can he actually make such a big difference?

If they can make shit up about the Force, then why haven't they done stuff like make it enough to destroy a galaxy? Or a universe? Surely it's possible that they could do that. The Force is also apparently not as intervening as Q is.

Time travel is generally under this same category, though Mr. Wong on the main site goes so far as to say it cannot possibly help anyway, which some bullshit about multiple universes, which invalidates the time it is used in a story, has very poor support, and is just irrational in the first place - it's saying we can't trust our senses, since just because you see an effect doesn't mean it's really there because ~another universe~. It also seems to be non-falsifiable; I've asked people before what experiment would prove to them that the multiple universe interpretation is wrong, and never got a solid answer.

What about Parallels? All those EDs popping out of nowhere were from alternate dimensions. At least one of those dimensions could have been created from time travel. It's been done already. Haven't there been studies about how E-Nil by going back into time (as well as stuff like Yesterday's Ent) creating alternate dimensions? Otherwise how would Sela exist?

McCoy created a universe where there was no Feds because of Edith. Yet the Trio still were living. Surely they would have been eliminated unless the Guardian of Forever had an effect. Which was the canon explanation, right?

If you're altered with the universe then you might not be able test it. You might never even know anything changed.

But, let's go back to fairness. The rule is it has to appear more than once, or something. They say Genesis is out because it doesn't (ignoring "Second Sight" DS9, and I'm told there's Genesis plans visible on one of the TNG computer graphics, but I haven't confirmed that myself. appear again.

But the Death Star is in, not only because we see DS2 (which never destroys a planet BTW), but because the industry and knowledge to build it wouldn't have happened alone.

Check this out: http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/My ... Technology

Mr. Wong argues that the Death Star couldn't have existed on it's own; building it happens because society is at that point.

But you can't apply that same logic to Genesis or anything else in ST for that matter, no sir.

In which part was the Genesis device used again? Unless the Fed niceness is so strong in moral character that they wouldn't dare use their powerful weapons against their enemies like the Borg who show no mercy. (while admittedly they might adapt to it) As much as the Feds might not want to do genocide, they run the risk of losing a shitload of guys (and the Federation's existence anyway) if they don't do their best. You know, threat of the week style.


The Empire slipping in through the wormhole first benefits SW, but there's no discussion on how that'd happen. Unlike Starfleet, they don't have people specifically looking for weird shit out there; SW uses hyperspace routes more often than not. Why is the wormhole where they can find it? [/quote] It would make sense to give Trek the home advantage most of the time. The SW Galaxy is a comparatively heavily armed place to the Trek Galaxy.

The Empire is always assumed to know just where to strike, so they hyperspeed advantage can be biggest, but there's very little discussion on just how this happens. "probe droids" sure, but the galaxy is a really big place. Mathematically, the odds of them hitting the heart of the Federation is quite low, and finding routes to move around freely is going to be very time consuming.

The same applies for Trek. They won't have a clear path to the Galaxy Far Far Away. And from what I've read about they do have ships that patrol for weird shit, just not as intensely as the Feds due to them having explored a lot. Also they don't have as many threats.

As for how they discover it, you have to take into account that most readers want more or less action rather than both sides spending years or decades clumsily going around each others universe and walking into some random shit that pwns their fleets. While it might be interesting to do a realistic (by this site's standards) exploration into the others' realms, this would be particularly difficult.

Now, a setup doesn't have to be fair, and it doesn't have to be justified. It's a story, and things move at the speed of plot. But, we should recognize this - is the setup biased? Is that the only possible setup? Do these advantages apply to all setups?

Asking these questions isn't admitting your side is weaker. It's just realizing there's more to conflict and debate than pew pews.

Nobody said anything about pew pews being the truly deciding factor. The EU has a bunch of explanations and extrapolations about the Empire and Star Wars that are canon, no? They help turn the Empire canonically up into an even more force to reckon with.

[Bakustra]

Sure, and that seems far more likely than spontaneously declaring a war that they have little hope to win.

[Crateria]

Sure, and that seems far more likely than spontaneously declaring a war that they have little hope to win.

Are you talking to me?

[Cesario]

Crateria:

Paralells had NOTHING to do with time travel. Not only did the episode not say a damn thing about time travel, but they explicitly scanned for matter from a different "Quantum Reality", and noted that Worf was the only one who was like that. If the Quantum Reality thing had jack shit to do with time travel, they would have also detected everyone who'd ever gone through a time travel event with that scan.

Wong is just wrong about this. *gasp*

As to the Genesis device, when have they had call to use it that they haven't?

The movies explore the political fallout with the Klingons from the Federation demonstrating that capability, and we're dealing with a cold-war metaphore universe. Of course they aren't throwing around doomsday devices in their general wars.

As to the Borg, when have they been in orbit of Borg controlled worlds where detonating the thing would make any sense at all?



Destructionator XIII:

It's also possible that the Federation as a whole might stick with that "internal politics" aspect, while individual members might behave differently. That leads to a "Picard breaks up arms smuggling ring supporting the Maquis to avoid a war with the Cardasians" plot.

[Stofsk]

The Prophets only got involved when Sisko made his plea to them (in a really contrived manner it must be said).

This is a big tangent, but is it really that bad? I watched the episode a couple months ago, and it didn't really bug me. Like I said, if he didn't ask them, that would have bugged me, since it's worth a try given the emissary arc.

In the very first episode we saw that the Prophets could seal the wormhole from passage by anyone, so it's not their capability that bugs me. But why didn't Sisko go into the wormhole from the start and just tell them that 'the Dominion were a bunch of jerks and so can you please kindly deny them passage kthx bye.' It was used as a last-resort, desperation tactic, when really it should have been on the top of his list of things to try.

I'm not saying any one of these godbeings couldn't get involved, but I am saying there's a good argumentative reason why they wouldn't.

Yeah. All I'm getting at here is that it's something that can (and should) be tackled in debate, not rules or assumptions.

I agree. Also, time-travel as well. I mean, it's not like we've NEVER seen the heroes use time-travel to get out of a sticky situation, right? That rule bothers me, because it's one of the biggest advantages Trek has and it's 'invalidated' or whatever just so the other side can perpetuate the whole Wars>Trek aspect of the debate.

My assumption is that the Romulans and Klingons are being tested. It's just happening offscreen, and their equivalent of the Enterprise is doing a bang-up job keeping their asses out of a fire. After all, the Romulans and Klingons aren't evil. They're just different. They're similar enough to the Federation to have enemy-mine moments and even alliances going.

Alternately, the Romulans and Klingons aren't getting explicitly tested because they're lower tech than the Federation, and thus are further away from potentially being groomed to join the omnipotents' club. After all, Starfleet is able to fight off the Romulan and Klingon dedicated warships using their astrological survey/cruise ships.

I agree with the first option, but not the second. The klingons and romulans are generally on par with the Federation and Starfleet. A D'Deridex Warbird is more or less explicitly said to be so with slight variances (like the Enterprise has better engines and I think may have better computers, but firepower is more spread out in arcs while the Warbird has more situated in the front arc). The romulans and klingons also have cloaking technology, something which the Federation doesn't develop and this was remarked by Picard at some stage as being a huge advantage ('The Defector').

Of course the Federation adapts, which is why they developed the tachyon detection grid and graviton sensors seem to vaguely track cloaked vessels according to that romulan commander in 'Face of the Enemy'. Also it's a bit disingenuous to claim that the Federation's survey ships can wtfpwn their adversaries. The Enterprise is the most powerful vessel in Starfleet. It's multirole too, unlike say the Oberth class survey ships, which can get one-shotted by a Bird-of-Prey.