Vorlon Motivation

[Ragnarok]

I love Darkness and Light, but if one admits it as evidence, my stance (they do not have ships massively advanced beyond what's seen in the show) automatically wins, clunk-click. They outright state that the ships used in the war are warships as used by the elder races, and that some of the larger battlecrabs are even piloted by Shadow crews.

Truthfully, i really don't see a problem with that as there's a few ways to reconcile it. The ships are the ones that we see in the show, but Shadow ships do grow and they're probably the younger versions of the ships themselves. Would explain a couple of things as well, especially as to why the Shadows were building up their forces slowly because most of their fleet was destroyed in the previous Shadow War.

From B5Wars, we KNOW that Shadow ships grow from Patrol Ships, to Warships, to Cruisers, to Battlecruisers, to Battleships, which are basically the same shape only have more diffuser tendrils attached and the ability to use more advanced weapons, or even more weapon mounts. We know that these ships take thousands of years to mature to their full potential - something the Shadows literally couldn't afford to do in the present era. So these are probably just accelerated vat grown ships, that though pretty powerful, still have the potential to be more powerful.

Using Darkness and Light, we also know that the Shadows themselves aren't adverse to putting themselves in danger. Are they exceptionally hard to kill? Yes. Are they easier to kill than Vorlons? Definitely. (Vorlons are amazingly redundant, and to fully kill one is a mission and a half from what Darkness and Light shows of their ... "biology"), but Shadows can be killed. They can still reproduce biologically, unlike the Vorlons, which if we take it at face value have had negative population growth since two million years ago.

So would Shadow ships be weaker in the present era since they haven't been grown completely, and probably more numerous as well. To even be able to contend with Vorlon defense systems in their core space, which is what... 13 colonies in the present era (1/1000th of the area they used to cover before The Vigil began) then the Shadows would have to field a huge fleet to contend on even grounds. The Vorlon Defense Systems are impressive.

[Ragnarok]

I know I'm kind of gushing above, but I just really had a fun time reading it. The one they published for some of the races like the Pak Mara, also was well done IMNSHO.

Got to agree, I love that book, and consider it basically personal canon. I really enjoyed the PsiCorps one too, I reccomend you pick it up if you've not. Some of their earlier ones, like the Minbari one, aren't as good, but that's only to be expected.

So do i. Except that i wish they would've covered the effects of the Kirishiac War as well. Its supposed to be a pretty big event in galactic history.

[NecronLord]

Truthfully, i really don't see a problem with that as there's a few ways to reconcile it.

By which we mean make fanon up?

The ships are the ones that we see in the show, but Shadow ships do grow and they're probably the younger versions of the ships themselves.

No one was ever saying they come off as unable to build a bigger battlecrab with a shootier gun. The idea that they have truly godlike technology somewhere, though, is directly contradicted by this material, and that's what we're talking about. They can build a bigger shootier warship, but they can't make something fundamentally more capable than those they use to beat on the Young Races.

Our topic is this:

The weapons the First Ones should be deploying should be as close to magic and uncomprehensible as possible - say blowing up fleets without even entering the system. It should not just seem like upgunned versions of the ships the younger races were fielding.

To use the B5 wars; we're talking about having a warship that would just let you immediately declare victory against an opponent with an entire table full of fleet action scale 'toy' Vorlon ships, or Young Races' ships immediately, and then go home.

[NecronLord]

So do i. Except that i wish they would've covered the effects of the Kirishiac War as well. Its supposed to be a pretty big event in galactic history.

It's also tooth-grittingly bad and tangential at best to the Vorlons' and Shadows' rivalry.

[CaptainChewbacca]

The only real outcome of the Kirishiac war was the decision to spread jump gates all around the galaxy and make sure that races discover hyperspace travel early on in their developments, to promote early interaction between races.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I hate to change the topic, but what other RPG supplements besides Darkness and Light describe the history of the B5 universe or the technology of the ancients? Are any of the fleet source books any good?

[Target2006]

I have two problems with the Vorlon Motivations

1: After reading Darkness and Light and Wars of the Ancients and watching the tv show and reading most of the Technomage books...I still don't understand the Vorlon actions during the show up to Sheridan's attack on Z'Ha'Dum.

The Shadows are murderous evil bastards, but they are not two-faced with their philosophy. Their goal is to spread chaos. And thats what they do. They come out and start wars everywhere.They are honest. They practice what they preach.(mostly). I love the way that the book Darkness and Light show that the Shadows don't even care when they are woken up. They prefer to leave it to circumstance. They are Chaos.

The Vorlons do not practice what they preach. If the Vorlon goal is to spread "Order", should they not have been STOPPING all wars during the last thousand years and acting as the galactic peace-keepers? Should they not have intervened in the Earth-Minbari war and forced a peace? But they don't. They let the Dilgar war happen, the Minbari war, the wars and skirmishs of the Centauri and Narns and the League. Why?

Instead they create telepaths but thats an anti-Shadow action. It's a strategy to directly affect the Shadow ships. Its not an action of Order but of Anti-Shadow. Also it promotes chaos by having only some of the population on Earth being telepaths and causes resentment and fear on Earth.

As regards their impersonation of angels. Its only half-arsed. Why have they not directly forced a religious rule on the other races during the last thousand years. Like the Ori from Stargate. So as to promote Order. They don't. They remain mysterious and forboding. Why? No Order there. Just ...nothing.

Even their question ("Who are You") is designed for personal reflection. It doesn't lead to Order if you ask me. A better question would be "What can you create" or something like that.

They are both bad, but as regards motivation at least the Shadows are not hypocrites

2: After Sheridan's attack on Z'Ha'Dum, the Vorlons go all out with Planet-Killers. This confuses me. When the Shadows were driven from Z'ha'dum last time, was the planet not bombed then? It must have been. Whats the difference between now and then?

In fact, I have to ask, HOW were the Shadows driven/forced into hibernation from Z'Ha'Dum last time? I presume the Vorlons must have joined in to do so? So they would have bombed the planet and attacked cities. Things must have escalated into Shadows and Vorlons directly attacking each other. So why didn't they come out with the Planet-Killers then?

I'm sure they must have hit Z'Ha'Dum with worse then what Sheridan hit it with. Unless the Shadows packed up and left without any siege of Z'Ha'Dum. Which IMO doesn't track with what Delann mentions the whole time, when she says they were "driven" from the planet. I mean were the Vorlons not deemed to have "won" the last war? So surely it would have been Planet-Killer time?

[Stravo]

The thing to remember with the Vorlons or any of the other First Ones is that they tend to take the long view on things. Why didn't they get involved in the Earth Minbari war? Because they needed Valen to be born and created under a spefic set of circumstances to close the circle. No Earth Minbari War = No Sinclar finding his destiny. For them the death of 250,000 humans and near extinction of the human race was a fair price to pay for winning the prior Shadow War and establishing a social order of peace on Minbar as well as the othe rippling effects Valen had on galactic history. The short term chaos in the social order they create with telepaths (and that seems to be limited to humans because other alien species seem to have seamlessly incorporated telepaths into their societies) is balanced out by the long term goal of eliminating the shadows or at the very least curtail and shorten the shadow wars. With a Vorlon its like dealing with an immortal chess master. You think 10 moves ahead and they're thinking what will happen over millennia as a consequence of each of their moves. They gladly take a hit now to pull out a victory ten generations from now.

As to the angel thing some of the sourcebooks like the Minbari sourcebook point out that the Vorlons are actually uncomfortable with religion and using it as a tool for control partly because they are opposed to immitating something they don't believe in (divinity) and they had a bad experience with the Minbari when they tried to tell them they were not gods as they believed but just advanced aliens. That sparked off a rebellion that led to nearly glassing Minbar.

Also in the Drakh sourcebook there is a mention of some sort of compact that the Shadows were bound to that they could not claim to be gods but if a race freely chose to worship them then they would be fine with that. This may hint at some sort of agreement between the First Ones to avoid being worshipped as gods. The angel disguise is just a form of conditioning and control to help being seen in a positive light.

It is interesing to note that the Shadows for all intents and purposes kept to their word. They spread chaos and destruction but did not start mucking around with races and such until the Vorlons starting seeding telepaths around the galaxy and started their angel disguise trick. In other words, the lords of order were the first ones to break the rules and the Shadows simply followed suit as a way to keep up.

And they didn't destroy Zha'ha'dum earlier because Lorien was there.

[Ragnarok]

The only real outcome of the Kirishiac war was the decision to spread jump gates all around the galaxy and make sure that races discover hyperspace travel early on in their developments, to promote early interaction between races.

But by doing so, they also ended up stifling the growth of the Younger Races as the knowledge to discover and fully navigate Hyperspace by your own technology is infinitely greater than just copying a jump engine and riding the beacon network.

[Target2006]

The thing to remember with the Vorlons or any of the other First Ones is that they tend to take the long view on things. Why didn't they get involved in the Earth Minbari war? Because they needed Valen to be born and created under a spefic set of circumstances to close the circle. No Earth Minbari War = No Sinclar finding his destiny. For them the death of 250,000 humans and near extinction of the human race was a fair price to pay for winning the prior Shadow War and establishing a social order of peace on Minbar as well as the othe rippling effects Valen had on galactic history. The short term chaos in the social order they create with telepaths (and that seems to be limited to humans because other alien species seem to have seamlessly incorporated telepaths into their societies) is balanced out by the long term goal of eliminating the shadows or at the very least curtail and shorten the shadow wars. With a Vorlon its like dealing with an immortal chess master. You think 10 moves ahead and they're thinking what will happen over millennia as a consequence of each of their moves. They gladly take a hit now to pull out a victory ten generations from now.

Ok, I accept that. So lets leave the Earth-Minbari war to one side and accept that the Vorlons have to allow that to happen. What about all the other wars? The Dilgar war and how many other conflicts that happened during the last thousand years that had no connection to the Shadows? Why did the Vorlons not act to prevant wars? They seemingly killed Jhadur to prevent the races becoming immortal, not to stop the chaos that would happen from other races slaughtering each other for the Enzyme.

As for telepaths, it does seem that Earth is the only place where there is resentment among the "normals". I don't like that, because I imagine that there hasto have been problems within other races, but alas its only Earth that is shown. Certainly you'd think that at least the Centauri would have had internal problems as well.

The Vorlon goal (to me anyway) seems to be to manipulate a single individual (Valen in the last war, Sheridan in the current one) to coordinate an alliance to win against the Shadows. Now thats commendable, but that doesn't directly address the idea of Order, just stopping the Shadows from causing Chaos. Remember the Delann/Shadows dialogue and the Sheridan/Vorlons dialogue from Into the Fire? The Shadows try to convince Delann of the rightness of their cause of chaos and death, the Vorlons......just tell Sheridan that the Shadows have to be destroyed. Nothing else. They don't actually explain the positive attraction of Order to him (just one line at the the end about their must be Order and Obedience).

I don't really see how the Vorlons did "lose their way" (up to the planet killer stuff anyway). There seems very little evidence by their actions that they were extreme zelots of Order in any long-term shape even though its always attributed to them. Just short-term coalitions to defeat the Shadows. Anti-Shadow, not pro-Order. The Vorlons are very much a reactive species only.

As to the angel thing some of the sourcebooks like the Minbari sourcebook point out that the Vorlons are actually uncomfortable with religion and using it as a tool for control partly because they are opposed to immitating something they don't believe in (divinity) and they had a bad experience with the Minbari when they tried to tell them they were not gods as they believed but just advanced aliens. That sparked off a rebellion that led to nearly glassing Minbar.

Also in the Drakh sourcebook there is a mention of some sort of compact that the Shadows were bound to that they could not claim to be gods but if a race freely chose to worship them then they would be fine with that. This may hint at some sort of agreement between the First Ones to avoid being worshipped as gods. The angel disguise is just a form of conditioning and control to help being seen in a positive light.

I have not seen the Minbari or Drakh fact books, but what you say doesn't track with what is mentioned in Thirdspace. Lyta said that the Vorlons began to believe that they really were Gods, after all the races they instructed worshipped them. So the Vorlons didn't condemn the worshippers out of hand as being wrong. Now thats not an endorsment of religion by the Vorlons, but its pretty close (I wonder if religious wars were fought over interpretations of the Vorlons divinity, aka, more chaos due to the Vorlons not handing down a specific religious creed. But thats just my supposition)

It is interesing to note that the Shadows for all intents and purposes kept to their word. They spread chaos and destruction but did not start mucking around with races and such until the Vorlons starting seeding telepaths around the galaxy and started their angel disguise trick. In other words, the lords of order were the first ones to break the rules and the Shadows simply followed suit as a way to keep up.

No argument there. The Shadows stick to their word, as despicable as it is.

And they didn't destroy Zha'ha'dum earlier because Lorien was there.

Ok, fine, but why didn't they destroy the other worlds that the Shadows used that were near Z'Ha'dum? According to G'Kar there were several worlds that were reoccupied by the Shadows after 1000 years absence. Why were they not destroyed after the last war, during which there must have been some sort of direct Shadow/Vorlon physical action? I can understand the Vorlons/Shadows holding off when races are been manipulated, but given the zeal with which they directly attack each other in Into the Fire, I don't understand how a siege of Z'ha'dum would not convince the Shadows to at least bring out their big guns and the Vorlons to not at least destroy the Shadow planets that are Lorienless.

[NecronLord]

The Vorlons do not practice what they preach. If the Vorlon goal is to spread "Order", should they not have been STOPPING all wars during the last thousand years and acting as the galactic peace-keepers? Should they not have intervened in the Earth-Minbari war and forced a peace? But they don't. They let the Dilgar war happen, the Minbari war, the wars and skirmishs of the Centauri and Narns and the League. Why?

Because they're a bit more complicated than that. They do not believe that order is inherently good, they believe that ordered societies and interactions between societies are the best way for a species to reach full maturity. They do not simply want order for its own sake - it would be trivial for the Vorlons or the Shadows to completely control the Younger Races under their influence, and remove free will (according to the aforementioned sourcebook) but that doesn't make them First Onces.

The Vorlons consider races directly ruled by themselves to be failures; and only do so to prevent that race's extinction. A culture cannot become First Ones if they are controlled.

Rushing in and fixing every problem for them will not help them learn to solve their own problems, and stand on their own.

Remember, initially, the goal of the Vigil was to bring about the outcome of Coriana VI; to make the Young Races ready to take custodianship of the galaxy on their own, that was what both Vorlons and Shadows modus operendi were originally aimed at bringing about.

Though they perhaps didn't plan on it being quite so rude.

[DarkAscendant]

I have two problems with the Vorlon Motivations

1: After reading Darkness and Light and Wars of the Ancients and watching the tv show and reading most of the Technomage books...I still don't understand the Vorlon actions during the show up to Sheridan's attack on Z'Ha'Dum.

The Shadows are murderous evil bastards, but they are not two-faced with their philosophy. Their goal is to spread chaos. And thats what they do. They come out and start wars everywhere.They are honest. They practice what they preach.(mostly). I love the way that the book Darkness and Light show that the Shadows don't even care when they are woken up. They prefer to leave it to circumstance. They are Chaos.

The Vorlons do not practice what they preach. If the Vorlon goal is to spread "Order", should they not have been STOPPING all wars during the last thousand years and acting as the galactic peace-keepers? Should they not have intervened in the Earth-Minbari war and forced a peace? But they don't. They let the Dilgar war happen, the Minbari war, the wars and skirmishs of the Centauri and Narns and the League. Why?

Instead they create telepaths but thats an anti-Shadow action. It's a strategy to directly affect the Shadow ships. Its not an action of Order but of Anti-Shadow. Also it promotes chaos by having only some of the population on Earth being telepaths and causes resentment and fear on Earth.

As regards their impersonation of angels. Its only half-arsed. Why have they not directly forced a religious rule on the other races during the last thousand years. Like the Ori from Stargate. So as to promote Order. They don't. They remain mysterious and forboding. Why? No Order there. Just ...nothing.

Even their question ("Who are You") is designed for personal reflection. It doesn't lead to Order if you ask me. A better question would be "What can you create" or something like that.

They are both bad, but as regards motivation at least the Shadows are not hypocrites

2: After Sheridan's attack on Z'Ha'Dum, the Vorlons go all out with Planet-Killers. This confuses me. When the Shadows were driven from Z'ha'dum last time, was the planet not bombed then? It must have been. Whats the difference between now and then?

In fact, I have to ask, HOW were the Shadows driven/forced into hibernation from Z'Ha'Dum last time? I presume the Vorlons must have joined in to do so? So they would have bombed the planet and attacked cities. Things must have escalated into Shadows and Vorlons directly attacking each other. So why didn't they come out with the Planet-Killers then?

I'm sure they must have hit Z'Ha'Dum with worse then what Sheridan hit it with. Unless the Shadows packed up and left without any siege of Z'Ha'Dum. Which IMO doesn't track with what Delann mentions the whole time, when she says they were "driven" from the planet. I mean were the Vorlons not deemed to have "won" the last war? So surely it would have been Planet-Killer time?

Well, maybe you should have read Darkness and Light more carefully since it spelled out that the Vorlons are not interested in ruling over races and micromanaging every aspect of their development. They didn't even do that with the Minbari.

[Target2006]

Than I have to ask, if the Vorlons are not allowed to directly control any of the races, how were they affecting the process of creating Order in the show? By Kosh telephatically sending dreams to Sheridan? By him saving Sheridan and appearing as an angel to all the races? Is that Order creating? Does that mirror what Morden does for Chaos? I can't really see that.

The last two posts directly said what they can't do. Ok fine, I accept that they cannot directly rule. What can they do to affect Order? If you take out the Shadows from the show, how are any of the Vorlon's actions really dedicated to Order?

If you say that the Vorlons are not that set on Order anyway and thats its only an anti-Shadow agenda, than when Delann says that the "Vorlons lost their way", it doesn't make any sense (in the pre-planet killer era anyway).
They were dicks, but they were simply part of an alliance against the bad guys. The religious stuff isn't direct manipulation, the telepaths are only a Shadow weapon anyway, so how are the Vorlons being unreasonable and must leave? Yet they "lost their way" somehow.

Of course if Delann refers to the planet killers, than the statement makes sense.

[Slacker]

Ok, I accept that. So lets leave the Earth-Minbari war to one side and accept that the Vorlons have to allow that to happen. What about all the other wars? The Dilgar war and how many other conflicts that happened during the last thousand years that had no connection to the Shadows? Why did the Vorlons not act to prevant wars? They seemingly killed Jhadur to prevent the races becoming immortal, not to stop the chaos that would happen from other races slaughtering each other for the Enzyme.

Well, remember, the Dilgar War is pretty directly responsible for the Earth-Minbari War-it ensures the rise of the Earth Alliance as a major power and gives them the confidence they need to seek out the Minbari in the first place. I would think everything between the last Shadow War and 'present' would be kept the same to ensure the continuation of the Cycle.

[Big Orange]

I wouldn't apply human scale morality on the Vorlons when they hired an ex-serial killer as their envoy.

[NecronLord]

I wouldn't apply human scale morality on the Vorlons when they hired an ex-serial killer as their envoy.

If you recall, they made him do forced labour (Admittedly torturing people, which he seems to like) on and off for centuries, and then would "let him die" - IE execute him - when done with him. Hardly the best existence.

[NecronLord]

Than I have to ask, if the Vorlons are not allowed to directly control any of the races, how were they affecting the process of creating Order in the show? By Kosh telephatically sending dreams to Sheridan? By him saving Sheridan and appearing as an angel to all the races? Is that Order creating? Does that mirror what Morden does for Chaos? I can't really see that.

They assist those who want to create lasting social order, like Valen, or Sheridan, in doing so.

[Target2006]

They assist those who want to create lasting social order, like Valen, or Sheridan, in doing so.

1:
Ok. So the Vorlons only limit their manipulation to "levers" who will than create the social order themselves? Fine, I could live with that except that doesn't seem nearly so strong in magnitude and ideology for ideologies sake (compared to the Shadows) such that the Vorlons are deemed to have "lost their way" as Delann puts it and have to leave the Galaxy. Kosh sent Sheridan dreams and appeared as his father and taught him some lessons during season 2. Is that equal and opposite to what the Shadows do through seasons 1-3 with their rampage?

2:
You know, it seems to me that Sheridan pretty much puts a Vorlon-ish plan into action when he creates the ISA anyway. Did the Vorlons eventually intend something like that? All from a few dreams and some cryptic words and torturing of Delann? Its very far fetched to me if that argument was made.

And if it is argued that the Vorlons actually did somehow inspire the ISA as something concrete for Order, the problem is that the ISA is portrayed as a good thing throughout the show but the show also portrays the Vorlons as half of the fundamental problem and have "lost their way". I would see a disconnect there. The show should have portrayed that a little Chaos in the ISA is a good thing

[NecronLord]

The Vorlons lost their way about when they decided to blow up Coriana VI. Sheridan and co of course carry on in the Vorlons' mould, just as the Drakh inherit from the Shadows.

[Target2006]

The Vorlons lost their way about when they decided to blow up Coriana VI. Sheridan and co of course carry on in the Vorlons' mould, just as the Drakh inherit from the Shadows.

So...not to put words in your mouth, everything up to season 4 is the Vorlons not having lost their way? Ok, I can go with that. So the Vorlons were not doing much of anything reprehensible until they started planet killing and thus they had to leave. Up until that point, what they did was acceptable to Sheridan and Delann. (dreams, cryptic words, torturing Delann to make her a better person, teaching Sheridan the meaning of life, appearing as G'kar and Sheridan's dads etc)

Of course what they did with the Planet Killers was once again an anti-Shadow action and caused more chaos. It was certainly not an act of Order. I think based on all the evidance of the show and not the books/rpg guides is that the Vorlons were obsessed with Anti-Shadow actions (telepaths, planet killers, possibly influencing "levers" such as Valen, Dukhat, Sheridan, Delann to create alliances against the Shadows). I don't see any evidence that they were actually involved in the actions of creating Order as an independent process. Perhaps the appearing of religious figures would count, but as stated earlier in the thread, its nothing like what the Ori do in stargate. It wasn't religious rule. I also only see ambigious evidance that Sheridan and Delann were inspired by them to create the ISA. Nothing like the ISA was created after the first Shdaow war, and I can't see how cryptic words and dreams actually help give the characters the idea to create alliances. The rpg books may give that impression, but its too flimsy to use the shows evidence to say that.

So to sum up, my opinion is that while the rpg books may give the impression that the Vorlons were proponents of Order, from the show the two First one powers in the Babylon 5 universe actually taught ideologies of Anti-Shadow/Chaos to the younger races.

[CaptainChewbacca]

That's pretty much it. The Vorlons and Shadows got so caught up in promoting their ideologies they just started hating each-other and opposing one another out of hand.

[Target2006]

No thats not it, what the real evidence points to was that the Vorlons were never caught up in a distinct ideology or to be more precise their ideology was always just "anti-Shadow".
The Shadows on the other hand practiced Chaos and got the races to fight each other until the Vorlons started planet-killing. Than they went all out against the Vorlons. So the Shadows actually did try to "teach" the younger races up until that point, the Vorlons did sweet-fuck all. They were not equal and opposite forces. The Shadows had an actual plan of evolution for the younger races, the Vorlons had nothing.