The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

[Flagg]

I'm sure if we started dumping police cases in the ICC, they'd tell us to knock it off and pay for a competant legal system.

Wouldn't it be lovely if we had one of those?

[Shroom Man 777]

Either way, I am certainly glad that there were people on the scene to photograph and video record this crime happening in progress. This can be used as evidence to induce great justice against those wrongers doing the wrongdoings. Imagine how much more difficult this would be for the injured parties if bystanders had not caught footage of this terrible event. Again, another event to support the further surveillance of potential wrongdoers who might be doing wrongs.

[madd0ct0r]

I can just about stretch to suppose it might be an officer dispensing teargas/bangers standing behind a three man deep line.

He might not be able to see the guy on the ground, but can see a surge of heads suddenly moving towards the police lines and throws a gasbomb where they're heading.

i can just about see how it might happen, but the point of professionalism is to avoid accidents where needed. not panic.

It's not like the guy next to Olsen wasn't shouting 'medic' or equivalent.

[open_sketchbook]

Either way, I am certainly glad that there were people on the scene to photograph and video record this crime happening in progress. This can be used as evidence to induce great justice against those wrongers doing the wrongdoings. Imagine how much more difficult this would be for the injured parties if bystanders had not caught footage of this terrible event. Again, another event to support the further surveillance of potential wrongdoers who might be doing wrongs.

Does it really matter either way? We see it happen and get outraged, but nothing will actually come of it. No disciplinary action will be taken against the police, no politician will change their mind about it, and it certainly won't motivate corporations to pay a living wage. Hell, a lot of people will just link it to their friends and laugh about a liberal getting what's coming to them, if the youtube comments are anything to go by. In the end, all it is is a guy getting hurt.

[The Romulan Republic]

Believe it or not, sometimes police do face disciplinary action. And believe it or not, sometimes politicians do change their position. Hell, there are probably even a few decent CEOs out there.

In any case, even if nothing more comes of it, its good that its out there so people know the truth of what happens. The truth matters for its own sake.

[Zaune]

Does it really matter either way? We see it happen and get outraged, but nothing will actually come of it. No disciplinary action will be taken against the police, no politician will change their mind about it, and it certainly won't motivate corporations to pay a living wage. Hell, a lot of people will just link it to their friends and laugh about a liberal getting what's coming to them, if the youtube comments are anything to go by. In the end, all it is is a guy getting hurt.

I'll tell you one thing that's come of it. The odds of the protesters returning fire next time got a hell of a lot shorter.

[open_sketchbook]

You keep telling yourself that, tough guy.

[K. A. Pital]

You keep telling yourself that, tough guy.

I don't think he's being a tough guy. Radicalization is a well-examined process. When an especially peaceful protest gets violently dispersed, people tend to turn to more violent means of resistance (unless there's a whole campaign to subdue violence - e.g. Ghandi's Satyagrakha - but that requires a whole goddamn ideology to be formed around a cultural core of religious-traditional nonviolent resistance theories).

[Shroom Man 777]

Haven't we seen this happen all the time? Protesters and mobs going nuts whenever something steps over the line, as seen in Greece and Britain and all sorts of places? Admittedly, those are in Europe where rioting with molotov cocktails is like a national pass time of that country.

[K. A. Pital]

Haven't we seen this happen all the time? Protesters and mobs going nuts whenever something steps over the line, as seen in Greece and Britain and all sorts of places? Admittedly, those are in Europe where rioting with molotov cocktails is like a national pass time of that country.

European protests often started as peaceful and the level of violence increased as time passed and protests were dispersed by police. Greece didn't start with burning the Ministry of Defence building straightaway - it started with peaceful, small protests here and there, more or less peaceful large protests and then, as time passed, violent, violent and more violent protests.

[loomer]

You keep telling yourself that, tough guy.

I don't think it's tough guyism to expect a higher potential for violence from the Occupy movement now that more ex-military personnel are joining them over one of their own being severely injured. With any luck, it won't happen, but these people have been shit on by the American government already - healthcare problems, pay problems, job and residence problems - and a lot of them, frankly, are rightfully angry about it, even without Olsen taking a tear gas can to the face. Now that he has, you also have the element of service pride getting involved, and if some of those ex-military occupiers stagger in after a few drinks on the wrong night, when the police try and disperse a protest again, then it's very much within the realm of possibility that they might try fighting back.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I can just about stretch to suppose it might be an officer dispensing teargas/bangers standing behind a three man deep line.

I don't see how. If you watch the video through, you can see the officer who threw it casually toss it from the front line.

[Zaune]

Thanks for the backup, guys. And as I've stated repeatedly before, I don't actually like the idea of bloodshed in the name of political change any more than the rest of you. Revolutions are a fool's game, for the most part; even if you win the results are seldom worth the price in blood and treasure.

But so far as I can see, the question of whether or not the Occupy protesters are justified in resorting to violence is academic. It's all but inevitable now, barring a last-minute outbreak of sanity in Congress so both parties can at least make a convincing pretence of working to improve employment prospects and average living standards.

[White Haven]

Yeah, the casual close-range toss is really damning there. 'Hey look, guy on the ground not moving, lemme toss a chemical weapons canister right next to him, that's an awesome idea.'

From the New York City government website about tear gas:
Long-lasting exposure (over an hour) or exposure to a large dose of tear gas, especially in an enclosed setting, may cause severe effects such as:

• Blindness
• Glaucoma (a serious eye condition that can lead to blindness)
• Death due to serious chemical burns to the throat and lungs
• Respiratory (breathing) failure possibly resulting in death

I'd say being on the ground a couple feet from a tear gas canister, unable to move to avoid it would qualify as an unusually large dose. So, about those attempted murder charges...

[Zaune]

Update on Scott Olsen's condition. He's regained consciousness but appears to have suffered a brain injury. Too early to tell how badly he'll be affected in the long term, of course.

[Flagg]

Update on Scott Olsen's condition. He's regained consciousness but appears to have suffered a brain injury. Too early to tell how badly he'll be affected in the long term, of course.

Who needs IED's when we can brain injure our soldiers here?

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah, the casual close-range toss is really damning there. 'Hey look, guy on the ground not moving, lemme toss a chemical weapons canister right next to him, that's an awesome idea.'

From the New York City government website about tear gas:
Long-lasting exposure (over an hour) or exposure to a large dose of tear gas, especially in an enclosed setting, may cause severe effects such as:

• Blindness
• Glaucoma (a serious eye condition that can lead to blindness)
• Death due to serious chemical burns to the throat and lungs
• Respiratory (breathing) failure possibly resulting in death

I'd say being on the ground a couple feet from a tear gas canister, unable to move to avoid it would qualify as an unusually large dose. So, about those attempted murder charges...

What was tossed into the group was a flash-bang, not a tear gas bomb, so it wasn't going to poison him. As to whether getting hit in the head with a tear gas bomb and knocked out cold by it as it goes off counts as attempted murder... dunno. Would be interested to see an impartial court ruling on that.

[White Haven]

What was tossed into the group was a flash-bang, not a tear gas bomb, so it wasn't going to poison him. As to whether getting hit in the head with a tear gas bomb and knocked out cold by it as it goes off counts as attempted murder... dunno. Would be interested to see an impartial court ruling on that.

Just for the record, that wasn't a 'flash-bang'. It was a 2 stage pyrotechnic teargas dispenser. The initial flash on the ground is the base charge that propels the teargas 'bomb' into the air. Then the teargas 'bomb' ignites dispersing teargas powder.

It seems perhaps not...

[Kamakazie Sith]

I'd say being on the ground a couple feet from a tear gas canister, unable to move to avoid it would qualify as an unusually large dose. So, about those attempted murder charges...

That's assuming the contents of the entire canister actually meet the unspecified "large dose". Then you also have the problem with the deployment being in open air. Then finally you have the actual result. Did he suffer any of those symptoms that can be attributed back to tear gas?

What was tossed into the group was a flash-bang, not a tear gas bomb, so it wasn't going to poison him. As to whether getting hit in the head with a tear gas bomb and knocked out cold by it as it goes off counts as attempted murder... dunno. Would be interested to see an impartial court ruling on that.

Actually, I think Andras is correct and that is actually a two stage tear gas dispenser. I should have realized that because I thought they seemed a bit dim for flash bangs.

[The Yosemite Bear]

hey, It just occured to me, if we are still at war in Afganistan, and the Oakland Police apparently assulted a Marine, can the Marine Shore Patrol arrest the Oakland PD SWAT/RIOT squad members for Violations of Rules of Engagement under the Uniform Code of Military Justice?

[Kamakazie Sith]

hey, It just occured to me, if we are still at war in Afganistan, and the Oakland Police apparently assulted a Marine, can the Marine Shore Patrol arrest the Oakland PD SWAT/RIOT squad members for Violations of Rules of Engagement under the Uniform Code of Military Justice?

Is this a serious question?

[White Haven]

I'd say being on the ground a couple feet from a tear gas canister, unable to move to avoid it would qualify as an unusually large dose. So, about those attempted murder charges...

That's assuming the contents of the entire canister actually meet the unspecified "large dose". Then you also have the problem with the deployment being in open air. Then finally you have the actual result. Did he suffer any of those symptoms that can be attributed back to tear gas?

Tossing an area-denial chemical weapon (since that's what tear gas is) grenade right next to someone who can't move to avoid it is enough, to my thinking. Given that half of the symptoms listed result in death and he's not dead, that'd be why it's attempted and not premeditated murder.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Tossing an area-denial chemical weapon (since that's what tear gas is) grenade right next to someone who can't move to avoid it is enough, to my thinking. Given that half of the symptoms listed result in death and he's not dead, that'd be why it's attempted and not premeditated murder.

Yes, it's also a chemical weapon not likely to cause immediate death like a gun or knife. The amount needed to be inhaled is unspecified and again to our knowledge the only injury he has is directly attributed to blunt force impact. I'm sorry, man. You're not going to get your radical charges. Stick with something that fits what actually took place and not what could take place if the conditions were perfect.

[Zaune]

hey, It just occured to me, if we are still at war in Afganistan, and the Oakland Police apparently assulted a Marine, can the Marine Shore Patrol arrest the Oakland PD SWAT/RIOT squad members for Violations of Rules of Engagement under the Uniform Code of Military Justice?

He's actually a former Marine if I remember right, and in any case, can you really see the military going for bat for one of their people who gets hurt at an anti-government rally? I know they have to at least pay lip-service to the Constitution, but I can't imagine the brass are exactly happy about the Other Ranks showing signs of independent political thought.

[White Haven]

Eh, I suppose I have to give you that much, KS. A lot of my feelings on the matter tie into my desire to see police who abuse the public trust placed in them crucified for the deed (and before any of you N&P whiners pipe up, no, not literally, blah, blah, take your 'internet tough guy!' jabbering and stow it). Now, whoever was firing tear gas grenades at head-level right in front of the police line is perhaps in a substantially less defensible position...

Shame more police don't follow Albany's lead and recognize that the best way to turn a peaceful protest into a riot is to fire tear gas into it. Then you can get into the policy decisions behind the assumption that a peaceful protest in a non-permitted area is more of a threat to civic peace than riot police firing chemical weapons in the streets.