Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

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Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

Post by Sriad »

For quite a while the kilogram has been defined as the mass of a particular lump of metal, not any natural constant. Scientifically speaking, this is "a problem"... but progress has been made!

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2 ... asure.html
NewScientist wrote: After decades of worry, toil and argument, metrologists have officially begun the process of tying the definitions of four basic units to nature's fundamental constants.

The General Conference on Weights and Measures (CGPM) in Paris, France, has unanimously agreed on a proposal that would lead to reform of the mole, kilogram, kelvin and ampere, according to the international system of units (SI).

That puts us on the cusp of a historic change in the way science sizes up the world. If the next CGPM, in four years' time, confirms the plan, it will amount to the biggest change to the SI units for a century.

Proponents of the switch are thrilled. "Not a single vote against! It was unbelievable," says Ian Mills of the University of Reading, UK.

Metal shock

Nearly all measurements we make are ultimately based on the SI, with a chain of laws and rules leading back to just seven base units. The way that these units are defined doesn't matter so much for weighing vegetables, say, but many scientific experiments require precise measurement, especially in areas like fundamental physics.

The first sign that the SI was flawed was noticed in 1949 in a check on a lump of metal kept inside a vault at the International Bureau of Weights and Measures (BIPM) in Paris. By definition, it is the only object in existence with a mass of exactly 1 kilogram – one of the seven SI base units – so metrologists were unsettled to discover that this mass had changed.

Not liking to rush into anything, however, no one checked the standard kilogram again until 1989. The problem had not gone away.

The metre and the second are two base units that don't have anything like this to worry about. They are defined with reference to the speed of light – a link to a fundamental constant that makes them robust. Much of the rest of the SI, however, isn't in great shape.

Planck and Avogadro

A drifting kilogram means that the mole, the unit that chemists use for measuring the amount of a substance, is in trouble too. The kelvin is currently defined according to the property of water in a certain state – a fact that makes precise measurements at very high or low temperatures impossible. Meanwhile, the ampere's definition is so impractical that electrical researchers have had to turn to a definition outside the SI system based on quantum processes instead.

See more: Click here to see the present and proposed SI unit definitions

In 2006, after decades of little action, Mills and fellow metrologists Terry Quinn, Peter Mohr, Edwin Williams and Barry Taylor argued in the journal Metrologia that the four problematic units should be tied to fundamental constants of the universe instead. The seventh, the candela, could wait.

For the kilogram, they suggested using the Planck constant, which relates the energy of electromagnetic radiation to its frequency. The Planck constant can also be used to define the Avogadro constant, the number of atoms in 12 grams of carbon-12, which in turn can be used to obtain the mole.

A fixed value is also possible for another constant, the elementary charge carried by one proton or electron, which can be used to define the ampere. For the kelvin, you can use the Boltzmann constant, which relates thermal and mechanical energy.

Persuasive power

Mills and colleagues had their work cut out to actually make this happen, though. The process of changing the SI units requires a vote by representatives of the member states of the CGPM, which meets only once every four years and is notoriously slow and bureaucratic.

What's more, the reformers had to persuade conservative elements within the CGPM of the necessity of the changes. The conservatives resisted such a switch, claiming that the extra precision was unnecessary and that there was a risk the changes could be wrong.

Mills and colleagues, however, believe that metrology should always be one step ahead: ever-increasing precision is what the field is all about. "We're impeding progress if we refuse," says Mills.

The metre used to be defined by a scratch on a metal bar and the second was linked to the rotation of the Earth, he points out. At the time people were happy enough, but without exquisite accuracy in measuring time and distance, for example, we couldn't use satellites for GPS.

Tense lobbying

On 17 October, Mills stood up in front of the CGPM audience to make the case. It was only a 10-minute presentation, but among the most important of his career. He and colleagues had drafted a proposal that would set the body on a path to change the SI.

Five tense days of behind-the-scenes discussions and lobbying later, Mills and his colleagues learned that the CGPM had unanimously backed the proposal.

Although the decision will not be binding without another vote in four years' time, this approval makes the switch much more likely. "This is a unanimous public statement," says Mills.

At his age, Mills accepts that he himself may not get to see the new system put in place. "It'll happen," he told New Scientist earlier this month. "It may be after I'm gone. I'm 81 years old. But it'll happen."
I'll be glad to see this happen, the fact that many critical units are derived from an arbitrary piece of metal is somewhere between shocking, offensive, and hilarious.

(the proposed new definition is "The kilogram is such that the Planck constant is exactly 6.6260693 x 10^-34 joule-seconds")
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

That works for me. I wonder how they're going to define the Candela.
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

Post by Surlethe »

I don't see how an arbitrary unit is somehow laughable, shocking, or offensive. When you're making measurements, in order to compare the measurements you have to have some agreed-upon standard. Physics had to start somewhere, so they picked essentially arbitrary standards of length, mass, time, and so forth. It hasn't been until relatively (hah) recently that we've been able to deduce the existence of fundamental constants, and even more recently, to measure them with enough precision to redefine our units in terms of those constants.

Besides, the kilogram, meter, second, and so on are still perfectly arbitrary. Why is 1 kg such that h = 6.6260693 x 10^-34 J*s?That's a perfectly arbitrary number; the only reason is because "kg", "s", "m", and so forth are legacy units. From the perspective of naturality, it's as silly as base-10 numerals. So it's inconsistent to criticize the original units as ridiculous while hailing this as a step in the right direction --- they're still just as ridiculous, just more precisely so. ;)
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

Post by LaCroix »

Related question: What is the length of an inch derived from? I knew the modern "standard" definition was originally the thumb of some king, but how is this checked today? Is there still some parchment with the outline of the thumb around?
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

Post by Kryten »

All imperial units are now defined by SI units; an inch is officially 25.4 millimetres.
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

Post by SCRawl »

LaCroix wrote:Related question: What is the length of an inch derived from? I knew the modern "standard" definition was originally the thumb of some king, but how is this checked today? Is there still some parchment with the outline of the thumb around?
The inch had subsequently been defined as "three grains of barley, dry and round, placed end to end, lengthwise" (or so sayeth wikipedia). Presumably this was done because of the abundance of barley, and relative scarcity of kings' thumbs.

More recently I've read that an inch has been legally defined as 2.54cm.In other words, those who care to measure in Imperial terms dodge the problem by letting the SI units be the precise ones, and then defining their units in terms of those. Aside from a few exceptions, though, are Imperial units even legal for trade?

Regarding the OP, as a physics guy, it's good to get this squared away.
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

Post by LaCroix »

So the hallowed imperial measurements couldn't exist without SI units? :D

Anyway - before SI, the inch/foot/yard must be derived from something - what was the common standard for the US(or Britain, if it was re-used)? Was there an "original yardstick" or what?
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

Post by SCRawl »

LaCroix wrote:So the hallowed imperial measurements couldn't exist without SI units? :D
Not anymore, and as I posted the unit isn't used for trade much these days. The "international inch" was precisely defined as 25.4mm, which is off by only a few parts per million.
LaCroix wrote:Anyway - before SI, the inch/foot/yard must be derived from something - what was the common standard for the US(or Britain, if it was re-used)? Was there an "original yardstick" or what?
As I mentioned, that barley corn measure seems to have been the way things were done until the middle of the 20th century. I imagine that manufacturers had measuring instruments around (which, I'm guessing, weren't regularly calibrated against barley corn), and used those were the de facto standards, at least until the inch was officially tied to the SI units. If there was a society out there devoted to maintenance of the definitions for the Imperial measures, I don't know what it was. (This is not to say that it was obscure, but rather I don't know of it and my Google-fu has come up empty.)
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

Post by Molyneux »

Surlethe wrote:I don't see how an arbitrary unit is somehow laughable, shocking, or offensive. When you're making measurements, in order to compare the measurements you have to have some agreed-upon standard. Physics had to start somewhere, so they picked essentially arbitrary standards of length, mass, time, and so forth. It hasn't been until relatively (hah) recently that we've been able to deduce the existence of fundamental constants, and even more recently, to measure them with enough precision to redefine our units in terms of those constants.

Besides, the kilogram, meter, second, and so on are still perfectly arbitrary. Why is 1 kg such that h = 6.6260693 x 10^-34 J*s?That's a perfectly arbitrary number; the only reason is because "kg", "s", "m", and so forth are legacy units. From the perspective of naturality, it's as silly as base-10 numerals. So it's inconsistent to criticize the original units as ridiculous while hailing this as a step in the right direction --- they're still just as ridiculous, just more precisely so. ;)
I think the big deal is not that they're any more or less arbitrary - the idea is that it's important for these units to be based on some measurable facet of nature itself, some constant that is extremely unlikely to change according to our understanding of physical laws.

If they make the change, it will mean that anyone, anywhere in the universe, could measure out a kilogram and be sure that they were accurate. As-is, you can't be certain that you have a kilogram of mass unless you actually have the official weight on hand to compare it against.
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

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SCRawl wrote:Aside from a few exceptions, though, are Imperial units even legal for trade?
They are commonly used in construction. (ask the guy at Lowes for a 2.54 cm screw and he'll think about cutting you a custom length screw, ask for a 1 inch screw and he'll hand you a box of 20)

They are also common everyday measurements. I used them just yesterday -- the distance between the bottom of my bed and the floor is 9 inches, so I need under-bed storage containers that are shorter than that. The measurements were printed on the box when I went to the store. (so were the metric equivalents, but in smaller font.)
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

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Dave wrote:
SCRawl wrote:Aside from a few exceptions, though, are Imperial units even legal for trade?
They are commonly used in construction. (ask the guy at Lowes for a 2.54 cm screw and he'll think about cutting you a custom length screw, ask for a 1 inch screw and he'll hand you a box of 20)

They are also common everyday measurements. I used them just yesterday -- the distance between the bottom of my bed and the floor is 9 inches, so I need under-bed storage containers that are shorter than that. The measurements were printed on the box when I went to the store. (so were the metric equivalents, but in smaller font.)
These things are far different from being legal for trade. In other words, if I go to the lumber yard (for example), do they sell bulk materials by the inch? Come to think of it, I believe that they do, but the fact that the inch is now linked to the SI units means that this difference is meaningless.
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

Post by Alerik the Fortunate »

Besides, what happens if someone stole or damaged the Official Kilogram? It would have to be reconstructed with extreme care; difficult without a fundamental constant standard. Chaos ensues, followed by mass conversion to imperial units. Local barter economies set up their own metrics, which end up being traded at varying rates depending on local currency values, and then Shroom thinks up a more creative conclusion.
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

Post by aerius »

Alerik the Fortunate wrote:Besides, what happens if someone stole or damaged the Official Kilogram? It would have to be reconstructed with extreme care; difficult without a fundamental constant standard. Chaos ensues, followed by mass conversion to imperial units.
Not really. Every industrialized nation has its own official standard kilogram, and every so often these are compared against THE official kilogram in France. So let's say someone slips on a banana peel and the French kilo goes bouncing down a flight of stairs. It's ruined, but we can make another one by borrowing Germany's official kilo and making a copy of it.
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

Post by Sriad »

Surlethe wrote:I don't see how an arbitrary unit is somehow laughable, shocking, or offensive. When you're making measurements, in order to compare the measurements you have to have some agreed-upon standard. Physics had to start somewhere, so they picked essentially arbitrary standards of length, mass, time, and so forth. It hasn't been until relatively (hah) recently that we've been able to deduce the existence of fundamental constants, and even more recently, to measure them with enough precision to redefine our units in terms of those constants.

Besides, the kilogram, meter, second, and so on are still perfectly arbitrary. Why is 1 kg such that h = 6.6260693 x 10^-34 J*s?That's a perfectly arbitrary number; the only reason is because "kg", "s", "m", and so forth are legacy units. From the perspective of naturality, it's as silly as base-10 numerals. So it's inconsistent to criticize the original units as ridiculous while hailing this as a step in the right direction --- they're still just as ridiculous, just more precisely so. ;)
Well, from a certain point of view. ;)

My exact objection is that the current kg isn't derived from a fundamental constant. If I broke into the International Bureau of Weights and Measurements with an axe I could radically overhaul physics in about a minute, even though I'd weigh 20,000 Newtons after I was done.
aerius wrote:Not really. Every industrialized nation has its own official standard kilogram, and every so often these are compared against THE official kilogram in France. So let's say someone slips on a banana peel and the French kilo goes bouncing down a flight of stairs. It's ruined, but we can make another one by borrowing Germany's official kilo and making a copy of it.
That's what WOULD happen pretty quickly, but for a little while... ;)
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

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Alerik the Fortunate wrote:Besides, what happens if someone stole or damaged the Official Kilogram? It would have to be reconstructed with extreme care; difficult without a fundamental constant standard. Chaos ensues, followed by mass conversion to imperial units. Local barter economies set up their own metrics, which end up being traded at varying rates depending on local currency values, and then Shroom thinks up a more creative conclusion.
Uh, yeah, because all weights everywhere would just spontaneously combust, since the official kilogram is a magical artifact and all, making a mass conversion to the imperial system viable and economical :D

Jesus christ, people...
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

Post by Molyneux »

PeZook wrote:
Alerik the Fortunate wrote:Besides, what happens if someone stole or damaged the Official Kilogram? It would have to be reconstructed with extreme care; difficult without a fundamental constant standard. Chaos ensues, followed by mass conversion to imperial units. Local barter economies set up their own metrics, which end up being traded at varying rates depending on local currency values, and then Shroom thinks up a more creative conclusion.
Uh, yeah, because all weights everywhere would just spontaneously combust, since the official kilogram is a magical artifact and all, making a mass conversion to the imperial system viable and economical :D

Jesus christ, people...
You fail to realize that for some purposes, knowing the exact mass of an object to a ludicrously high degree of precision is useful. Scientists don't try to nail down the exact values of units of measure for shits and giggles, man.
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

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Molyneux wrote: You fail to realize that for some purposes, knowing the exact mass of an object to a ludicrously high degree of precision is useful. Scientists don't try to nail down the exact values of units of measure for shits and giggles, man.
Useful, not rah critical to daily survival of modern society. People would just continue to use whatever measures they have on hand for everyday purposes (you know, like they usually do. Engineers at your local factory don't fly down to Paris every time they have to measure the mass of something) until the official kilogram was reconstructed with some other official base, and then weights and measures would be successively recalibrated to the new standard where necessary (and it won't be in the vast majority of cases ; Nobody except select few specialists will care the slight difference)

Even if we had no other standard kilogram anywhere else in the world, it could still be remade within days by simply picking up an object with a precisely known mass, like say...any aircraft part...and using this for comparison.
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

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SCRawl wrote:These things are far different from being legal for trade. In other words, if I go to the lumber yard (for example), do they sell bulk materials by the inch? Come to think of it, I believe that they do, but the fact that the inch is now linked to the SI units means that this difference is meaningless.
In the US, the National Bureau of Standards did this in 1893- but before that, they were perfectly capable of keeping track of "official" yards, pounds, and whatnot. They could do it today; there's just no reason to bother, since the SI standards provide standard measurements they can use to certify the fundamental unit sizes.

And they (in their modern guise as NIST) still do all the same kinds of measurements, this is not an academic exercise to them, they have machines for measuring the ampere, meter, and so on according to the SI standards.

But there's nothing unique about the meter- we could pick any unit of length, define it in terms of the hyperfine transition of the cesium atom, and it would be just as rigorous as the meter. The real reason the meter is defined to its current length is that the revolutionary French back at the end of the 18th century thought that it was exactly (i.e. by definition) 10000 kilometers from the North Pole to the equator. They were, alas, a bit off, but that's the "real" definition of the meter. Subsequent definitions had to be written so as to preserve the length of the meter, because you couldn't go and say "oh, the meter is 5% longer now" without causing all the same sorts of problems the US would have converting from traditional to metric units, and then some.
PeZook wrote:
Alerik the Fortunate wrote:Besides, what happens if someone stole or damaged the Official Kilogram? It would have to be reconstructed with extreme care; difficult without a fundamental constant standard. Chaos ensues, followed by mass conversion to imperial units. Local barter economies set up their own metrics, which end up being traded at varying rates depending on local currency values, and then Shroom thinks up a more creative conclusion.
Uh, yeah, because all weights everywhere would just spontaneously combust, since the official kilogram is a magical artifact and all, making a mass conversion to the imperial system viable and economical :D

Jesus christ, people...
Come on, man. It was a joke.
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

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Once they don't need it anymore, they should auction THE kilogram. I wonder what it would fetch...
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

Post by Alerik the Fortunate »

Awesomeness! I'm curious who would buy it and what it would fetch.
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

Post by Vehrec »

It's scrap value-it's made of Platinum as I recall-would be over $50k. Add the historical value, and it might auction for a million dollars to some museum.
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

Post by Batman »

Yeah, like any museum on the planet could outbid the eccentric billionaire that just has to have the official metre. Chances are it would be bought for a ludicrous amount of money by one of those, added to their collection and completely forgotten about six weeks later.
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

Post by Drooling Iguana »

Batman wrote:Yeah, like any museum on the planet could outbid the eccentric billionaire that just has to have the official metre. Chances are it would be bought for a ludicrous amount of money by one of those, added to their collection and completely forgotten about six weeks later.
Right beside the robot T-Rex and the giant penny?
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Re: Physicists agree to an OFFICIAL kilogram!

Post by Batman »

Maybe :D
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