Thrawn vs. Spock

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Please. Kolrami was asskicked by Data. And the Zakdorns are a bunch of frauds.

Oh, I completely agree that the Zakdorns are a joke at real strategy, but Kolrami was reputedly an outstanding Stratagema player. Not very adaptable though. Of course, Thrawn doesn't really have the option of maintaining a stalemate and just outlasting his opponent; he has to eat, sleep, and go to the bathroom, too.

It's a stupid game anyways. For a strategy game, too much relies on using hands.

[Darth Servo]

Oh, I completely agree that the Zakdorns are a joke at real strategy, but Kolrami was reputedly an outstanding Stratagema player.

It's a stupid game anyways. For a strategy game, too much relies on using hands.

At least it didn't have a touch screen.

[xianseeker]

When I started this thread, I was thinking of Spock as shown in the novels. He is much more competent than the Spock of the films and tv show. Since Thrawn is extra-canonical, I assumed that novel showing Spock's abilites would be fine too.

But in retrospect, I guess there really is no contest. Sure Spock can predict the weather patterns of Earth for decades in advance, but Thrawn is a military genius.

[Keevan_Colton]

When I started this thread, I was thinking of Spock as shown in the novels. He is much more competent than the Spock of the films and tv show. Since Thrawn is extra-canonical, I assumed that novel showing Spock's abilites would be fine too.

But in retrospect, I guess there really is no contest. Sure Spock can predict the weather patterns of Earth for decades in advance, but Thrawn is a military genius.

Predict the weather for the next 10 years....general warm spell followed by cold followed by warm followed by cold again.....


Thrawn is the man when it comes to strategy, spock might get a job on the weather channel first though

[SCI-Fi_Freak]

Thrawn vs. Spock? Thats easy, give Thrawn a few Vulcan paintings and he's got their race figured out, lickidey split, and boom, Thrawn kills Spock, not even a contest!

[Admiral Johnason]

That has already been said Scifi. I hope your not a clone of Ben Ingram.

[xianseeker]

That has already been said Scifi. I hope your not a clone of Ben Ingram.

God/ess/gods/nature/universal presence/the Force/etc, forbid!

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

When I started this thread, I was thinking of Spock as shown in the novels. He is much more competent than the Spock of the films and tv show. Since Thrawn is extra-canonical, I assumed that novel showing Spock's abilites would be fine too.

But in retrospect, I guess there really is no contest. Sure Spock can predict the weather patterns of Earth for decades in advance, but Thrawn is a military genius.

Hello? Do you know anything about SW vs ST debates? "Extra-canon" in SW is official and can be used as long as it doesn't contradict canon. Novels in ST are pretty much fan-fiction on the scale of canon.

[Lord Pounder]

This has been pointed out to xianseeker several times and it doesn't seem to understand.

[SCI-Fi_Freak]

That has already been said Scifi. I hope your not a clone of Ben Ingram.

Whoops, didn't know that, I didn't both to read the whole topic.

[ANGELUS]

Spock may be a genious, but Thrawn's strategies are beyond telling. It takes more than a big IQ to handle a fleet. Besides Spock thinks allways in a logic way, therefore predictable, somebody who can understand and predict the moves of many different civilizations by only looking at their art will have no trouble predicting those of a logically based mind with no emotions or pasions.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Why did you resurect a thread that's be totally decided?

[irishmick79]

I think the important factor in this one would be the ally that Thrawn would wind up trusting too much. How much of a time frame are we looking at here? Would Spock have enough time to try and wrangle Thrawn's loyal underlings out from under him? Despite all of Thrawns apparent tactical advantages in this case, that could ultimately prove to be Thrawn's undoing. While Thrawn may have Spock outmatched as far as pure military strategy is concerned, I think Spock could be able to exploit an Thrawn underling if he saw that he had an opportunity.

[irishmick79]

Why did you resurect a thread that's be totally decided?

I think he ressurected the thread out of respect to me. I hadn't made a response yet, and his ressurection gave me an opportunity to do so.

Ok...I'm done being cocky now. Back to your regular programming....

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Yeah sure, an Imperial Officer is going to be manipulated by an alien from the galaxy their conquering to fight his commanding officer. [/SARCASM]



And prove that Spock could ever do such a thing. Thrawn was also a master of manipulation.

[Dorsk 81]

Thrawn was a tactical geniuss. Despite the Emporers slight dislike *cough* for alien races Thrawn still managed to make his way up to Grand Admiral he must therefore have the talent and tactical ability to make it far above that station.
Spock how ever only ever made it to captain I believe, if you can't tell from that who would win a battle then I don't know what will tell you!

[Dorsk 81]

Thrawn was a tactical geniuss. Despite the Emporers slight dislike *cough* for alien races Thrawn still managed to make his way up to Grand Admiral he must therefore have the talent and tactical ability to make it far above that station.
Spock how ever only ever made it to captain I believe, if you can't tell from that who would win a battle then I don't know what will tell you!

[irishmick79]

Who said Thrawn would employ an Imperial officer as a guardian? He seemed perfectly willing to entrust his safety to the hands of the Noghri. Maybe Thrawn, in an affort to understand the Star Trek universe better, would find a pet spiecies to adopt as his own, and treat them like a parent would treat a son.

Thrawn's own personal arrogance to the Noghri cannot be overlooked. That is Thrawn's big weakness. Thrawn believed in his own superiority like all imperial commanders, and if you stroked Thrawn's ego enough, you would get results.

I don't know if Spock would have been able to do so, but it would have been the one personal weakness that could have been exploited.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Thrawn's own personal arrogance to the Noghri cannot be overlooked. That is Thrawn's big weakness. Thrawn believed in his own superiority like all imperial commanders, and if you stroked Thrawn's ego enough, you would get results.

His death at the hands of Rukh had nothing to do with arrogance. It was dumb luck that Leia was able to tell him the truth about his people. Matter of fact, he would've taken Bilbringi had it not been for that treachery. I'm not saying he has never acted arrogant in his command, he has, but it has never truly effected the conflict in any way.

I don't know if Spock would have been able to do so, but it would have been the one personal weakness that could have been exploited.

I don't think Spock would have good connections in the SW galaxy. We've never seen Spock attempt anything like that before, too. I don't think he can rely on that.

[irishmick79]

Are you kidding me? Thrawn'd death at the hands of Rukh had EVERYTHING to do with arrogance. He never imagined that the Noghri would be able to find out what the empire really did to their home planet. He COMPLETELY underestimated Leia's ability to forcefully convey a message, and never thought that the New Republic agents would be able to track the noghri assassins back to their home planet. Once the republic agents got to the Noghri homeworld and figured out what actually happened, Thrawn was fucked.

Not only did he underestimate his opponent, he assumed that the Noghri would remain loyal to him because of the "aid" the empire was giving them, no matter what. This can all be attributed to Thrawn's own arrogance towards the Nogrhi. He thought he had them in his corner, and he never suspected their treachery until it was too late.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

You've obviously read the book more recently than I have, so whatever. Arrogance all over the place.

Still doesn't change the fact that Spock doesn't have connections in the SW universe to any of Thrawn's underlings, or anybody that would have connections to those underlings ect. Also, hes a science officer, and not much in the ways of sabatoge and treachery the like.

A Rebel (like Leia) is far better at that stuff.

[irishmick79]

Well, if we're assuming that Thrawn vs. Spock takes place when both are unfamiliar with each other's galaxies, than yeah, Spock has a disadvantage.

But to make this vs. battle somewhat fair, I'm assuming Thrawn and Spock have familiarity with each other's universe. Otherwise, both sides don't have as much to work with and the battle isn't as even. We're assuming this battle would take place on relatively even terms, right? Since none have been specified?

[Dorsk 81]

Which craft they'd be in would also have a huge role to play, if Spock is commanding the Enterprise he knew and Thrawn was commanding a Super Star Destroyer then Spock would be at a disadvantage considering the dimensions of a Sper Star Destroyer.
The only wya it could possibly be fair would be if they were both commanding unfamiliar craft, because if they were both is Star Destoryers then Thrawn would know its capabilites, etc, but Spock would not and vice versa if they were in Enterprise.

[irishmick79]

Which craft they'd be in would also have a huge role to play, if Spock is commanding the Enterprise he knew and Thrawn was commanding a Super Star Destroyer then Spock would be at a disadvantage considering the dimensions of a Sper Star Destroyer.
The only wya it could possibly be fair would be if they were both commanding unfamiliar craft, because if they were both is Star Destoryers then Thrawn would know its capabilites, etc, but Spock would not and vice versa if they were in Enterprise.

Exactly. If Thrawn is equipped with a super star destroyer, then what do you need Thrawn at the helm for? You already have the edge over every Star Trek vessel commissioned. It doesn't exactly take a lot of genious to say, "open fire."

But, if the match was on even grounds, and the campaign was given time to develop, it is reasonable to expect that the weakness for Thrawn that I mentioned above could have been exploited.

Again, I don't know if Spock would have been the guy who could have explited Thrawn's weakness, but what I'm saying is that on even grounds, Thrawn's "genious" could be highly overrated if the opposition played its cards right.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

I think it was implyed that Thrawn and Spock would face off on equal grounds ship-wise.

But, if the match was on even grounds, and the campaign was given time to develop, it is reasonable to expect that the weakness for Thrawn that I mentioned above could have been exploited.[/qutoe]Your assuming Spock even knows of this weakness. Its not like he knows any of these Imperials to gain their trust. Also, Rukh was a special case because the Empire betrayed his people, while Imperial crew don't have any secrets hidden for them, how would Spock turn Them against Thrawn?

Again, I don't know if Spock would have been the guy who could have explited Thrawn's weakness, but what I'm saying is that on even grounds, Thrawn's "genious" could be highly overrated if the opposition played its cards right.

You act as though he was facing outrageously underpowered starships in the Thrawn Trilogy. To the contrary the ships WERE on equal power, so this would be no different. In fact, the Empire was practically dead when he returned from the Unknown Regions, and he brought to them to their KNEES.Thrawns genious, at least in sarship combat, is anything but overrated.