If Hitler hadn't come to power...

[Kolinar Romanov]

Do not buy into the widespread historical revisionist belief that Hitler's rabid hatred of the Jews was solely his idea. He merely caught a wave and rode on it. Germany picked him, not the other way around.

Very true. In fact, it'd be an interesting thing to note that Hitler's father was an Anti-semitic, and anti-semtism was widespread.

An added note was that Hitler happened to have read up a lot on Schopenhauer.....

[Pcm979]

If Hitler hadn't come to power, then Europe would become known as the Greater German Reich under the control of Ruldolf Gloder.

[Posbi]

Do not buy into the widespread historical revisionist belief that Hitler's rabid hatred of the Jews was solely his idea. He merely caught a wave and rode on it. Germany picked him, not the other way around.

They would've taken everybody else who played the strong guy for them at that point. Anti-semitism was a widely common trait in Europe at that time, it was just that the NSDAP was able to channel all the fear and anger towards this single scapegoat that -in the end- made the holocaust possible.
It was -however- not a solely German phenomenon. All occupied countries willingly cooperated with the Allg. SS and Himmler's ministry, often so voluntarily that even the Germans were surprised. Especially Vichy France did a "good" job at that, and I don't know of any territories where the deportation of Jews sparked any form of protest. They were the scapegoats for all of Europe.


Btw, anyone able to summarize for me what Goldhagen wrote ?

[MKSheppard]

Do not buy into the widespread historical revisionist belief that Hitler's rabid hatred of the Jews was solely his idea. He merely caught a wave and rode on it. Germany picked him, not the other way around.

Ok, then give me an example of any other german leader who would
order the mass extermination of a group of people in elaborate death
camps?

[Sea Skimmer]

If Hitler hadn't come to power, then Europe would become known as the Greater German Reich under the control of Ruldolf Gloder.

For a few years perhaps. Then the fact that Germany has less then 15% of world industrial potential, and is fighting 75%+ of it whileing being bombed comes into play.

[Posbi]

Do not buy into the widespread historical revisionist belief that Hitler's rabid hatred of the Jews was solely his idea. He merely caught a wave and rode on it. Germany picked him, not the other way around.

Ok, then give me an example of any other german leader who would
order the mass extermination of a group of people in elaborate death
camps?

Tough cookie, as there is none...

[Pcm979]

If Hitler hadn't come to power, then Europe would become known as the Greater German Reich under the control of Ruldolf Gloder.

For a few years perhaps. Then the fact that Germany has less then 15% of world industrial potential, and is fighting 75%+ of it whileing being bombed comes into play.

Have you actually read Making History: A Novel or are you just viciously stamping on my statement without knowing a thing about what I'm saying?

[Dahak]

War with Germany would still have happened. The Weimar Republic was imperialistic, with designs of reversing the defeat of World War 1.


The Treaty of Versailles garaunteed that war would eventually have broken out. Germany was not willing to tolerate that treaty.


Also the hatred of the Jews did not come from Hitler. The German people were strongly anti semetic. Germans have ahd a deep hatred of Jews for centuries. The German people deeply supported Hitler and the extermination of the Jews. Read "Hitler's Willing Executioners" to find out more about this.

Goldhagen's book was more or less planned as a publicity stunt, and is very populistic. And as can be seen in his current book, isn't very thorough in his research...

[Lord MJ]

I've read "Hitler's Willing Executioners" and I can tell that at least that book has very thorough research. That book was part of a long research project we had for my ethics in International affairs class, and in addition to "HWE" we had to pull up research from other topics cooborating Goldhagen's evidence.


Lets just say there were legions of Germans waiting in the wings that wished to exterminate the Jews. Hitler was the one who actually stood up to implement those desires.

[Wedge]

War with Germany would still have happened. The Weimar Republic was imperialistic, with designs of reversing the defeat of World War 1.


The Treaty of Versailles garaunteed that war would eventually have broken out. Germany was not willing to tolerate that treaty.


Also the hatred of the Jews did not come from Hitler. The German people were strongly anti semetic. Germans have ahd a deep hatred of Jews for centuries. The German people deeply supported Hitler and the extermination of the Jews. Read "Hitler's Willing Executioners" to find out more about this.

What are you talking about?
Weimar Republic was NOT imperialistic, where did you read that? That's not true, and more, they couldn't be imperialistic even if they wanted to, they were in the ass. First in 1923 the "hyperinflation" where you could buy one litre milk for millions, that destroyed the middle class in germany, because the money had become worthless. That's also why Hitler in the same year 11 october 1923 tried to get the power through the force ("putch"). But he failed and was in jail for not more than a year.
Then came the world crisis in 1929 and germany was poor again, for a second time in the same republic. So the circumstances were good for Hitler and the NSDAP, because nobody believed in the republic anymore, and poeple got radicalized, but not only to the right (NSDAP) although to the left ("KPD" = Kommunsistische Partei Deutschland) but in the left, they hadn't a leader like Hitler who could talk to the poeple and make them believe he could do it better. I think that no-one voted only because of the anti-semitic ideals he had. And of course nobody knew he would became a dictator, even he in his early speeches like "Reichskanzler" promised, that he would try his best for the next four years, that they should give him a chance, he asked only for four years.


You say that "Germany was not willing to tolerate that treaty."
The people blamed the Weimarer Republic for accept that shitty treaty totally unfair, the only thing that was broken of the treaty was that they didn't pay all the money, because they COULDN'T.
When Hitler had become Reichskanzler, then they started to not obey that shitty treaty.


And maybe if hitler hasnt been there, the communist would have come to power, and i don't know what's worse.

[Gandalf]

To add to that hyperinflatio note, we did a study last year in Modern History, one egg cost 9 BILLION Marks.

[Lord MJ]

What are you talking about?
Weimar Republic was NOT imperialistic, where did you read that? That's not true, and more, they couldn't be imperialistic even if they wanted to, they were in the ass. First in 1923 the "hyperinflation" where you could buy one litre milk for millions, that destroyed the middle class in germany, because the money had become worthless. That's also why Hitler in the same year 11 october 1923 tried to get the power through the force ("putch"). But he failed and was in jail for not more than a year.
Then came the world crisis in 1929 and germany was poor again, for a second time in the same republic. So the circumstances were good for Hitler and the NSDAP, because nobody believed in the republic anymore, and poeple got radicalized, but not only to the right (NSDAP) although to the left ("KPD" = Kommunsistische Partei Deutschland) but in the left, they hadn't a leader like Hitler who could talk to the poeple and make them believe he could do it better. I think that no-one voted only because of the anti-semitic ideals he had. And of course nobody knew he would became a dictator, even he in his early speeches like "Reichskanzler" promised, that he would try his best for the next four years, that they should give him a chance, he asked only for four years.

The Weimar republic most certainly was Imperialistic. Almost after the end of WW1 the Germans were committed to undoing the European status quo that was established by the treaty of Versailles, and once again become a dominant power on the European continent. Undoing an international status quo is the definition of imperialism.


The Weimar republic employed numerous tactics to get around the treaty (such as rearmament by moving thier military assets and training facilities to Russia). Actively opposing Britain and France at every turn. By the time the 1930's came around, the British and the French were too afraid to challenge Weimar Germany.

Then the depression hit.

Then Hitler came to power.

Then the imperialism that Weimar started was increased by an order of magnitude.

[Dahak]

If Hitler wouldn't have come, the Weimar Republic would have been destroyed internally, anyway.
It had a very poorly designed constitution, which allowed Hitler to get so much power in the first place, and given the state of affairs in the Republic at those times, it was just a matter of time until something bad happened.