Greece may hold referendum on Eurozone membership

[Rabid]

I like the reactions to this decision I've seen so far. Basically, it comes down to "We are all in favor of Democracy, right ? Well, except when there's a chance that people will do the 'wrong choice'. 'Cause, you know, we all know you can't trust the people to make the right choice for themselves.".

" Oh my god, this guy is planning to give the chance to its people to take a decision for themselves instead of imposing the choice of those that know better ! What a populist ! This cannot stand ! Quick, kick 'em out before it's too late ! "

Meh. Really, it's just the same reaction people had when the French decided to hold a referendum on the project for an European Constitution, instead of holding the vote in the Parliament, and the people decided to vote the proposition down when the parliament would have said yes instead.

It's in situations like these that you can perceive the utter disdain the Elite (be it mediatical, political, etc...) has for the common people.

[VarrusTheEthical]

In my opinion, I think the main reason that Prime Minister Papandreou decided to blindside everyone by calling a referendum was because he's more interested in covering his own posterior rather than actually helping pull Greece out of the hole that it has dug for itself.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

This isn't fucking democracy. This is fucking mob rule! Bloody hells.

[Teebs]

According to the BBC the Greek finance minister who was negotiating the bailout wasn't informed about the referendum until afterwards. Talk about negotiating in bad faith... Naturally stock markets are plunging, it's going to be interesting to see how people here react to this news.

[Skgoa]

I am going to continue my self-imposed moratiorium on trying to correct idiots in threads about Greece, but I find myself compelled to echo Rabid: it's pretty hillarious to see the board's collective IQ drop at least 50 points every time someone so much as mentions Greece or the dept crisis.

[Thanas]

According to the BBC the Greek finance minister who was negotiating the bailout wasn't informed about the referendum until afterwards. Talk about negotiating in bad faith...

This.

[Lord Zentei]

The Communist calls for revolution don’t look nearly as far-fetched as they did six months ago. While civil war doesn’t look likely, a return to the military days must be a possibility. If the Greek people reject their entire political system and the state falls apart, what will be left? The great danger is that the people are being pushed so far that the unthinkable becomes possible.

These words are music to my ears. Yes, fearmonger and cry, your Omelas is about to be destroyed, unexpectingly, like a shock, like a thunder that wakes the ignorant in the deep night that falls on Europe. The objective laws of the development of the system that you chose - you chose, you built, you erected every day with your every breath, and let us not kid ourselves, the system you were enthusiastic bricks of - have pushed you, people of Greece, to the brink where "unthinkable" becomes possible. Instead of solving problems, the strong and mighty inside and outside your nation pacified and placated you with cheap credits, covering themselves with bribes and cheap credit until the whole house of cards collapsed. Let fear and chaos make politicians tremble, let the very foundations of the system shake.

Twenty years of Greece's membership in the EMU gave it nothing but social disintegration, neoliberal recipes, complete destruction of society. The time has come to set the record straight.

Laying it on a bit thick, Stas?

In other news, Democracy implies that people collectively take responsibility for their own actions. If Greece refuses the measures, then you can't force it on them. And of course the people should be permitted to vote on it, but then they must live with the consequences of that choice. If they become too much of a burden for the others, then of course they can be kicked out. Cuts both ways, etc.

EDIT: Well, except for this:

According to the BBC the Greek finance minister who was negotiating the bailout wasn't informed about the referendum until afterwards. Talk about negotiating in bad faith...

This.

In any case, bureaucratic edifices have never particularly appealed to me, so I don't especially shed many tears over the EU, it is NOT the be-all, end-all of trade and liberalism by any stretch of the imagination.

[Minischoles]

This decision wasn't about democracy at all, don't delude yourself into thinking his decision was anything more than an attempt at political ass covering that he didn't even clear with his own party. It was a moronic move from the Greek PM that he literally just came up with on his own before he stepped off the plane - thankfully it seems his own party are going to stop it happening.

[Lord Zentei]

This decision wasn't about democracy at all, don't delude yourself into thinking his decision was anything more than an attempt at political ass covering that he didn't even clear with his own party. It was a moronic move from the Greek PM that he literally just came up with on his own before he stepped off the plane - thankfully it seems his own party are going to stop it happening.

Obviously it was political ass covering. That doesn't change the fact that the people of Greece might have a different opinion on accepting this deal.

[Skgoa]

I am going to continue my self-imposed moratiorium on trying to correct idiots in threads about Greece, but I find myself compelled to echo Rabid: it's pretty hillarious to see the board's collective IQ drop at least 50 points every time someone so much as mentions Greece or the dept crisis.

Derp crisis, indeed.

ghetto edit: It's pretty hillarious to see the board's collective IQ drop at least 50 points every time someone so much as mentions Greece or the debt euro crisis.

[Thanas]

Well, clearly making smug assertions is a great way to increase the IQ.

[VarrusTheEthical]

Well, clearly making smug assertions is a great way to increase the IQ.

I don't know about you, but I can't really think of a better way to trumpet one's own intellectual superiority without actually saying anything intelligent.

[Lord Zentei]

Well, clearly making smug assertions is a great way to increase the IQ.

I don't know about you, but I can't really think of a better way to trumpet one's own intellectual superiority without actually saying anything intelligent.

I don't even know who they were directing those barbs at, so I'm not sure who is supposed to be offended/attempting to make a rebuttal in any case.

[VarrusTheEthical]

I don't even know who they were directing those barbs at, so I'm not sure who is supposed to be offended/attempting to make a rebuttal in any case.

Not at Thanas, if that's what you're thinking. Sorry for the confusion.

[Lord Zentei]

I don't even know who they were directing those barbs at, so I'm not sure who is supposed to be offended/attempting to make a rebuttal in any case.

Not at Thanas, if that's what you're thinking. Sorry for the confusion.

Eh? I didn't know that you had made any barbs, on review, it looks like Skoga only. I had said "they" because I hadn't noticed that Skoga was quoting himself and not someone else. But whatever.

[VarrusTheEthical]

Eh? I didn't know that you had made any barbs, on review, it looks like Skoga only. I had said "they" because I hadn't noticed that Skoga was quoting himself and not someone else. But whatever.

I misread your post and responded to something you didn't actually say, my bad.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Heads of the General Staffs of the Greek Armed Forces and council of National Defence quietly sacked while the Prime Minister announced the referendum.

Top brass replaced
1 Nov 2011
(File photo)
(File photo)
In a surprise move, on Tuesday evening the defence minister replaced the country’s top brass.

An extraordinary meeting of the Government Council of Foreign Affairs and Defence (Kysea), which comprises the prime minister and other key cabinet members, accepted Defence Minister Panos Beglitis' proposal that the following changes be made to army, navy and air force and the general staff:

General Ioannis Giagkos, chief of the Greek National Defence General Staff, to be replaced by Lieutenant General Michalis Kostarakos
Lieutenant General Fragkos Fragkoulis, chief of the Greek Army General Staff, to be replaced by lieutenant general Konstantinos Zazias
Lieutenant General Vasilios Klokozas, chief of the Greek Air Force, to be replaced by air marshal Antonis Tsantirakis
Vice-Admiral Dimitrios Elefsiniotis, chief of the Greek Navy General Staff, to be replaced by Rear-Admiral Kosmas Christidis

It is understood that the personnel changes took many members of the government and of the armed forces by surprise.

Opposition reacts

The decison drew strong reaction from opposition parties. Main opposition New Democracy (ND) defence spokesman Margaritis Tzimas spoke of "an undemocratic act which is directed against national interest", adding that "at the time when the Pasok government is collapsing, it is proceeding with ... changes in the leadership of the country's armed forces". He said that his party would not recognise the decisions.

The Communist Party of Greece (KKE) called on the minister and the government to give clear explanations to the people on why they replaced the armed forces leadership under these conditions.

The Popular Orthodox Rally (Laos) termed the appointments "politically indecent and morally unacceptable" and added that "a few hours before the government's fall, the leadership of the armed forces has been broken up in its entirety."

Lastly, a Radical Left Coalition (Syriza) official said it was unacceptable for the defence minister to decide on such an important issue at a time when the government is facing collapse. (Athens News, AMNA)

I have heard claims elsewhere that the replacements are viewed in Greece as inexperienced political lapdogs of PASOK, can anyone confirm this among our Greek posters? It looks almost like, from the timing and unprecedented nature of what happened, that Europe has not, to quote from ST VI, "run out of history yet".

[Thanas]

Most likely to prevent a coup or to get the army ready in case there are riots.

[Surlethe]

Looks like Greece is getting ready to jump ship.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

This decision wasn't about democracy at all, don't delude yourself into thinking his decision was anything more than an attempt at political ass covering that he didn't even clear with his own party. It was a moronic move from the Greek PM that he literally just came up with on his own before he stepped off the plane - thankfully it seems his own party are going to stop it happening.

Obviously it was political ass covering. That doesn't change the fact that the people of Greece might have a different opinion on accepting this deal.

There is a fine line between democracy and mob rule.

[Simon_Jester]

Yes. On the other hand, there's a fine line between representative government and oligarchy, if the rulers aren't held accountable for drastic policy decisions that hurt the citizens.

If I were Greek, I don't know how I would feel about the debt deal, but I would definitely want a word with my elected representative about exactly what they were thinking, and why, and how they think the deal serves the interest of themselves and their countrymen. The fact that the current Greek government is in such danger of collapse is a sign of this happening- the Greek people are not satisfied with the quality of representation they're getting. That may not just be because of the debt deal, either.

When representatives are heading in a direction no one wants them to go, then it starts making more sense to call for referenda and new rounds of elections before proceeding with major policy steps.

[Narkis]

I have heard claims elsewhere that the replacements are viewed in Greece as inexperienced political lapdogs of PASOK, can anyone confirm this among our Greek posters? It looks almost like, from the timing and unprecedented nature of what happened, that Europe has not, to quote from ST VI, "run out of history yet".

I can confirm that.

Most likely to prevent a coup or to get the army ready in case there are riots.

If the government uses the army to quell riots, the parliament will burn. Memory of the junta is much too fresh to allow it.

[K. A. Pital]

Laying it on a bit thick, Stas?

You party-pooper! I spent some time inventing the correct phrases for that paragraph.

In other news, Democracy implies that people collectively take responsibility for their own actions. If Greece refuses the measures, then you can't force it on them. And of course the people should be permitted to vote on it, but then they must live with the consequences of that choice. If they become too much of a burden for the others, then of course they can be kicked out. Cuts both ways, etc.

Yeah, I think that this is a most sensible position. I'm not sure you can keep someone in the EU if he doesn't want it. But if he does, he has to accept the terms of staying, which may include unpleasant things. In my view, you just can't make these decisions relying on the government alone. So perhaps Greece has it right with the referendum, even if it is just an ass-covering attempt by PASOK and Papandreou, none of which rank high on my sympathy list. Not that I'd be crying over the EU either, I'd just be mildly inconvenienced by slight complications to cross-border travel (and that's only if we're talking about a general complete EU collapse, a highly unlikely event, not just a deconstruction of the monetary union alone, which makes more sense).

[Skgoa]

I don't even know who they were directing those barbs at, so I'm not sure who is supposed to be offended/attempting to make a rebuttal in any case.

Not at Thanas, if that's what you're thinking. Sorry for the confusion.

Eh? I didn't know that you had made any barbs, on review, it looks like Skoga only. I had said "they" because I hadn't noticed that Skoga was quoting himself and not someone else. But whatever.

Oh, I didn't mean to, either. But I wanted to express my support for Rabid's sentiment. It's just something I had wanted to say in any thread on this subject we had.

[Thanas]

The question for all who are in favor of the referendum: How is it going to help Greece to potentially exit the EMU? After all, the foreign debt would still be held in Euro.