The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

[weemadando]

So anyone else see the footage from Tulsa (i believe) of the officer grabbing a guy sitting on the ground by the hair, pulling the head back and pepper spraying him in the face?

And then the deputy chief saying that only people actively resisting arrest were sprayed.

That guy was resisting the shit out of that cop. Sitting crosslegged on the ground and neither him, nor those around them even lifting a finger in self defense. I'm amazed that with that level of violent resistance the cop managed to not draw down and kill him in an act of self preservation.

[Kamakazie Sith]

So anyone else see the footage from Tulsa (i believe) of the officer grabbing a guy sitting on the ground by the hair, pulling the head back and pepper spraying him in the face?

And then the deputy chief saying that only people actively resisting arrest were sprayed.

That guy was resisting the shit out of that cop. Sitting crosslegged on the ground and neither him, nor those around them even lifting a finger in self defense. I'm amazed that with that level of violent resistance the cop managed to not draw down and kill him in an act of self preservation.

Wow. That's ridiculous. Do you have a link to the video? I haven't seen it.

[Eleas]

So anyone else see the footage from Tulsa (i believe) of the officer grabbing a guy sitting on the ground by the hair, pulling the head back and pepper spraying him in the face?

And then the deputy chief saying that only people actively resisting arrest were sprayed.

That guy was resisting the shit out of that cop. Sitting crosslegged on the ground and neither him, nor those around them even lifting a finger in self defense. I'm amazed that with that level of violent resistance the cop managed to not draw down and kill him in an act of self preservation.

Wow. That's ridiculous. Do you have a link to the video? I haven't seen it.

Is this it?

[Agent Fisher]

Uh, ok, if that's it, I'm not really seeing the big issue. To me, they tilted his head back, gave him a brief blast of pepper and then pulled him out of the group. Doesn't seem that outrageous to me. Looked ot me like they were all sitting with their arms linked, but I could be wrong, and a tiny bit of pepper spray would be the ideal way to get them to break the link. Unlike tasers or impact weapons ,a bit of pepper spray is easily treated and taken care of. You just use plain water to wash it out.

[Phantasee]

Edmonton's group is a little stupid, in my opinion. They occupied a park that is actually private property of Melcor, and Melcor let them protest at first but asked them to leave when it looked like they were settling down. The protestors refused, and when Melcor finally got around to getting them formally evicted, the protestors said they'd leave on their own terms. That doesn't help with the perception that they're being petulant children instead of legitimate protestors with legitimate grievances.

How many of these Occupy movements are occupying public spaces and not private property?

The problem is that a lot of cities sold public spaces to private companies with the understanding that those parks would remain open to public use. IIRC, in most places they are actually prohibited from closing it to the public and require local laws/ordnances changed in order to kick out protesters. Basically the protesters are occupying public spaces owned by private entities and not "normal" private spaces.

This makes a big difference in my opinion.

I am almost certain that this isn't a public park sold to a private entity. This is in the heart of Edmonton's financial district, such as it is. Melcor has just let it be a park until they can put a building up on it, instead of turning it into another unattractive parking lot in the downtown core.

[Keevan_Colton]

You just use plain water to wash it out.

The chemicals are not water soluble. Do you actually know anything about the chemistry and medical impact of this stuff or are you just waffling without a clue?

[Agent Fisher]

Nothing about chemistry, not really. My knowledge comes from carrying pepper spray at work and having been doused repeatedly during training events. And they way we deal with it is use plain water to flush the area. I probably should have said it helps negate the burning, doesn't actually completely wash it out and you need to keep the water on it continuously for awhile, you need sudecon wipes to really take care of it right away.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Well you just contradicted yourself, Fisher. Why the hell should we trust anything else you say? That shit is a chemical weapon designed precisely and explicitly to be torture in a can, after all. It's being used blatantly unconstitutionally as extrajudicial punishment, resisting arrest or no. The documentation of its illegal unconstitutional abuse is all over youtube and more documentation shows up every time the cops have anything to do with Occupy. Keevan is right. It doesn't just 'wash out' with water. You need an antacid like tums or alka selzer to treat it, and I hear they're coming up with newer formulas for the pepper spray to resist even that.

Either way, your argument is invalid. The Oakland cops shot a Marine combat veteran in the fucking head then grenaded him right afterward, after all. That is completely unforgivable, and anyone who supports it or the bankers who scammed us then ordered the cops to shoot us for getting angry has been rendered completely and permanently invalid. There is NO defense!

[Agent Fisher]

Did I fucking say that I supported the Oakland cops that shot the Marine vet? No, I didn't. Did I say that I supported police abuse? No, I didn't. I subscripe to the Col Grossman view of the world, sheep, wolves and sheepdog. I believe no one that is a sheepdog (military, law enforcement, responsible armed citizen, whatever) should ever be allowed to get away with abuse.

So, fuck off, I'm not talking about Oakland. I'm talking about OC spray being used as the most non-agressive way of helping to seperate those being arrested. It's a far more humane choice than being bashed with a baton, or shot with probes and zapped with a taser. Or fuck, it's more humane than using choke holds or wrestling someone down and dragging them off.

And yes, OC spray is a chemical weapon, designed to incapacitate through discomfort and yes, pain.

[Losonti Tokash]

So, you have a small group of people sitting down, who have announced both their intention to remain regardless and their intentions of both non-violence and non-resistance. I also fail to see how the curfew law is not in fact a violation of their rights to peaceably assemble for a redress of grievances. But anyway.

Clearly the only solution to this group that has literally said they will not resist the police or react with violence is the "non-aggressive" tactic of throwing them to the ground and pepper spraying them. Naturally, if any of the protesters were asthmatic or had other respiratory problem, it would probably be their own fault.

Bonus points for placing the protesters in a prone position, maximizing their chances of positional asphyxiation.

Finally, tear gas or pepper spray are perfectly capable of causing burns or death under the right conditions, such as those seen here: porous clothing and being placed in a prone position.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Well look, if Rosa Parks didn't want to be maced, she should have just given up her seat and stopped obstructing white traffic, which is quite clearly against the law. In the end it's her own damn fault and I can't blame the police for it.

[Uraniun235]

It's also worth mentioning that if those same marines use tear gas against Iraqi soldiers, it would be a violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention.

Yes, but where the CWC specifically forbids the use of "riot control agents as a method of warfare", it specifically permits it for "domestic riot control purposes".

This is not intended to defend or justify the use of tear gas, but rather to clarify that the people who drafted the CWC were quite aware that they were setting up a double standard wherein you can legally treat your own citizens more harshly than enemy soldiers.

[Losonti Tokash]

In other news, a group of Oakland police set upon another veteran and beat him hard enough to give him a lacerated spleen, and didn't take him to the hospital until 6pm the next day.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/no ... an-injured

A second Iraq war veteran has suffered serious injuries after clashes between police and Occupy movement protesters in Oakland.

Kayvan Sabehgi, who served in Iraq and Afghanistan, is in intensive care with a lacerated spleen. He says he was beaten by police close to the Occupy Oakland camp, but despite suffering agonising pain, did not reach hospital until 18 hours later.

Sabehgi, 32, is the second Iraq war veteran to be hospitalised following involvement in Oakland protests. Another protester, Scott Olsen, suffered a fractured skull on 25 October.

On Wednesday night, police used teargas and non-lethal projectiles to drive back protesters following an attempt by the Occupy supporters to shut down the city of Oakland.

Sabehgi told the Guardian from hospital he was walking alone along 14th Street in central Oakland – away from the main area of clashes – when he was injured.

"There was a group of police in front of me," he told the Guardian from his hospital bed. "They told me to move, but I was like: 'Move to where?' There was nowhere to move.

"Then they lined up in front of me. I was talking to one of them, saying 'Why are you doing this?' when one moved forward and hit me in my arm and legs and back with his baton. Then three or four cops tackled me and arrested me."

Sabeghi, who left the army in 2007 and now part-owns a small bar-restaurant in El Cerrito, about 10 miles north of Oakland, said he was handcuffed and placed in a police van for three hours before being taken to jail. By the time he got there he was in "unbelievable pain".

He said: "My stomach was really hurting, and it got worse to the point where I couldn't stand up.

"I was on my hands and knees and crawled over the cell door to call for help."

A nurse was called and recommended Sabehgi take a suppository, but he said he "didn't want to take it".

He was allowed to "crawl" to another cell to use the toilet, but said it was clogged.

"I was vomiting and had diarrhoea," Sabehgi said. "I just lay there in pain for hours."

Sabehgi's bail was posted in the mid-afternoon, but he said he was unable to leave his cell because of the pain. The cell door was closed, and he remained on the floor until 6pm, when an ambulance was called.

He was taken to Highland hospital – the same hospital where Olsen was originally taken after being hit in the head by a projectile apparently fired by police.

Sabehgi was due to undergo surgery on Friday afternoon to repair his spleen, which would involve using a clot or patch to prevent internal bleeding.

Thousands of protesters had attended the action in Oakland on Wednesday, taking over the downtown area of the city and blockading Oakland's port.

As demonstrations continued near the camp base at Frank H Ogawa plaza during the evening, a group of protesters occupied a disused building on 16th Street at around 10.30pm, with some climbing up onto the roof.

There had been little police presence during the day, but more than 200 officers arrived after 11pm. Some protesters had set fire to a hastily assembled barrier at the corner of 16th Street and Telegraph, in a bid to prevent access to the occupied building, but police drove demonstrators away from 16th Street using tear gas, flashbang grenades, and non-lethal rounds.

Sabehgi said he had not been in the occupied building, and was walking away from the main area of trouble when he was injured.

He said he had his arms folded and was "totally peaceful" before being arrested.

A spokeswoman for Highland hospital confirmed Sabehgi had been admitted. Oakland police were not immediately available for comment.

[Losonti Tokash]

-

[Simon_Jester]

This is not intended to defend or justify the use of tear gas, but rather to clarify that the people who drafted the CWC were quite aware that they were setting up a double standard wherein you can legally treat your own citizens more harshly than enemy soldiers.

I take exception to the underlined part.

The last time someone in the US treated their own citizens more harshly than enemy soldiers was... fuck, I have a hard time thinking of an example. When enemy soldiers show up, you hose them down with bullets until they're torn to bits on the ground or until they run away. We don't do that to protestors.

Riot control gases were invented as an answer to the question "what do you do with an angry crowd that won't go away?" There's always going to be a social need to disperse angry mobs- not all crowds are good things to have around, no matter who's in charge or what the aspirations of the people are.

It used to be, the answer was to send in soldiers who would form up, fix bayonets, and just march at the crowd. If the crowd didn't get the memo and tried to stay in place (or couldn't run), people got shot or stabbed. Riot control agents- flashbangs, gas, you name it- are a less bad solution than this. They really are.

[SVPD]

Keevan is right. It doesn't just 'wash out' with water. You need an antacid like tums or alka selzer to treat it, and I hear they're coming up with newer formulas for the pepper spray to resist even that.

No, actually Keevan is not right; he's shooting his mouth off and making dumbass comments about the "chemistry" to make it sounds like he actually has a clue what he's talking about.

The stuff doesn't need to be water-soluble, chemically speaking. The water washes it away through mechanical action. It's going to burn for 45 minutes or so, tops, and that depending on the person who is hit, and the conditions under which it occurs. The active ingrediant is cayanne (sp?) pepper extract and the individual little particles are "spikey"; the water doesn't dissovle them, it pushes them away mechanically.

I know this because getting hit with it is part of the training to carry it, and I've been hit with it as part of that process. It is not "designed to be chemical torture in a can" or whatever other melodramatic bullshit you can come up with. It is designed to incapacitate temporarily. You do not need antacids for proper decontamination, although things like baby shampoo do help. Water will do the job by itself.

As for what you've heard about designs for decontamination-resistant types, I'd be really interested to know where you "hear" that. Such a thing would serve no purpose whatsoever.

Furthermore, whether it's a "chemical weapon" or not is irrelevant; the mere fact that it's technically a chemical weapon does not somehow put it wither morally or legally in the same category as lethal chemical weapons, regardless of the fact that under certain circumstances with certain people it might possibly be fatal.

If you want to argue the proper use of it in any given situation, knock yourself out, but quit pretending like being pepper sprayed is some horrendous fate.

[madd0ct0r]

In other news, a group of Oakland police set upon another veteran and beat him hard enough to give him a lacerated spleen, and didn't take him to the hospital until 6pm the next day.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/no ... an-injured

... but police drove demonstrators away from 16th Street using tear gas, flashbang grenades, and non-lethal rounds.
...

given what's happened already with Olsen, i think the term less-lethal rounds would be more appropriate.

secondly - What the fuck is going on in Oakland? Are the police actively looking for trouble or just incompetent? If this was the Uk that incident would be on CCTV, and be extremely embarrassing if his account is true. Any other way to corroborate it?

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

In other news, a group of Oakland police set upon another veteran and beat him hard enough to give him a lacerated spleen, and didn't take him to the hospital until 6pm the next day.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/no ... an-injured

... but police drove demonstrators away from 16th Street using tear gas, flashbang grenades, and non-lethal rounds.
...

This is completely fucking deliberate. The goddamn cops are making it obvious they want a war, and they're not hiding the fact they're the ones starting it! To hell with them!

[Knife]

In other news, a group of Oakland police set upon another veteran and beat him hard enough to give him a lacerated spleen, and didn't take him to the hospital until 6pm the next day.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/no ... an-injured

... but police drove demonstrators away from 16th Street using tear gas, flashbang grenades, and non-lethal rounds.
...

This is completely fucking deliberate. The goddamn cops are making it obvious they want a war, and they're not hiding the fact they're the ones starting it! To hell with them!

LOL *fatcat banker cackles with glee*

We can get the working class stiffs to fight with the working class stiffs.


Cops are doing their jobs, if one or some step out of line sue em. Don't make it a war between protestors and cops, keep to the message about the 99% (which blue collar cops are definitely part of) and the 1%ers.

[Block]

In other news, a group of Oakland police set upon another veteran and beat him hard enough to give him a lacerated spleen, and didn't take him to the hospital until 6pm the next day.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/no ... an-injured

... but police drove demonstrators away from 16th Street using tear gas, flashbang grenades, and non-lethal rounds.
...

This is completely fucking deliberate. The goddamn cops are making it obvious they want a war, and they're not hiding the fact they're the ones starting it! To hell with them!

Will you stop trolling up the threads with your overly dramatic bullshit, please? There are clearly some who are stepping over the line, but the VAST majority are not, or you'd see a river of blood on the streets of Oakland. The individuals, on both sides because there are definitely morons on the side of the protestors trying to stir things up, who are responsible should be held accountable. That does not make it a war. You have no idea what war is, clearly.

[Losonti Tokash]

Knife has got it perfectly right. The police aren't our enemies. We're being set against each other, but that's why it's important to maintain non-violence when dealing with the police. We're not going to win them over starting fires or smashing the cruisers. That's part of why we're all working on teaching people to recognize infiltrators and deal with people that are destructive to the movement.

[Flagg]

What about the cops who enjoy bashing skulls in?

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

You know what, Los and Knife? Good points, both of you. The fatcats are indeed directing us against each other just like they've done for decades: white vs black, gay vs straight, man vs woman; all of it. As even I've said, there are Angels and Assholes in every group under the sun. Our fight is not with the cops even if they make their fight with us. They're in just as much debt slavery as the rest of us, or they'd all have instant attacks of conscience after the first baton lands.

And Block, fuck off.

[Losonti Tokash]

What about the cops who enjoy bashing skulls in?

"And, my friends, in this story you have a history of this entire movement. First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. And then they attack you and want to burn you. And then they build monuments to you. And that, is what is going to happen to the Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America."

[Block]

What about the cops who enjoy bashing skulls in?

They should be identified and sued/tossed in jail. It's unfortunate that the way the justice system tends to work in the US, they'll have a much harder time getting away with beating white people on camera than they do with beating up minorities. Obviously this isn't the way it should work, but if the guilty get punished... one thing at a time I guess.