The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

[madd0ct0r]

they're irritating individuals, just like certain protestors who turn up with a couple of bricks and a bad temper.

It's our job to clamp down on them before they get a chance to chuck stuff, and it's the police's job to clamp down on thugs that skipped the training.
Like the chief who ordered the 2nd amendment be read at each police station every day during the protests and ignored the mayor trying to stir things up. I forget the location becuase we haven't been getting storys of people getting their faces broken, on either side. which is better then the shit storm brewing in Oakland right now.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

What about the cops who enjoy bashing skulls in?

They should be identified and sued/tossed in jail. It's unfortunate that the way the justice system tends to work in the US, they'll have a much harder time getting away with beating white people on camera than they do with beating up minorities. Obviously this isn't the way it should work, but if the guilty get punished... one thing at a time I guess.

I owe you an apology for telling you to fuck off, actually. You just about nailed it this time. I'm hoping we get real meaningful change out of this damn mess, and I especially hope we realize the goal of truly equal representation before the law.

In other news, Scott Walker gives a speech when a wild a mic check appears.



It's super effective!

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

they're irritating individuals, just like certain protestors who turn up with a couple of bricks and a bad temper.

It's our job to clamp down on them before they get a chance to chuck stuff, and it's the police's job to clamp down on thugs that skipped the training.
Like the chief who ordered the 2nd amendment be read at each police station every day during the protests and ignored the mayor trying to stir things up. I forget the location becuase we haven't been getting storys of people getting their faces broken, on either side. which is better then the shit storm brewing in Oakland right now.

First Amendment, actually. Let's not have this go into Second Amendment territory. I've seen that show before, and it was horrific. Never again!

[Block]

Apology accepted. I realize it's an emotional issue, for a lot of people, I just think remaining calm while expressing that frustration in things like the Occupations, and this disrupting of Walker's speech, and various other activities is really important, because otherwise it's really easy to dismiss people as being irrational or a raving liberal or whatever other labels get thrown around.

[Eulogy]

The thugs in the Oakland Police department need to be sued and punished by the vets they practically tortured. I also hope Anonymous identifies them and releases their addresses et al. This is disgusting and they obviously want a fight, if not with the military, then with the laypeople which WILL end badly for them. The Blue Wall can't stand up to the wrath of the city, after all.

Lawyers are going to have a field day with the pigs.

[Block]

The thugs in the Oakland Police department need to be sued and punished by the vets they practically tortured. I also hope Anonymous identifies them and releases their addresses et al. This is disgusting and they obviously want a fight, if not with the military, then with the laypeople which WILL end badly for them. The Blue Wall can't stand up to the wrath of the city, after all.

Lawyers are going to have a field day with the pigs.

Why isn't identifying them enough, allowing them to be sued and or charged? Isn't justice enough or do we really have to stray into threatening people's families too?

[Eulogy]

The thugs in the Oakland Police department need to be sued and punished by the vets they practically tortured. I also hope Anonymous identifies them and releases their addresses et al. This is disgusting and they obviously want a fight, if not with the military, then with the laypeople which WILL end badly for them. The Blue Wall can't stand up to the wrath of the city, after all.

Lawyers are going to have a field day with the pigs.

Why isn't identifying them enough, allowing them to be sued and or charged? Isn't justice enough or do we really have to stray into threatening people's families too?

Did I say their families, if they even have any, deserved to be punished? If Anonymous has to identify them because the police department won't, then well, it's unfortunate but necessary.

[Block]

The thugs in the Oakland Police department need to be sued and punished by the vets they practically tortured. I also hope Anonymous identifies them and releases their addresses et al. This is disgusting and they obviously want a fight, if not with the military, then with the laypeople which WILL end badly for them. The Blue Wall can't stand up to the wrath of the city, after all.

Lawyers are going to have a field day with the pigs.

Why isn't identifying them enough, allowing them to be sued and or charged? Isn't justice enough or do we really have to stray into threatening people's families too?

Did I say their families, if they even have any, deserved to be punished? If Anonymous has to identify them because the police department won't, it's unfortunate but necessary.

Generally posting addresses, SSNs, bank account numbers, phone numbers, etc. threatens more than just the person involved. What if they post one of the officer's addresses and someone decides to go pay them a visit? Again, identify and put their badge number out there, all for it, the other stuff, not so much.

[Eulogy]

Generally posting addresses, SSNs, bank account numbers, phone numbers, etc. threatens more than just the person involved. What if they post one of the officer's addresses and someone decides to go pay them a visit? Again, identify and put their badge number out there, all for it, the other stuff, not so much.

It was more along the lines of people protesting (NOT harassing) the thug's treatment of other people and condemning letters, as well as keeping people away from where he lives. Yes, information is a double-edged sword, but that doesn't mean people can't and shouldn't use it properly and ethically.

[loomer]

So at this point, is anyone else concerned about the possibility of angrier, less-pacifistic veterans joining the protests in a big way? Olsen was an isolated incident, but this is forming a pattern, and it could lead to things getting ugly.

[Broomstick]

They should be identified and sued/tossed in jail. It's unfortunate that the way the justice system tends to work in the US, they'll have a much harder time getting away with beating white people on camera than they do with beating up minorities. Obviously this isn't the way it should work, but if the guilty get punished... one thing at a time I guess.

That is one reason why white participation in the civil rights movement for all was so crucial. People who could stomach black people being beaten and attacked by dogs on camera were not so stoic when the people getting the beat down looked more like their own kids and relatives. While things have improved they still aren't perfect. Likewise, people who can stomach the “lazy” or “shiftless” unemployed getting beaten/injured might get outraged over military veterans getting the same treatment for exercising the first amendment, as we've seen in some of the reaction to vets getting seriously hurt. I don't want anyone to get hurt, but if someone does then film it and use it to advantage.

I realize it's an emotional issue, for a lot of people, I just think remaining calm while expressing that frustration in things like the Occupations, and this disrupting of Walker's speech, and various other activities is really important, because otherwise it's really easy to dismiss people as being irrational or a raving liberal or whatever other labels get thrown around.

Yes, it's very emotional. And it's about damned time people got this upset about things! However, while we do need that emotion and passion it's extremely important that our actions in response to that emotion be rational and measured. Of course, not everyone is up to that particular task, but part of acting in a group is relying on peer pressure to maintain certain types of conduct. It's easier to be brave when there are others standing next to you.

The thugs in the Oakland Police department need to be sued and punished by the vets they practically tortured. I also hope Anonymous identifies them and releases their addresses et al

Very bad idea. Doing that will also wind up targeting the families of the police, who are innocent in this matter. Given that tempers are rising, retributions against cops seen as the enemy are a real possibility. Don't make that easier for the thugs on the OWS side. Targeting a police officer is one thing – like it or not, police officers are aware that they put themselves at risk on the job. Targeting their families will only make the Blue Wall close ranks.

There is also the problem that, in the past, people releasing names, “addresses, et al” have released wrong information or the information of people with similar name to the intended target. That would mean people entirely innocent of the matter becoming targets.

Don't do this. It's a bad idea. Talk about thuggery...

If Anonymous has to identify them because the police department won't, then well, it's unfortunate but necessary.

Because you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet, right, and if a few toddlers spawned of dirty cops die horribly because someone decides to firebomb a cop's house that's OK because the end justifies the means?

NO.

I'm sorry, that is NOT acceptable. The ethical battle – and make no mistake, there IS a battle of ethics in this conflict – will be won only if the OWS/99% side can be morally superior to their opposition. That's one of the strengths of non-violent protesting, that the protesters do not allow themselves to be provoked to violence. They do not respond with violence even when beaten. They remain silent (or chant in unison) so they do not engage in verbal violence.

If the price of holding to a higher ethic is that some of the guilty go free so be it – it is, in your words, unfortunate but necessary. It is better to effect real change for the 99% than to hunt down and engage in vendetta against the 1% and their lackeys. The goal here is a better world, not vindictiveness and revenge.

So at this point, is anyone else concerned about the possibility of angrier, less-pacifistic veterans joining the protests in a big way? Olsen was an isolated incident, but this is forming a pattern, and it could lead to things getting ugly.

I feel it is inevitable there will arise a fringe/border element of nastiness and violence, just as we saw in the 50's and 60's. Things WILL get ugly. We already have blood on the ground, there will be more. We are starting to see escalation as the 1% figure out that mocking the 99% won't make them go away, and winter weather won't make them go away, and that basically they won't go away (those damned dirty peasants). People will die before this is over.

[Lord Zentei]

You know what, Los and Knife? Good points, both of you. The fatcats are indeed directing us against each other just like they've done for decades: white vs black, gay vs straight, man vs woman; all of it. As even I've said, there are Angels and Assholes in every group under the sun. Our fight is not with the cops even if they make their fight with us. They're in just as much debt slavery as the rest of us, or they'd all have instant attacks of conscience after the first baton lands.

You make it sound as if racism, homophobia and sexism were all a great conspiracy by rich to keep people in line. Of course, the truth is that people in general have a tendency to divide themselves into opposing groups and hate each other without prompting. Let's not try to shift the blame for our own fucked-upness.

[Broomstick]

In other news, Scott Walker gives a speech when a wild a mic check appears.



It's super effective!

Oh, my - I really liked that. So much better than shouting outside the room in a hallway.

Well, guess it's time to get out my Birkenstocks, daishikis, peace symbol, and indian braids. Einy, you're on "magic brownie" detail, m'kay?

[Civil War Man]

You make it sound as if racism, homophobia and sexism were all a great conspiracy by rich to keep people in line. Of course, the truth is that people in general have a tendency to divide themselves into opposing groups and hate each other without prompting. Let's not try to shift the blame for our own fucked-upness.

The rich did not create it, but they have certainly taken advantage of and fomented it (especially racism) in order to maintain power. It was extremely common during the Gilded Age to pit poor whites against poor blacks to keep them from uniting, organizing, and pushing for reforms that would have helped them.

[Bakustra]

You make it sound as if racism, homophobia and sexism were all a great conspiracy by rich to keep people in line. Of course, the truth is that people in general have a tendency to divide themselves into opposing groups and hate each other without prompting. Let's not try to shift the blame for our own fucked-upness.

The rich did not create it, but they have certainly taken advantage of and fomented it (especially racism) in order to maintain power. It was extremely common during the Gilded Age to pit poor whites against poor blacks to keep them from uniting, organizing, and pushing for reforms that would have helped them.

It goes back even further: the sheer extent of anti-black and anti-Native racism in the US has been attributed to 18th century efforts by elites to destroy any sense of class solidarity between poor whites and slaves/free blacks and to prevent people from adopting Native American traditions and lifestyles, both of which happened on local scales throughout the time period.

[Lord Zentei]

Sounds like a lot of blame shifting. Did they benefit from it? Sure, but that's not the reason it happened.

[Kamakazie Sith]

It was more along the lines of people protesting (NOT harassing) the thug's treatment of other people and condemning letters, as well as keeping people away from where he lives. Yes, information is a double-edged sword, but that doesn't mean people can't and shouldn't use it properly and ethically.

That's the problem with making that information available on the internet. People that will use it improperly and unethically will have access to it. That's why this information is private. I'm with you on their names and badge numbers. Identify these officers but personal information needs to stay personal.

[Bakustra]

Sounds like a lot of blame shifting. Did they benefit from it? Sure, but that's not the reason it happened.

So what is the alternate mechanism you are proposing for the shift between people regularly entering Native society in preference to English colonial society and people rejecting the Natives as "savages" entirely? Or for the increase in racial mistrust and hatred during that same time period? "Lololol I'm an elitist, fuck the public"? "Historical imperative"? "Manifest Destiny"? Or are we going with "Sometimes things just happen," today?

[Lord Zentei]

Sounds like a lot of blame shifting. Did they benefit from it? Sure, but that's not the reason it happened.

So what is the alternate mechanism you are proposing for the shift between people regularly entering Native society in preference to English colonial society and people rejecting the Natives as "savages" entirely? Or for the increase in racial mistrust and hatred during that same time period? "Lololol I'm an elitist, fuck the public"? "Historical imperative"? "Manifest Destiny"? Or are we going with "Sometimes things just happen," today?

Ahahaha! Right, because all of The People are a monolithic bloc, and if there's a change in attitudes, then it must be a great big conspiracy of some sort by The Man to keep us all down. But here's simple mechanism:

A) Population growth in white areas.
B) White people want more land.
C) Natives have it.

Incidentally, the Manifest Destiny dates back to Thomas Jefferson. Just FYI.

[Bakustra]

So what is the alternate mechanism you are proposing for the shift between people regularly entering Native society in preference to English colonial society and people rejecting the Natives as "savages" entirely? Or for the increase in racial mistrust and hatred during that same time period? "Lololol I'm an elitist, fuck the public"? "Historical imperative"? "Manifest Destiny"? Or are we going with "Sometimes things just happen," today?

Ahahaha! Right, because all of The People are a monolithic bloc, and if there's a change in attitudes, then it must be a great big conspiracy of some sort by The Man to keep us all down. But here's simple mechanism:

A) Population growth in white areas.
B) White people want more land.
C) Natives have it.

Incidentally, the Manifest Destiny dates back to Thomas Jefferson. Just FYI.

I'm talking about the not infrequent departure of people from colonial society into Native society, which happened regularly during the 18th century, and did not happen during the 19th century, and so there was clearly a transition between these states which cannot be explained by population pressures alone, you fucking idiot. Because this departure was sufficiently acceptable that people did it regularly enough for statutes banning it to be passed in the 18th century, but largely unthinkable past the early 19th century, as only a small minority of people actually performed it voluntarily, and that requires some explanation. Since elites clearly disliked the practice, as seen by the statutes, and stood to benefit from its end as it undermined their power and authority, a likely explanation for the shift is that it was the result of demonization and propaganda by the elite of society. Population pressures cannot explain a cultural shift such as this, since logically this would have increased the number of people who entered Native societies in order to escape those pressures.

PS: Saying that this is "blame-shifting" is actually treating the public as though it were a monolithic bloc which decided to be racist all on its own. Just admit that you're an elitist, and you'll feel a lot healthier. Eff Wye Eye.

[NoXion]

Cops are doing their jobs, if one or some step out of line sue em. Don't make it a war between protestors and cops, keep to the message about the 99% (which blue collar cops are definitely part of) and the 1%ers.

Even if we take the social role of the police at face value - that their job is to enforce the law - then it follows that since it's the 1% of society that effectively dictates what the law is, using the power granted to them by their (ill-gotten) enormous share of our collective wealth, then the cops as a social group are not "one of us" but rather are the hired enforcers of one of the most powerful gangs on the planet, whose goals do not coincide with those of the 99%.

How many more bright young heads will have a baton broken over them before that sinks in?

[Lord Zentei]

I'm talking about the not infrequent departure of people from colonial society into Native society, which happened regularly during the 18th century, and did not happen during the 19th century, and so there was clearly a transition between these states which cannot be explained by population pressures alone, you fucking idiot. Because this departure was sufficiently acceptable that people did it regularly enough for statutes banning it to be passed in the 18th century, but largely unthinkable past the early 19th century, as only a small minority of people actually performed it voluntarily, and that requires some explanation. Since elites clearly disliked the practice, as seen by the statutes, and stood to benefit from its end as it undermined their power and authority, a likely explanation for the shift is that it was the result of demonization and propaganda by the elite of society. Population pressures cannot explain a cultural shift such as this, since logically this would have increased the number of people who entered Native societies in order to escape those pressures.

Cannot be explained by population pressures alone? Because the people moving into the Native areas during the 19th century are of course not the ones who were already in close proximity to the Natives during the 18th century. As the development of the white economy accelerated and the demand for more resources grew, you got more and new population groups moving into an area that was in a state of social equilibrium. And you want some kind of shadowy ulterior motive to keep the common man down? WTF are you smoking?

PS: Saying that this is "blame-shifting" is actually treating the public as though it were a monolithic bloc which decided to be racist all on its own.

So let's see... I pointed out that "The People" are not a monolithic bloc (and thus have differing views and attitudes) thus leading to the conclusion that the assumption that public racism is a deliberate control mechanism by the rich is an example of blame shifting. Since racists should be blamed for their racism. And from that you claim that I am assuming that people are a monolithic bloc and that I said that "the public" decided to be racist all on its own? Are you attempting not to make any sense at all? Hint: I was blaming you for blame shifting, not "the public" overall.

Just admit that you're an elitist, and you'll feel a lot healthier. Eff Wye Eye.

LMAO, go fuck yourself.

[Keevan_Colton]

Keevan is right. It doesn't just 'wash out' with water. You need an antacid like tums or alka selzer to treat it, and I hear they're coming up with newer formulas for the pepper spray to resist even that.

No, actually Keevan is not right; he's shooting his mouth off and making dumbass comments about the "chemistry" to make it sounds like he actually has a clue what he's talking about.

The stuff doesn't need to be water-soluble, chemically speaking. The water washes it away through mechanical action. It's going to burn for 45 minutes or so, tops, and that depending on the person who is hit, and the conditions under which it occurs. The active ingrediant is cayanne (sp?) pepper extract and the individual little particles are "spikey"; the water doesn't dissovle them, it pushes them away mechanically.

I know this because getting hit with it is part of the training to carry it, and I've been hit with it as part of that process. It is not "designed to be chemical torture in a can" or whatever other melodramatic bullshit you can come up with. It is designed to incapacitate temporarily. You do not need antacids for proper decontamination, although things like baby shampoo do help. Water will do the job by itself.

As for what you've heard about designs for decontamination-resistant types, I'd be really interested to know where you "hear" that. Such a thing would serve no purpose whatsoever.

Furthermore, whether it's a "chemical weapon" or not is irrelevant; the mere fact that it's technically a chemical weapon does not somehow put it wither morally or legally in the same category as lethal chemical weapons, regardless of the fact that under certain circumstances with certain people it might possibly be fatal.

If you want to argue the proper use of it in any given situation, knock yourself out, but quit pretending like being pepper sprayed is some horrendous fate.

ITT - SPVD once again shows that he's a fuckwit.

It does matter whether it is water soluble. Mechanical action alone has an incredibly hard time shifting it compared to chemicals it's soluble in. The stuff is effectively "sticky" in that respect, much like trying to wash off grease with water alone. Want a simple proof that can be conducted in your own home?

Get the strongest chilli peppers you can lay your hands on, the chemical that makes chilli hot is the active ingredient in pepper spray. I suggest a habanero pepper for the best comparison even though it's chemically about 1/50th the heat of pepper spray. Now, try eating it raw. See how long it takes with just water to stop your mouth from burning through mechanical action. Once you're done with that, try it again with a chemical it is soluble in. For one that isnt toxic, but still way more effective than water a good choice is milk. Now you appreciate the difference...

I find it rather frightening that someone as fucking retarded about the chemical weapons they're using is actually given any power and authority SPVD. Any chance you might throw yourself off something tall for the benefit of the gene pool?

On a more serious note, what retard is it that trains the folk using pepper spray over there and tells you water is the go-to solution for it? Fucking shampoo would be a better option by far.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

they're irritating individuals, just like certain protestors who turn up with a couple of bricks and a bad temper.

It's our job to clamp down on them before they get a chance to chuck stuff, and it's the police's job to clamp down on thugs that skipped the training.
Like the chief who ordered the 2nd amendment be read at each police station every day during the protests and ignored the mayor trying to stir things up. I forget the location becuase we haven't been getting storys of people getting their faces broken, on either side. which is better then the shit storm brewing in Oakland right now.

First Amendment, actually. Let's not have this go into Second Amendment territory. I've seen that show before, and it was horrific. Never again!

Just a nit pick, the civil war really didn't have much to do with the 2nd Amendment. The argument of secession came from the idea that states rights were supreme over the authority of the federal government.

[Mr. Coffee]

ITT: We learn that Capsaicin isn't water soluble.

Seriously, all water is going to do is spread the "Oh, fuck! BURNING!" around. There's a pretty good reason why fliers telling you to use a solution of Malox are floating about. Apparently the dumb hippies are more savvy about chemistry then the flatfoots dousing people in pepper spray are. Who knew...