Potential Work/Ethics Dilemna (Pagan vs. Christian)

[Broomstick]

I recently started a new job. It seems on the surface a really great match for me, but of course there are problems. I'll try to be succinct on this.

The good news is that I get on well with everyone, the boss likes me, I enjoy the work, and I seem to have a knack for it.

The potential problem is Christianity. They say they're a "Christian company espousing Christian values". Now, that's not necessarily a problem as there is considerable overlap between my values and Christian values, and where there isn't I can pretty much keep my trap shut as those areas aren't really relevant to shoe repair.

No, as usual, the problem isn't so much Jesus as his followers.

Now, the boss lady is recently born-again. Given she's also a lesbian in a 25+ year relationship I suspect she's not slammed to the extreme right. I was up front with her that I, personally, am not a Christian. I related the half-Jewish half-Catholic upbringing without actually discussing my personal belief system as that seems to "explain" how such a nice person as myself isn't a follower of Jesus and why I don't go to church and didn't go to church as a child. She seems OK with hiring the heathen (at least under some definitions of "heathen"). I spoke of how I think actions speak MUCH louder than words, and too frequent encounters with people who claim to be Christians but engage in very unChristian acts. We made appropriate references to Matthew 7:15-16.

A couple days ago one of her church friends shows up at the shop to get some shoe stuff done (perfectly OK, of course) but then won't go away as she targets me for preaching (what, do I have INIFIDEL on my forehead or something?). Actually, what started the whole thing was that she noticed the skin on my right arm is broken out and rashy. This is something that happens to me periodically, especially in the fall allergy season. So gloms onto me (not literally - for some reason no one ever seems to want to clutch my oozing limb, thank Og) and starts asking if I'm saved, if I drink milk, eat dairy, etc....

You know, this really fucking pisses me off. Just on general principle. Somehow it never occurs to those nosey busy-bodies that just maybe in my nearly half century of life I might have consulted someone about this problem, ya know? Because being treated like a leper is so much fucking fun. This ancient biddy just will not take a hint (and being the person running the store at that point, and knowing she's a friend of the boss, there are distinct limits on my hinting. What I want to do is whack her upside the head with a clue-by-four but alas, that would not be prudent).

While this is going on the boss arrives and the two ladies engage in conversation regarding their god of choice (yes, yes, I know they don't see it that way - that's my perspective) which is fine. I take the opportunity to wait on other customers, which is what I'm there for. This is fine, until the Old Biddy starts trying to draw me into the conversation again. Now, while sometimes I relish a debate at work is not a place I usually want to indulge. When another customer came in I said "excuse me, I think I need to go do some rendering unto Caeser" which absolutely delights the boss (it's a direct reference to Matthew 22:21) who draws Old Biddy aside with a "yes, she does know her Bible pretty well" and I can get on with doing my job.

So, I go back to work, excused from the conversation. Then they start discussing a "known witch" and how they can't associate with such people. Well, I am listening but very much not commenting.

The good things about this is that I'm getting the news on the boss/company in advance - I'm not finding out the hard way, they're entirely up front about all this. Very well. I'm pretty sure it's not a good idea to announce I'm Pagan around the workplace. I'm a rather secular Pagan at this point (and really, probably more likely to turn atheist than Christian at this point) and while I'm not a practicing witch I certainly am a "witch" under some definitions of that term. I am in the broom closet at work. My faith has no problem with lying by omission for my own protection. Hell, there isn't an issue with blatant lying for my own protection.

To be honest, though, this saddens me. I would much rather feel that a slip of the tongue won't harm me. If it was a bad work situation I'd use this as an excuse to go elsewhere, but other than the religious issue it's a damn good fit for me. I suppose, then, it's a question of whether or not this is going to continue as a tolerable situation. I guess at some point I'll need an exit plan, but given past experience I should be able to manage this for 4-5 years. I need employment right now, and keeping silent about my religion is one of the least unpleasant compromises I've had to make in order to get/keep a job in my life. After all, up until the mid 1980's my faith was largely a secret society sort of thing you didn't discuss publically anyway, and I'm definitely one of the crowd who thinks we may have have been a little hasty about emerging from the broom closet. Sure, public acceptance is fine but rubbing other peoples' faces in one's faith is what the monotheists do, not what we do.

OK, OK, get to the point, right? How about these points:

[*] encouragement - rah, rah, you can do it, etc.
[*] advice
[*] handy Bible references - see such references above. Particularly anything regarding tolerance towards non-Christians and/or Pagans just in case that ever comes up. Also, anything about shutting the hell up and letting actions speak instead of words.

[phred]

Rah rah, you can do it.
Don't bring your cauldron to work? If you keep your head down the excitement should wear off after awhile.
1 Thessalonians 4:11 comes to mind if they get too nosy. It basically says keep at your work and mind your own business.

[Civil War Man]

One way to handle it is to say that you consider religion to be a personal matter, and use Matthew 6:6 as reference.

When thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

[Broomstick]

I really like that 1 Thessalonians quote, as "working with my hands" is very much what I do all day.

[dworkin]

Gimme a 'B', gimme a 'R', Gimme a 'O'...well, you get the idea.

The extended pun of the famer and the seeds. Probably in the Gospel of Matthew. Implied in this gag is the idea that once sown seeds need time to grow. That is, once the idea is in there God needs some time to do his shit and one does not question the timetable of the Almighty. Point out too that surely a 'christian shop' is 'fertile ground' if anything is (quiet the rest of you).

As for other handy references just stay away from that loon Paul! What a wierdo.

[Count Chocula]

How about you keep your head down, bide your time, and find a job where folks don't wear their faith on their sleeves and judge you based on your adherence to their faith? In other words, if and when you can, GTFO. Working night shift at a gas station off the Interstate would be better than dealing with your current situation.

[Simon_Jester]

From her description of it, I'm not sure I agree- she says that apart from the obnoxious injections of self-conscious display-piety, it's a good working environment.

If she can put up with the One Bad Thing about the working environment, maybe it's worth staying around. Who knows? Maybe once she becomes a known quantity in the working environment, the owner's random acquaintances will stop poking her so much and just let her stick to the job. It's hard for me to believe that they have literally no ability to interact with people outside their religious group without preaching at those people.

[Broomstick]

From her description of it, I'm not sure I agree- she says that apart from the obnoxious injections of self-conscious display-piety, it's a good working environment.

^ This.

It's a physically safe place (well, as long as you don't get stupid about the machinery), less physically taxing, out of the elements, and I don't mind the work part. Even the religious part isn't that bad with the people I work with, it's the "friends" coming around that piss me off, and they're only a small part of the whole experience.

Did I also mention that Nosy Old Biddy is also a proselytizing vegan who has an idealized notion of animals, thinks dogs and cats should be left in the wild as god intended (just ignore what a few thousand years of controlled breeding has done to the species), and no one should keep pets. Why the hell this woman wears leather shoes, I don't know. Then again, from what I see logical thought isn't her strong suit.

[Thanas]

Either you like working there or you don't, either you need the money or you do not.

Which leads me to: suck it up (oh god, old ladies speak a bit funny at times, the horror) or leave.

Seriously, this "problem" sounds like a total non-issue compared to other stuff I have witnessed or heard about.

[Broomstick]

Yes, it's trivial if the boss' friends come around to pester me into conversion so often I can't get my work done and I get fired for not converting.

Not that that is where the situation is now... but the business is small enough that many of the protections accorded to workers are waived, I can be fired for not being Christian (or Christian enough) and the US has little in the way of safety net. If I quit or am fired for "cause" I can loose what few benefits I have. The prospect of being destitute, homeless, without healthcare for my disabled spouse, and unable to even get food for us does, you know, leave me just a little bit stressed at times.

Really, it's irrelevant if I like working there or not. Even if it was horrible I wouldn't have a choice, as there are no alternatives at this point. It's a bonus I like working there. What I want to do is maximize how long I can work there before it all goes to shit, which I believe it inevitably will. I need to be able to work there long enough to find a higher paying job and get a good reference from the boss

[madd0ct0r]

so you know what you've got to do, so get on with it.

Frankly, the biddy sounds like she'd get on your tits in any situation, and you get on fine with your boss, which is the important relationship.
She can also smell your fear.

I've had that feeling when working with some very dedicated people - some chose not to bother me about it, others told me I was only an atheist because i was angry with God.

It's probably more a case of just not freaking her out - claiming 'agnostic' and explaining your belief's in general terms is far far less scary then certain trigger words for Christians.

[Spoonist]

But isn't that why it feels so bad? That you pretty much don't have a choice. If it had been in a situation where you couldn't care less about employment would this aspect bother you so much? From all your rants over the years I don't think so.
So my advice would be - don't focus on it, don't brood on it, keep the boss happy as you are already doing. This is a minor nuissance compared to other stuff and not worth the energy you are wasting on it.
Don't learn/use too many bible quotes that's usually provocative for people like the old lady.
ie turn the other cheek you know...

[Broomstick]

But isn't that why it feels so bad? That you pretty much don't have a choice. If it had been in a situation where you couldn't care less about employment would this aspect bother you so much? From all your rants over the years I don't think so.

True.

Got word last night the estate auction on the mother-in-law's property went through, and we are supposed to get a rather large check in about a month. Assuming nothing fucks that up it would be about two year's worth of money which would give me enough of a cushion to stop worrying so much.

[Simon_Jester]

Broomstick, this may be incredibly bad advice, so take it with a grain silo or two of salt, but...

Your actual boss sounds like a reasonably sympathetic and well-intentioned person with a business to run, for all that she has screwy and mutually inconsistent beliefs about the world.

If her friends are hassling you so much it's actually cutting into your work hours, you might be able to convince her to talk to them, along the lines of "give her some space when she's working on the clock; she's just trying to do her job."

Then again, bringing this up might trigger the "things go to shit" scenario, so again, grain silo of salt.

[Rahvin]

I find it disturbing that a business can be "small" enough to waive the protection against religious discrimination in the workplace. Are you sure that's the case? I wasn't aware that workplace harassment laws (and attempts to badger you due to your religious beliefs or lack thereof such that you find your work environment to be hostile would certainly fall under such a qualification) had limitations based on the size of the business.

In any case, at my last job, my boss was a fundamentalist Creationist Christian who actually quoted the Bible at me during my performance review when he knew I was an atheist. Of course, that was the same boss who told his employees that he "doesn't like black people." I was somewhat..."uncomfortable" working for him.

I, too, needed the job badly, and had no real recourse. No savings to hold me over, no spouse with a second income to help support us.

I kept my head down, didn't make a big deal of anything, and just quietly kept looking for other employment. There was nothing available for some time, I wound up working there for a year and a half, but eventually an opportunity did come and I jumped ship immediately.

My advice would be to try to ignore it as much as possible, keep your head down, but keep looking for other employment. The pickings may be slim at the moment, but you found this job, and if you give it some time you can eventually find a suitable replacement. There's no rush. You aren't in any immanent danger of losing your job. It's uncomfortable, and it's wrong that your employer (or her friends) can subject you to this sort of nonsense, but it sounds to me like the discomfort is by far the lesser price to pay compared to the possible consequence of losing your job.

[Lagmonster]

It's a job you like, you're getting paid what you need, and - no offense - you don't sound any more harassed than any other service worker, all of whom at one point or another have to learn to paste a fake smile on their face and nod at what people to whom you've given pseudo-authority over you (bosses, customers) have to say.

Chances are nobody is going to actually hurt you, and if you act favourably towards her biases you know she's a pleasant woman who will likely treat you well. I wouldn't put that to test by getting snarky with Mathew 6:6 or something like that. You can't dodge Christians by playing the "quiet and devout" card - many of them are in it for the popularity points they get by going big and going public, so your only best bet is to swallow your pride and blend in until you punch out, then come vent here.

I also wouldn't worry about getting fired for not joining the club. She liked you when she hired you, you like working there. Your enjoyment will reflect in the quality of your work and your attitude with the customers, and that will help her business, which I bet will make her rationalize excuses for how you're a 'good' type of non-Christian, raising your value and causing her to dismiss or excuse the lack of rabid devotion. There is always a possibility things could get sour, but you shouldn't head to work each day as though Christianity were your own personal Sword of Damocles, because that will cause you to overthink and overanalyze your workplace as hostile. As you said, you like the job and jobs are rare. In your case, there really is plenty enough time to worry about the worst case after it's happened, so just treat it like a role of the job. Like when a waitress pretends to laugh at your jokes because she doesn't want to spoil her tip. You can be you once you're off the clock. If that hurts your pride, well, you might be in the right to stand up for yourself, but you'd still be just as broke.

[LaCroix]

Best advice - smile and nod.

What you want to do is to be the model-employee there. Be nice to customers, work better than all others, until she is convinced that you are god's gift to her. Be nice to her friends and avoid the religion topic as much as you can. (With your knowledge of religion, it won't be hard for you to skirt around the edges.) If it comes out eventually, it would mean that she has to cut off her right arm if she would fire you for this. If you are one of the guys actually earning her money, you will see that most people hold Ceasar closer to their heart than Jesus..

[Ariphaos]

Yes, it's trivial if the boss' friends come around to pester me into conversion so often I can't get my work done and I get fired for not converting.

Not that that is where the situation is now... but the business is small enough that many of the protections accorded to workers are waived, I can be fired for not being Christian (or Christian enough) and the US has little in the way of safety net. If I quit or am fired for "cause" I can loose what few benefits I have. The prospect of being destitute, homeless, without healthcare for my disabled spouse, and unable to even get food for us does, you know, leave me just a little bit stressed at times.

Really, it's irrelevant if I like working there or not. Even if it was horrible I wouldn't have a choice, as there are no alternatives at this point. It's a bonus I like working there. What I want to do is maximize how long I can work there before it all goes to shit, which I believe it inevitably will. I need to be able to work there long enough to find a higher paying job and get a good reference from the boss

So start sending out your resume, just in case. You have a job now, which is more than many people get.

In all honesty, you're probably worried too much about your job, per se. Most evangelicals are trying to convince themselves about their own faith, and a lot of them will see a non-Christian as rather exotic and try to relish in the opportunity. It's not like they have to worry about being 'unequally yoked'.

If you're a good person and a hard worker, that's a far more powerful argument to a Christian than any logical argument you'll see on these forums.

If the witch thing bothers you, you can read up Strong's number on it - it refers to 'mixer of potions'. Basically, the line refers to killing charlatans who would go from town to town and mix 'miracle cures', then leave with the town's money before they realized it didn't work.

An example more recognizable would be snake-oil salesmen or homeopaths.

[Eulogy]

Nthing the resume sendout. If things really do get so bad that you can't take it anymore, or the boss fires you for not joining her fanclub, then having a job offer already in place makes your financial situation more robust.

Of course, you hope that doesn't happen, that you don't need to shop around for another job. But having a plan B is prudent.

[Broomstick]

If the witch thing bothers you, you can read up Strong's number on it - it refers to 'mixer of potions'. Basically, the line refers to killing charlatans who would go from town to town and mix 'miracle cures', then leave with the town's money before they realized it didn't work.

An example more recognizable would be snake-oil salesmen or homeopaths.

Hmmm.... So when Nosey Old Biddy starts pushing the herbal remedies SHE is the witch? >snicker<

Of course, you hope that doesn't happen, that you don't need to shop around for another job. But having a plan B is prudent.

Plan B is the edge-lit sign company my spouse and I are setting up (in fact, we delivered our first sign to a local business today), it's just not bringing in steady money right now. Hence, having a regular paycheck is attractive.

[Simon_Jester]

My advice is don't quit your day job because of a perceived possible long-term problem. Try to sound out the working environment; if my suspicions are right you won't have to deal with endless hassling.

Some Christian fundies try to convert people the way dogs sniff crotches- it's an annoying, but not unfriendly, reflex reaction to the presence of a strange person. They settle down.

[Feil]

Keep your job.

As has been said, if the worst you have to deal with is offensive customers, the work is comfortable, and the hours are acceptable, you're in a pretty decent place. That doesn't mean you're wrong to be upset by it, or that you shouldn't go seeking venting and comfort after your shifts. When people verbally abuse you and you can't get out because of your job, it hurts, and no doubt about it.

As far as advice goes, you might get somewhere by keeping positive and garrulously pushing your own topics of conversation. If you're chatting about recipes, your children, favorite restaurants, recent movies, etc, you aren't playing marathon rounds of Convert-a-Heathen. And the more people get to know you, the more you'll be you, not that heathen who works at the shoe shop.

[PainRack]

Sounds like this isn't an easy situation for you Broomstick, sorta lots of conflicting feelings about how the job is enjoyable but yet, has this huge, hidden stress factor that's ready to jump out at you at any moment?

[Broomstick]

It's not that the stress is there now - it's more concern that it will come up in the future. I've had some bad situations in the past. That doesn't mean this one will go to shit, of course, but the concern is there.

[PainRack]

So what you're doing is worrying about the future?