The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

[Flagg]

Remember Keev, police are dainty flowers that must be protected at all costs. I mean we can't have someone go to their home and say bad things to one, can we? That's downright unAmerican!

[Thanas]

So, was he beaten with the batons before the take down because I'm not seeing any obvious strikes. There could be strikes taking place but I didn't notice any.

I am sure the guy's spleen lacerated all on his own, as did the baton hits he was treated for happen on his own. He just couldn't help running into the baton over and over again.

We do not know what caused this situation.

I will remind everyone that when you're placed under arrest you do not have the right to resist. If you resist and soft techniques do not work or whatever technique the officer is using to effect the arrest then the officer can elevate that level of force. These include physical strikes, baton's, OC spray, and Tasers are all acceptable escalations with the use of force. This is backed up by lots of court precedence, police experience, and combat experience.

I don't care what excuse the jackboots brave and determined police officer who need five guys to beat and rapture the spleen arrest a single person bring up. The mere fact that they threw him in a cell with a lacerated spleen and refused him medical attention makes your whiteknighting of the jackboots brave and determined police officers who were in great danger hilarious. I don't care what the excuse is, if you lacerate a guy's spleen and cause potentially life-threatening damage and then refuse him medical attention you are nothing but a jackboot.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

I don't care what excuse the jackboots brave and determined police officer who need five guys to beat and rapture the spleen arrest a single person bring up. The mere fact that they threw him in a cell with a lacerated spleen and refused him medical attention makes your whiteknighting of the jackboots brave and determined police officers who were in great danger hilarious. I don't care what the excuse is, if you lacerate a guy's spleen and cause potentially life-threatening damage and then refuse him medical attention you are nothing but a jackboot.

And attempting a plausibly deniable First Degree Murder to (jack)boot!

[Thanas]

News article.

Kayvan Sabehgi wasn’t looking for any trouble Wednesday night. He was just trying to get home after participating in the peaceful Oakland general strike. But when the 32-year-old veteran of both Iraq and Afghanistan ran into a police line downtown during– but away from– clashes between ‘Occupy Oakland’ protesters and police, things got very ugly.

“There was a group of police in front of me,” Sabehgi told the Guardian from his hospital bed. “They told me to move, but I was like: ‘Move to where?’ There was nowhere to move.”

“Then they lined up in front of me. I was talking to one of them, saying ‘Why are you doing this?’ when one moved forward and hit me in my arm and legs and back with his baton. Then three or four cops tackled me and arrested me.”

The veteran was thrown in a police van for three hours before being transported to jail. He says he was in “unbelievable pain.”

“My stomach was really hurting, and it got worse to the point where I couldn’t stand up,” he told the Guardian. “I was on my hands and knees and crawled over to the cell door to call for help.”

“I was vomiting and had diarrhea. I just lay there in pain for hours.”

According to ABC7, Sabehgi begged to see a doctor but was told to “stop doing heroin.” But Sabehgi is no drug addict. In fact, he owns an artisan brewery in nearby El Cerrito.

Sabehgi was bailed out the next afternoon. By then, the pain was so bad that he couldn’t leave his jail cell. Eventually– around 6PM the day after his arrest– an ambulance rushed him to Highland Hospital, the same facility where U.S. Marine and Iraq war veteran and ‘Occupy’ protester Scott Olsen was operated on after his skull was fractured by police a week earlier. Sabehgi underwent surgery Friday to repair his lacerated spleen. He is recovering in the hospital’s intensive care unit.

Person vomiting, in pain and diarrhea? He must be a druggie hippie. Us beating him having anything to do with it? Nah, he should man up. Doctors? Who needs them. Let him rot in pain for 18 hours. His screams are delicious to our ears.

Thugs.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I don't think we're quite to the point that you should find it acceptable that an organization is potentially and recklessly placing lives in danger. You specifically cite the officer who threw the grenade. What injuries did his action cause? Is the potential for what could happen due to an illegal and reckless action worth the benefit? I do not think so.

Honestly, you are being a sickening waste of genetic material. Apparently the risk presented by using chemical weapons on people trying to administer aid to a man suffering serious head trauma (and it turns out some degree of brain damage) is LESS than someones name being known.

Actually, I didn't say that. Go back and read the thread, Keevan. Read it carefully. Journalist my eye, bitch. I have no problem with the officers being named...none at all. Please. Take that statement and ram it directly up your ass so you'll be able to comprehend it. Anyone else that fails to comprehend this simple English also needs to ram it DIRECTLY up their ass.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH POLICE OFFICERS BEING NAMED. (Shove it right up their, bitches. AND FUCK OFF)

[Thanas]

My my, how vigorously the vet is resisting arrest. I tell you, he is completely fighting back against officers pinning his arms behind his back and presents a clear threat. Righto.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Given that you can only cite procedure and training manuals, whereas we've been talking about the chemistry and the fact that these techniques do not actually help the person suffering from the spray...yes you are doing it wrong.

Haha your arrogance is so crippling you can't even grasp what anyone is trying to tell you. Pathetic. Water is used mostly because it provides relief, all medical first responders carrying large amounts of it, and it is safe. I agree with you that OC is not water soluble. I agree with you that there are other much more effective means of deactivation. However, those means aren't realistic which is why military, and law enforcement use water and I'd wager probably done on a world wide scale.

Time is the only real solution.

The fact is that water doesnt do anything to deal with pepper spray, you need a medium in which it is soluble to carry away the contaminant. Which is why those same manuals generally mention the use of non-oily soaps and other similar chemicals to actually REMOVE the contaminant. The water doesnt do it. It can remove some of the other irritants in CS which is probably why it's ended up part of procedure but OC is NOT water soluble.

I know this, man.

Science > Procedure.

Agreed.

Frankly though, since you can find that someone throwing grenades at people is LESS reckless than knowing someones name...you are doing it wrong with regards to life never mind understanding chemical weapons.

Aren't you suppose to be a journalist major? This is just sad. You're a mod too right? Aren't you suppose to read the whole thread before commenting? Huh...

[Keevan_Colton]

You're objecting to his being named when the police are refusing to do so, and claiming that the information being out there would constitute a serious risk and be a reckless act. You bring this up in direct reference to an example where it is shown that with a name a full set of other information can be obtained, which suggests that you are objecting to the name being known. After all, it's just the name that's needed for a group like Anonymous to be able to post full information...

So, how exactly is that misrepresenting your objection given that you are responding directly to a piece talking about how WITH JUST NAMES all that other information can be obtained.

[Simon_Jester]

I repeat that I am not a fan of police brutality. I am against police acting like thugs. I am against them injuring or killing people; I am especially against them injuring or killing people because they have taken it into their heads to arrest someone for stupid reasons and that person turns out to be insufficiently meek and submissive, without any intent to attack policemen.

I think it would be much better if the police in flashpoint cities like Oakland would just stand the hell back from the protestors. Or if the local government would (like smart people) try to find some way to channelize the protest into places where it isn't directly blocking traffic or whatever their pretext for beating people up is.

And yet...

Remember Keev, police are dainty flowers that must be protected at all costs. I mean we can't have someone go to their home and say bad things to one, can we? That's downright unAmerican!

And remember, Flagg, police never have to worry about being singled out for violence, as well as just having to hear bad things, when they're off-duty. It's not like they deal with anyone who's likely to bear grudges. Or anyone who's likely to get violent. That's not true anywhere, and it's double-plus not true in America!

And, of course, Anonymous is nice and restrained and very, very smart and careful. So they won't release the personal information of any policemen not responsible for beatings and abuses. That would never happen. They don't go after people who don't deserve it, and they always think carefully about the fallout from their actions.

[sinks face into hands]

Jeez, people. Are you so busy with the righteous indignation and huffing and puffing that you can not see the problem with this kind of stuff? Does it suddenly become okay to apply mob 'justice,' with a sentence set by whoever has the biggest chip on their shoulder, to anyone who fucking Anonymous identifies as an Enemy Of The People?

If this is what the revolution is supposed to look like, with Anonymous in as the enforcement arm, I want out. It's not my revolution if the guardians of the public interest are Internet trolls. Even if they're Internet trolls who have a white-knight instinct in there somewhere and frequently harass people I don't like.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I am sure the guy's spleen lacerated all on his own, as did the baton hits he was treated for happen on his own. He just couldn't help running into the baton over and over again.

I'm sure his spleen was lacerated by the altercation. I think you missed the point...which isn't surprising considering how sarcastic and ridiculous your behavior has been these last couple posts. Like a fucking child. Are you actually interested in discussion or are you just going to continue making smart ass remarks?

I don't care what excuse the jackboots brave and determined police officer who need five guys to beat and rapture the spleen arrest a single person bring up. The mere fact that they threw him in a cell with a lacerated spleen and refused him medical attention makes your whiteknighting of the jackboots brave and determined police officers who were in great danger hilarious. I don't care what the excuse is, if you lacerate a guy's spleen and cause potentially life-threatening damage and then refuse him medical attention you are nothing but a jackboot.

What whiteknighting? Point it out. I never said those officers were justified. All I did was remind people that if you're placed under arrest and you resist then force can be used against you and that force can be escalated. Does that mean that these officers are justified? No. Not at all. However, just because a serious injuries was caused doesn't automatically mean that they weren't justified either. Fights can be nasty business sometimes. The stomach area, chest, and head are NOT baton target areas. However, cops are human and sometimes miss. Did that happen here? I don't know.

[Kamakazie Sith]

You're objecting to his being named when the police are refusing to do so, and claiming that the information being out there would constitute a serious risk and be a reckless act.

Wow. Not even two posts in and you already forgot. No, I'm not objecting to the naming. Police officers names are public which is why we wear name tags. The information that Anonymous tends to post is not public. (Address, SSN, etc)

You bring this up in direct reference to an example where it is shown that with a name a full set of other information can be obtained, which suggests that you are objecting to the name being known. After all, it's just the name that's needed for a group like Anonymous to be able to post full information...

You didn't read the whole thread...again. Read the thread.

So, how exactly is that misrepresenting your objection given that you are responding directly to a piece talking about how WITH JUST NAMES all that other information can be obtained.

Read the whole thread, Keevan. We can still be friends.

[Keevan_Colton]

That leaves the problem that the establishment as it stands has no motivation or inclination to release the information.

Answer me this, how exactly does this differ from such wonderful things as requiring sex offenders to be registered in terms of potential for vigilante justice?

How does the threat of retribution really differ from that faced by judges and juries? Should we opt for anonymity for judges too?

Perhaps there is some kind of massive benefit to giving power to people and not making then responsible for their actions that I'm missing here, could you illuminate me on this?

[Kamakazie Sith]

My my, how vigorously the vet is resisting arrest. I tell you, he is completely fighting back against officers pinning his arms behind his back and presents a clear threat. Righto.

Those pictures are AFTER the altercation. He's handcuffed, Thanas. Watch the video. It opens up with him being picked up off the ground. We then see the actual altercation and his hands are free. I submit that's evidence that the police were simply trying to handcuff him and not kick the shit out of him. Once his resistance ended so did their force.

[Kryten]

What whiteknighting? Point it out. I never said those officers were justified. All I did was remind people that if you're placed under arrest and you resist then force can be used against you and that force can be escalated. Does that mean that these officers are justified? No. Not at all. However, just because a serious injuries was caused doesn't automatically mean that they weren't justified either. Fights can be nasty business sometimes. The stomach area, chest, and head are NOT baton target areas. However, cops are human and sometimes miss. Did that happen here? I don't know.

He wasn't resisting, he was RESTRAINED.
That is what people are angry about. It's not about how nasty pepper spray is, it's the fact that it's completely unjustified.
It's not that SVPD is wrong about the chemistry, it's that his response to pepper spray bening use on unresisting protesters is 'It'll wash out'
It's that your response to people being beaten severely is 'maybe they missed'.
It's that you're only applying innocent until proven guilty to police officers-protesters must have been resisting arrest.
You haven't even tried to show that any of this is justified-only babbled on about regulations that are clearly not being followed anyway.

[Kamakazie Sith]

That leaves the problem that the establishment as it stands has no motivation or inclination to release the information.

Answer me this, how exactly does this differ from such wonderful things as requiring sex offenders to be registered in terms of potential for vigilante justice?

Difference - A trial and a conviction. The sexual offender registry is the way it is because of children. I'm divided on the issue though. A convicted police officer released from jail isn't predatory in the same way some sexual offenders are but hey if you can prove that a particular officer is then go for it. He/she is a disgrace to the badge. What's good for the goose is good the gander.

How does the threat of retribution really differ from that faced by judges and juries? Should we opt for anonymity for judges too?

Are we back to the no names bullshit, again? Is it really that difficult to understand? I'm honestly at a loss here.

Perhaps there is some kind of massive benefit to giving power to people and not making then responsible for their actions that I'm missing here, could you illuminate me on this?

You must be addressing someone elses argument. I have not made such a claim.

[Kamakazie Sith]

He wasn't resisting, he was RESTRAINED.
That is what people are angry about. It's not about how nasty pepper spray is, it's the fact that it's completely unjustified.

I think you're talking about the video with the protesters linking arms together. Earlier in this thread I stated my position that if all they're doing is causing an inconvience to people then it should be allowed to continue which the protesters in the video appeared to be not even causing an inconvience. They were likely in violation of park curfew or something like that.

Unfortunately, the city and the police department don't agree and are enforcing the standing ordinances. You say he was restrained? If you're talking about the protesters linking their arms together again I remind you that police are allowed to use reasonable force to effect an arrest. Did you see the police go right in and OC them? No. That did not happen. They were talked to and probably informed of the consequences. The individuals that were hit with OC spray were linked arm to arm. The police attempted to physically pull them apart but were unable. Thus, the force was escalated and compliance obtained.

It's not that SVPD is wrong about the chemistry, it's that his response to pepper spray bening use on unresisting protesters is 'It'll wash out' It's that your response to people being beaten severely is 'maybe they missed'.

Since baton target areas are the legs and arms. That is a possibility. Even the victim says he was struck in the legs, arms, and back. Once an officer in a local PD tasered another officer in the face. Was that on purpose, Kryten? Using the absolute logic in this thread I'd be force to conclude that it was...though the officer that deployed the taser was the other ones training officer...maybe he hated him.

It's that you're only applying innocent until proven guilty to police officers-protesters must have been resisting arrest.
You haven't even tried to show that any of this is justified-only babbled on about regulations that are clearly not being followed anyway.

They were resisting arrest. When you're arrested linking your arms to another person is resisting. Is it active resistance - trying to attack the officer? No. Is it still difficult to defeat just with physical force. Yes.

[Kryten]

violation of park curfew

police are allowed to use reasonable force to effect an arrest.

Thus, the force was escalated and compliance obtained.

They were resisting arrest. When you're arrested linking your arms to another person is resisting. Is it active resistance - trying to attack the officer? No. Is it still difficult to defeat just with physical force. Yes.

This is what I mean. I don't give a FUCK what they are allowed to do, I don't give a FUCK what city ordinances say, and I certainly don't give a fuck if linking arms together is, through legalese bullshit, resisting arrest.

This isn't justified

There's no reason for there to be arrests to resist.
There's no reason for there to be force to escalate.
And you haven't tried to provide one.

EDIT: Spelling

[Keevan_Colton]

You must be addressing someone elses argument. I have not made such a claim.

That post was directed more towards Simon's points.

[Kamakazie Sith]

This is what I mean. I don't give a FUCK what they are allowed to do, I don't give a FUCK what city ordinances say, and I certainly don't give a fuck if linking arms together is, through legalese bullshit, resisting arrest.

Uh, it isn't legalese bullshit. You can't arrest someone if they're linked to another person. It is simple fact.

This isn't justified

Under the law, it is. Does that make it right, no. That's up the civilian government. The OWS protesters can still protest. They just need to follow the law in regards to the function.

There's no reason for there to be arrests to resist.

I agree. Simply being arrested while protesting sends a powerful message.

There's no reason for there to be force to escalate.
And you haven't tried to provide one.

I did give reason. You don't agree with it but that doesn't suddenly mean what I said isn't a reason.

[SVPD]

It's not that SVPD is wrong about the chemistry, it's that his response to pepper spray being use on unresisting protesters is 'It'll wash out'

Aside from the fact that I am not wrong about the chemistry (Keevan's attempts to pretend he knows anything at all about the chemistry because he took some minimal chemistry in the process of getting a journalism degree aside), I specifically said that I wasn't commenting on whether the use of OC in any given incident was correct or not.

If it was used on someone not resisting in any way, its use is improper regardless of what effect water, milk, or any other substance has in terms of reducing the effects.

If it was used on someone who was resisting, it was proper regardless of what effect water, milk, or any other substance has in terms of reducing the effects.

My objection is to misrepresenting the effects by pretending its far worse than it actually is by calling it "torture in a can!" and "ZOMG chemical weapons!". Calling pepper spray a chemical weapon, while technically correct, is lot like pretending a housecat is the same as a tiger because they're both felines.

[SVPD]

Given that you can only cite procedure and training manuals, whereas we've been talking about the chemistry and the fact that these techniques do not actually help the person suffering from the spray...yes you are doing it wrong. The fact is that water doesnt do anything to deal with pepper spray, you need a medium in which it is soluble to carry away the contaminant. Which is why those same manuals generally mention the use of non-oily soaps and other similar chemicals to actually REMOVE the contaminant. The water doesnt do it. It can remove some of the other irritants in CS which is probably why it's ended up part of procedure but OC is NOT water soluble.

Science > Procedure.

Frankly though, since you can find that someone throwing grenades at people is LESS reckless than knowing someones name...you are doing it wrong with regards to life never mind understanding chemical weapons.

Given the fact that you are not actually referring to any real chemistry or science at all, but rather simply pretending that you know something that the designers and manufactuers who come up with the procedures don't (I'm sure this stuff was invented by people who don't have any trining at all in science or chemistray like.. you know, a journalism major) and calling it "science".

First of all, your continued use of the term "chemical weapons" is a predjudicial language fallacy in an attempt to conjure up connotations of battlefield chemical weapons, while hiding behind the technical correctness of that term. In point of fact, the use of chemical weapons is not objected to because they're chemicals; it's objected to because of the manner in which they kill in events like WWI and Saddam's use on various occasions. Pepper spray is a joke compared to those weapons.

Second, water is available in large quantities in cities, is inexpensive, and requires no preparation or special storage unlike certain other possible decontaminants. That's why it's used; it does do an adequate job of removing carrier agents like gel or foam because they just sit on the skin. That leaves only the agent that is directly in contact with the skin, allowing time and air to begin doing their job of reducing the effects. Other substances like Shampoo can do a faster, better job of getting rid of excess contaminant, but those are not always readily available, and just because they work better does not mean water does not do anything. Tell you what, go get sprayed with the stuff and get washed with water, then get sprayed and get no decontamination whatsoever, and then tell me which one you like better, since you're so into half-ass "tests" like "Eat a pepper at home! I'm using real science!"

Third, nothing other than time really relieves the burning sensation; it's supposed to work that way. The point of washing off the excess is so that you don't keep recontaminating yourself, spreading it to other parts of the body, or spreading it to other people. The fact is that, despite your claims to actually know more about the chemistry of it than the engineers and manufacturers who design the stuff (and yes, they do honestly represent their product for the most part since, they don't want to, you know, go out of business when they get sued into oblivion if it doesn't work as advetised) you didn't fucking know that shampoo and other additional substances work no better than water.

Fourth, you are a dishonest bully who tries to use board rules and intimidation to win arguments, and who pretends to scientific knowledge you don't posses. Don't give me this shit about how you "ultimately went with a journalism degree, but wanted to know something about science"; I know perfectly well that universities require some sort of physical science as part of almost any degre. Furthermore, the concept of solubility is something you should have learned in high school chemistry, if you were even paying attention. Don't pretend like you have any special knowledge of the chemistry, the fact is that you simply took a quick look on the internet, found out that there's an urban legend that things like milk help the burning go away faster, called it "chemistry" and "science", came up with your bullshit "eat a pepper at home" test, and then tried to pretend you actually have a knowledge of chemistry beyond the laymen because your own bigotry and stereotyping makes you think some cop couldn't possibly have "taken chemistry at University". As a matter of fact asshole, I took 2 semesters of it, and while it was introiductorry, it was the introductory course engineering students and chemistry students took, not the "chemistry for jocks" that your worthless ass most likely took.

Just shut the fuck up. You are not a scientist, you are an internet troll pretending to knowledge you don't posses.

[Formless]

Given the fact that you are not actually referring to any real chemistry or science at all,

Capsaicin (play /kæpˈseɪ.ɨsɪn/; 8-methyl-N-vanillyl-6-nonenamide, (CH3)2CHCH=CH(CH2)4CONHCH2C6H3-4-(OH)-3-(OCH3) ) is the active component of chili peppers, which are plants belonging to the genus Capsicum. It is an irritant for mammals, including humans, and produces a sensation of burning in any tissue with which it comes into contact. Capsaicin and several related compounds are called capsaicinoids and are produced as a secondary metabolite by chili peppers, probably as deterrents against certain herbivores and fungi.[1] Pure capsaicin is a hydrophobic, colorless, odorless, crystalline to waxy compound.

Water will not remove capsacin, you retarded, dishonest sack of crap. Not through dilution, not through "mechanical means". Attacking Keevan's education will not change the facts of chemistry you refuse to even address. I do not care what your manuals state (and you refuse to cite them anyway). IF they insist the same things you do, they are effectively tools of disinformation. End of line.

[Zaune]

I would have put it rather more calmly, but Formless does raise a good point. If your training manuals are instructing you to use plain water in order to mitigate the aftereffects of getting nailed with pepper-spray after a suspect is no longer resisting, they are dead wrong. Water will eventually work if you keep enough continuous pressure up, but in the short term it will only make things worse by spreading the stuff all over your face.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

I would have put it rather more calmly, but Formless does raise a good point. If your training manuals are instructing you to use plain water in order to mitigate the aftereffects of getting nailed with pepper-spray after a suspect is no longer resisting, they are dead wrong. Water will eventually work if you keep enough continuous pressure up, but in the short term it will only make things worse by spreading the stuff all over your face.

The longer this trainwreck of a thread gets, the more I'm convinced enhancement of pain is the whole point of the 'lol plain water' nonsense advice.

[Formless]

Screw calm, how many times does it have to be explained to him before he gets it? That's right, never, because he flat out stated he will not concede anything. Mr. Coffee even made the same point about it spreading the shit all over your face (remember, this stuff does not just burn the eyes, it burns the mouth and nose as well, and would burn the skin too if it didn't create such an effective barrier of dead cells), and he ignored my point about how in a real encounter you don't get the opportunity to clean it off. Heck, I would expand that and say that you really don't get an opportunity to clean it off when your hands are cuffed.

Does any of this matter to him? Nope, because he said he will not concede anything he must keep on making these inane arguments (even when at other points he admits it will not stop the burning).