Penn State would rather football than justice for child rape

[Kanastrous]

'Official,' maybe not. 'Professional' seems wide enough to be admissible against them.

[Broomstick]

Popular <> great. Do you -really- believe that anyone save die-hard sports fans or sports historians will give a tin shit what his record is, in fifty or one hundred years? Can you point to one -single- way in which mankind will be better off, because he was good at coaching football? Really? It's a fucking game. The fact that a number of fans choose to assign importance to it doesn't mean it has the slightest practical importance outside the world of athletics. Which against the backdrop of human history is an absolutely fucking insignificant little world, by any practical or rational judgment.

Teachers and coaches can, and often do, have positive impact on the students they come into contact with. They can encourage young people to stay in school, study, develop a work ethic, teamwork, and so forth which are undeniably valuable life skills. Paterno was known not only for being a winning coach but also those other positive effects on young people. That is one reason a lot of people who know him are shocked and hurt by this - a man who had significant impact on their lives has been revealed to have been involved in something horrific.

Granted, it's not the same as curing cancer or winning a Noble prize, but to say that teachers and coaches have no importance is naive and short-sighted.

[Kanastrous]

I surely don't want anyone to think that I place teachers and sports coaches in the same category of utility or importance. Please don't misrepresent my position by suggesting that I ever did.

[Havok]

'Official,' maybe not. 'Professional' seems wide enough to be admissible against them.

The authorities in PA seem to disagree.

[Kanastrous]

Teachers and coaches can, and often do, have positive impact on the students they come into contact with.

And sometimes their impact is negative. I can think of recently-reported events in which that was certainly the case for -some- of the young people concerned. In which cases the impact was -very- negative.

They can encourage young people to stay in school, study, develop a work ethic, teamwork, and so forth which are undeniably valuable life skills.

As can anyone else. And somehow a very great many of us - most likely the overwhelming majority - who absorbed such lessons did not absorb them from college sports coaches, going by the fact that only a small minority of the population plays college sports at the varsity level.

Paterno was known not only for being a winning coach but also those other positive effects on young people. That is one reason a lot of people who know him are shocked and hurt by this - a man who had significant impact on their lives has been revealed to have been involved in something horrific.

One risk of worshipping the golden idol is being disappointed when you notice its feet of clay.

[Bakustra]

What exactly is your point? Down with sports, because you always got picked last or something? I don't see what any of that blather has to do with the Penn State case or Joe Paterno apart from "hurf durf maybe if they hadn't respected the man they wouldn't be disappointed in him!!".

[Kanastrous]

*chuckle* yeah, anyone who objects to the sports-obsession in what are supposed to be institutions of learning, and thinks it's problematic that the lionization of athletes and coaches creates an insulating bubble in which they can get away with crap forbidden to others in the system, or was following Havok's line of conversation which you would have noted had you bothered to pay attention, -must- be emotionally wounded for having been picked last for dodgeball.

Idiot.

[Havok]

Agreed. You seem to just have an issue with hero worship, or over admiration.

However, when you spend your entire adult life dedicated to an institution and what it stands for and do so successfully, getting admiration and respect for it is not a crime like you seem to want it to be in this case.

You act as if everything Paterno did in the last 60 plus years at Penn State was to advance Sandusky's hidden agenda and now his house of cards has come crashing down and we all should have known better because we are worshiping false idols.

Get off your high fucking horse and try to remember who the criminal is here. It's not Paterno.

[Kanastrous]

Aren't all idols false, by definition? How does that reflect upon the worshippers?

Whether or not Paterno can be called a criminal is a matter for the courts, and without a crystal ball neither you nor I know how that will eventually play out.

But there does not appear to be much doubt right now that he effectively covered for a child-rapist. Put whatever spin on that you need to, to make you happy with the guy and keep him on the pedestal. I don't derive anything from doing that, but if you do that's your business.

[Havok]

*chuckle* yeah, anyone who objects to the sports-obsession in what are supposed to be institutions of learning, and thinks it's problematic that the lionization of athletes and coaches creates an insulating bubble in which they can get away with crap forbidden to others in the system, or was following Havok's line of conversation which you would have noted had you bothered to pay attention, -must- be emotionally wounded for having been picked last for dodgeball.

Idiot.

My point was that it is very possible Paterno had no knowledge of Sandusky's comings and going on the campus. As I pointed out, it wasn't the football team rioting last night. It isn't just sports obsession. And if YOU bothered to read, you would know that Paterno has raised and given MILLIONS to the university for the sole purpose of education.

[Havok]

Aren't all idols false, by definition? How does that reflect upon the worshippers?

All the way up to "God". Worshiping and having love and respect are two different things.

[Bakustra]

*chuckle* yeah, anyone who objects to the sports-obsession in what are supposed to be institutions of learning, and thinks it's problematic that the lionization of athletes and coaches creates an insulating bubble in which they can get away with crap forbidden to others in the system, or was following Havok's line of conversation which you would have noted had you bothered to pay attention, -must- be emotionally wounded for having been picked last for dodgeball.

Idiot.

How do you know that that is the case here? How do you know that the reason Jerry Sandusky was able to rape and molest a number of children was solely because of "an insulating bubble" around sports coaches and players? You should probably take into account cultural factors leading to people being reluctant to report such incidents and the nature of any institution, not just football, to try and protect its own members. Because if we say, "Well the Catholic Church has an insulating bubble, and football coaches have an insulating bubble, and CEOs of pizza companies have an insulating bubble," eventually we get to the point where we realize that it's pretty much universal across our culture when it comes to reporting rape and molestation. Not to mention that Havok was talking about why people were upset about this, not that Paterno is innocent because he was a great coach.

[Kanastrous]

How do you know that that is the case here?

I've seen it at Syracuse University, at Georgetown University, at USC, and at Penn State (briefly) first-hand. All schools with major sports programs, teams that bring in a lot of $$$ and publicity for the schools, and large segments of thir student bodies who can be relied upon to riot when an important game goes against them (well, and sometimes when it goes their way). I've known paying students to be obliged to stand out in a snowstorm for an hour or more, waiting for a university bus to take them to university housing because it was just -so- much more important to assign most of the available buses to carting sports fans to and from games. I've watched a judge waive proceedings against a valuable college athlete who - unprovoked - beat the crap out of another student, as attested by multiple eyewitnesses, because "well, it's football season and it would be a terrible shame to let something like this damage a promising athletic career." I can't state that I -know- it's the case (and in fact I haven't made that statement) but I sure suspect it strongly enough that I'm willing to offer the argument.

If your observations and experience have led you to conclude that privilege and immunity are not problems where college sports programs are concerned, I'll respect those conclusions and leave it at that.

[Havok]

Let me also point out a time line of events:

Paterno announces he will finish out the year and retire.

Students, when questioned about this decision, understand that Paterno needs to have culpability in the matter, but are glad they get to see him on the field for their university one last time and feel that it is the respect due the man for his 64 years of dedication and commitment to Penn State. Zero rioting and no overt outpouring of emotion or support for Paterno.

Trustees announce Paterno's immediate dismissal.

Students riot, (if you can really call it that as there have been more disruptive gatherings for the Bulls wining the NBA Championship.) due to the now perceived disrespect Paterno is getting from the school he almost singlehandedly put on the map.

The students are not upset about Paterno and his having to step down because of the situation, they are upset because they feel that even under the circumstances, he deserves better treatment due to what he has meant to and given to Penn State.

[Kanastrous]

The students are not upset about Paterno and his having to step down because of the situation, they are upset because they feel that even under the circumstances, he deserves better treatment due to what he has meant to and given to Penn State.

Then they're a fuckton more generous toward a protector of a serial child-molester, than I am willing to be. Letting him go out on a high note, that 'one last game' would be a reward. And fuck that. In some moral systems winning several decades' worth of football games offsets that, I guess. Maybe it's the 'moral bank account' concept; be a good enough coach (not usually considered a yardstick of actual morality, but what the heck) for long enough and your balance grows to the point where failing to act responsibly to protect children from rape doesn't drain your account.

Just not by my own particular method of accounting. YMMV.

[Havok]

Oh so you know that Paterno knew exactly what Sandusky was doing and then said, "Come on back, I'll keep it under wraps for you buddy." You have the proof of that correct? You can back up your claims with that proof? I mean, you should contact the authorities in PA then, because, y'know, they may want to have that information.

And again, with the "oh some guy that won some football games"... for someone that claims to roam major universities, routinely seeing student riots over football games and assaults that get dismissed, you sure have no idea what Joe Paterno meant to PENN STATE, not just the football program.

[Todeswind]

I can understand why Paterno decided the way he did. It was wrong and he should not have done it but I can understand where he came from. Football players especially college players are conditioned from a young age to believe you listen to your coach first above all else. And division I football coaches are elevated to the status of minor deities. Remember this is the man who had control essentially over Joe's line, scholarships, and for all intents and purposes Paterno's future. The decision to go against him is not an easy one.

Did you even read the article? Paterno is the freaking head coach.

I read it last night when my brain had pretty much been turned to mush by grading papers. Somehow I thought that the situation was "Joe reported it to the head coach" rather than "Joe ignored x/y/z" allegations.

[Kanastrous]

Oh so you know that Paterno knew exactly what Sandusky was doing and then said, "Come on back, I'll keep it under wraps for you buddy."

No, I'm going by reports that Paterno was informed by an eyewitness of Sandusky's behavior, and effectively protected him by handing it off to university officials (never bothering to see if they had followed through concerning a felony report lodged against someone associated with -his- department) - possibly in violation of the law, certainly in violation of anything answering to adult responsibility - rather than fulfill a moral obligation to protect the victim by going to law enforcement.

Which is quite bad enough, without need for your silliness above.

I grasp that there is a great deal of (obviously in my own opinion unwarranted and unhealthy, no one else need agree) over-inflated esteem for people who are very, very adept at planning and playing games. I just don't respect it.

[Dark Hellion]

Let me also point out a time line of events:

Paterno announces he will finish out the year and retire.

Students, when questioned about this decision, understand that Paterno needs to have culpability in the matter, but are glad they get to see him on the field for their university one last time and feel that it is the respect due the man for his 64 years of dedication and commitment to Penn State. Zero rioting and no overt outpouring of emotion or support for Paterno.

Trustees announce Paterno's immediate dismissal.

Students riot, (if you can really call it that as there have been more disruptive gatherings for the Bulls wining the NBA Championship.) due to the now perceived disrespect Paterno is getting from the school he almost singlehandedly put on the map.

The students are not upset about Paterno and his having to step down because of the situation, they are upset because they feel that even under the circumstances, he deserves better treatment due to what he has meant to and given to Penn State.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that good deeds do not and cannot diminish a persons ethical responsibilities. Regardless of how much money he gave or how much good he did for the school Paterno's failure to inquire deeper into the matter was a profound lapse of what should be considered a reasonable professional responsibility of any educator. He knew of eye witness testimony from a person who he had continued contact with for nearly a decade and from what we know he never attempted to see if any criminal action was being taken against someone accused by said witness of a heinous crime.

Any lack of respect has to be laid at the feet of Paterno for attempting to finish out the season instead of immediately resigning once his inaction became clear. Honoring his achievements in sports or advancement of education is vastly outweighed by the far more pressing need to honor the victims and their families and take responsibility for his lack of action.

Regardless of whether Paterno fulfilled his legal responsibilities he utterly failed to fulfill the basic ethical responsibilities that any human being should have. When one has eyewitness testimony of a child molestation the pretense that simply passing it on and then failing to follow through about it is in any way morally acceptable is frankly sickening. And it wasn't a failure to follow up over a short time but for 9 fucking years!

Even if not criminally liable the institution of Penn State should be shamed by this gross negligence of basic human dignity. The administration shamed by their lack of action and the faculty and students should be shamed by their connection to an institution that would allow such an occurrence.

Penn State put the reputation of their school over checking on the welfare of a child. I repeat, Penn State put the reputation of their school over checking on the welfare of a child. There are few things more vile.

[Havok]

You are still missing, purposely obviously, the MILLIONS of dollars that Paterno personally raised and donated to improve the entire campus of Penn State. His efforts to make education and the future of not just his athletes, but the student body a focus and not a side activity to football and other sports are a staple of why he is so beloved by the students, school, state and a plethora of alumni that credit him with making them better people just by being around him.

But keep your head buried in the sand because you don't like college football or whatever and ignore the reasons why this is such a big deal.

[Terralthra]

I'm not going to turn into a defender of Paterno here, but you are going overboard.

JERRY SANDUSKY facilitated the anal rape of children, by finding devious and varied ways to do it for decades.

No, Sandusky perpetrated the rapes. As in, did the raping. Paterno facilitated the rapes, by providing space in which they could continue to happen, and - much more to the point - doing so after having been informed by an eyewitness that this was going on. That's what 'facilitation' is: providing the perpetrator with assistance in committing his crimes. The degree to which Paterno may be a nice guy, a wonderful role-model, whatever, is not relevant. He did what he did: heard an eyewitness report of child-rape and failed to act in a responsible or even by most any definition moral manner.

You can't hold someone morally responsible for facilitating something they didn't know was going on. After he was informed by the graduate assistant, and subsequently informed the athletic director, Curley and another superior, Schultz, Sandusky was told "not to bring any children from Second Mile to the football building," an response taken by Schultz and Curley, and approved by the University President.

The chain, to me, appears to be this:
Graduate assistant (McQueary) and janitor both witness Sandusky performing sex acts with children.
Janitor does not recognize Sandusky, and takes no action. Does not tell police.
McQueary tells his father, who tells McQueary to tell Coach Paterno.
McQueary tells Paterno. Does not tell police, tells direct superior.
Paterno tells Athletic Director Curley and University Senior VP Schultz. Does not tell police, tells direct superiors.
Schultz and Curley tell University President Spanier....something. Unclear on what exactly. Do no tell police, tell direct superior.
Some combination of Schultz and Curley decide to forbid Sandusky from bringing children into PSU facilities, with Spanier's approval. None tell the police, and some combination of the three decide appropriate response to sexual assault is to keep it from happening again at PSU.

Again, Paterno didn't do "nothing." He reported it to his direct superiors, both the Senior VP and the Athletic Director. Should he have gone to the police? Absolutely, but with what? All he could tell the police is that he had hearsay reports of an illegal act. He didn't witness anything, at least per the grand jury. The onus to go to the police must foremost be on either a) the direct witnesses or b) whichever link on the chain decided to take action themselves rather than involving the constabulary. There's plenty of blame to justify firing everyone else involved too, but the prison time should be going to people who witnessed something and didn't tell the police themselves, or the people who had a heinous crime reported to them and decided to take administrative action without involving the police.

Paterno is one link in the chain of people who "told their boss," and I don't understand why the outrage is being so specifically directed at him by so many media outlets.

[Havok]

The problem with this line of reasoning is that good deeds do not and cannot diminish a persons ethical responsibilities. Regardless of how much money he gave or how much good he did for the school Paterno's failure to inquire deeper into the matter was a profound lapse of what should be considered a reasonable professional responsibility of any educator. He knew of eye witness testimony from a person who he had continued contact with for nearly a decade and from what we know he never attempted to see if any criminal action was being taken against someone accused by said witness of a heinous crime.

Any lack of respect has to be laid at the feet of Paterno for attempting to finish out the season instead of immediately resigning once his inaction became clear. Honoring his achievements in sports or advancement of education is vastly outweighed by the far more pressing need to honor the victims and their families and take responsibility for his lack of action.

Regardless of whether Paterno fulfilled his legal responsibilities he utterly failed to fulfill the basic ethical responsibilities that any human being should have. When one has eyewitness testimony of a child molestation the pretense that simply passing it on and then failing to follow through about it is in any way morally acceptable is frankly sickening. And it wasn't a failure to follow up over a short time but for 9 fucking years!

Even if not criminally liable the institution of Penn State should be shamed by this gross negligence of basic human dignity. The administration shamed by their lack of action and the faculty and students should be shamed by their connection to an institution that would allow such an occurrence.

Penn State put the reputation of their school over checking on the welfare of a child. I repeat, Penn State put the reputation of their school over checking on the welfare of a child. There are few things more vile.

I agree with all of this.

The issue is, with singling out Paterno. As Kanastrous ignorantly keeps point out, Paterno is just a guy that is good at game planning silly games that mean nothing. So why is this body, as well as most of the other people talking about this mad because he is not a Detective?
People keep asking why he didn't follow up? How do we know he didn't?

That's the problem I have. As I said in the NCAA thread, there are far too many unanswered questions. Who knew what and when? We don't have a full landscape of those answers, especially as it pertains to Paterno.

[Kanastrous]

You can't hold someone morally responsible for facilitating something they didn't know was going on. After he was informed by the graduate assistant,

Yes, after he was informed by the graduate assistant. I'm open to the possibility that I'm missing something very basic, but once you have been told that something is going on by an eyewitness, you can no longer be described by phrases like "they didn't know was going on."

Again, Paterno didn't do "nothing." He reported it to his direct superiors, both the Senior VP and the Athletic Director.

When he should have reported it to the police, as well. I find it remarkable that there's this idea that one would take an eyewitness report of the forcible anal rape of a child anywhere but the police, and right away, too.

Should he have gone to the police? Absolutely, but with what?

Perhaps something along the general lines of one of my subordinates claims that he directly witnessed the forcible anal rape of a child, and while I didn't see that myself I believe that you ought to pursue it, with him. Since he saw it. Or at least for some reason or other says he did. Here's his number. Hope you give him a call. Seems to me that a brilliant designer of complex football plays might be expected to put something like that together, for himself.

All he could tell the police is that he had hearsay reports of an illegal act. He didn't witness anything, at least per the grand jury.

See above. When you are brought a report of forcible rape, by an eyewitness with access to your facility and knowledge of your associates, who does not have apparent motive to lie, you damn well go to the police with your hearsay report. Better yet, you suggest to your subordinate something like come with me so that you can tell the police what you told me.

The onus to go to the police must foremost be on either a) the direct witnesses or b) whichever link on the chain decided to take action themselves rather than involving the constabulary.

That link is Paterno himself. The action - if you can dignify it with the word - he chose to take, was washing his hands of it by handing it off to someone else, and apparently forgetting about it as rapidly as possible.

Paterno is one link in the chain of people who "told their boss," and I don't understand why the outrage is being so specifically directed at him by so many media outlets.

Possibly because he had been for so long the object of the hero-worship that it's just a juicier story with him at the focus, rather than some junior staffer or administrative people who don't have nearly the same name-recognition. Or possibly because being the first person with real authority to receive the eyewitness report, he punted instead of taking proper and decisive action.

[Havok]

I'm not going to turn into a defender of Paterno here, but you are going overboard.

JERRY SANDUSKY facilitated the anal rape of children, by finding devious and varied ways to do it for decades.

No, Sandusky perpetrated the rapes. As in, did the raping. Paterno facilitated the rapes, by providing space in which they could continue to happen, and - much more to the point - doing so after having been informed by an eyewitness that this was going on. That's what 'facilitation' is: providing the perpetrator with assistance in committing his crimes. The degree to which Paterno may be a nice guy, a wonderful role-model, whatever, is not relevant. He did what he did: heard an eyewitness report of child-rape and failed to act in a responsible or even by most any definition moral manner.

You can't hold someone morally responsible for facilitating something they didn't know was going on. After he was informed by the graduate assistant, and subsequently informed the athletic director, Curley and another superior, Schultz, Sandusky was told "not to bring any children from Second Mile to the football building," an response taken by Schultz and Curley, and approved by the University President.

The chain, to me, appears to be this:
Graduate assistant (McQueary) and janitor both witness Sandusky performing sex acts with children.
Janitor does not recognize Sandusky, and takes no action. Does not tell police.
McQueary tells his father, who tells McQueary to tell Coach Paterno.
McQueary tells Paterno. Does not tell police, tells direct superior.
Paterno tells Athletic Director Curley and University Senior VP Schultz. Does not tell police, tells direct superiors.
Schultz and Curley tell University President Spanier....something. Unclear on what exactly. Do no tell police, tell direct superior.
Some combination of Schultz and Curley decide to forbid Sandusky from bringing children into PSU facilities, with Spanier's approval. None tell the police, and some combination of the three decide appropriate response to sexual assault is to keep it from happening again at PSU.

Again, Paterno didn't do "nothing." He reported it to his direct superiors, both the Senior VP and the Athletic Director. Should he have gone to the police? Absolutely, but with what? All he could tell the police is that he had hearsay reports of an illegal act. He didn't witness anything, at least per the grand jury. The onus to go to the police must foremost be on either a) the direct witnesses or b) whichever link on the chain decided to take action themselves rather than involving the constabulary. There's plenty of blame to justify firing everyone else involved too, but the prison time should be going to people who witnessed something and didn't tell the police themselves, or the people who had a heinous crime reported to them and decided to take administrative action without involving the police.

Paterno is one link in the chain of people who "told their boss," and I don't understand why the outrage is being so specifically directed at him by so many media outlets.

The issue that people, and I, have with this, is that "Paterno's Superiors" is something of a myth at Penn State, which is why I have been prefacing it with "technically". That said, there has been a rift growing between the Board of Trustees and Paterno that has been resistant to stepping down from his head coaching position, so it is quite possibly that internally, Paterno hasn't had the power that he has had in the past.

Also, there is still some uncertainty to what exactly McQuarry told Paterno, and personally, I have a hard time believing that he would not take further action if he had the details that McQuarry told the GJ. Based on what people close to and who know Paterno say, there is no way he would allow it to happen or continue if he did.

IF he told Paterno exactly what he saw, then Paterno is deserving of every negative thing that comes from this.

[Thanas]

Hav, McQuery testified under oath that the recalled the events to Paterno. The sugarcoating "vague terms" stem only from Paterno's testimony, not McQuery's. Your scenario would require that McQuery told one sanitized version to Paterno and a more graphic one to the other staff. I really doubt this was the case, for it assumes McQuery had an active agenda of protecting Sandusky. Rather, it sounds to me as if Paterno engaged in ass-covering in front of the grand jury.

So who do you believe: The guy who chose to report the rape in the first question, or the guy who failed to investigate or follow up on the investigation? Which one of these has more reasons to lie?


EDIT: Hijack split, please continue.