Forced marriages in Germany much higher

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by Thanas »

Spiegel
Forced Marriages in Germany More Prevalent than Thought

A new study has revealed that thousands of young women and girls in forced marriages seek help every year in Germany. The vast majority of victims come from Muslim families, and many have been threatened with violence or even death. The numbers involved are much higher than previously suspected.

More women and girls living in Germany are being forced into marriage under the threat of violence than previously thought, according to a new study released by the German government on Wednesday.

In 2008, the most recent year for which statistics are available, 3,443 people sought help at counseling and information centers because they had already been, or were being, forced into marriage. The vast majority of those victims were women or girls, but 6 percent were young men, who, like many of the women, sought help because they were threatened with violence if they did not go through with the marriage.

The new study was presented Wednesday in Berlin by Family Minister Kristina Schröder and the federal integration commissioner, Maria Böhmer, both members of Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservative Christian Democratic Union. "Those who force their children against their will to marry someone they don't love, or who is a complete stranger, are committing brutal violence against them," Schröder said in a statement.

The German human rights organization Terre des Femmes had previously estimated that in Germany more than a thousand women and girls from immigrant families seek help from counseling centers each year. Schröder has called for the issue of forced marriage to be discussed more in German schools.

Some Threatened with Death


For the current study, 1,445 different counseling centers and other institutions were asked to participate in the survey. A total of 830 responded, including schools, immigrant aid organizations and so-called integration centers, which provide language and orientation courses for immigrants. The results also provide information on the heritage, age and prior history of the victims. The report revealed that one-third of victims were threatened with death if they did not go through with the forced marriage. The vast majority -- 83.4 percent -- of the victims of forced marriage come from households with Muslim parents. According to the Süddeutsche Zeitung newspaper, almost two-thirds of the cases come from devout religious families.

Many of the victims experienced extreme violence, and 27 percent were threatened with weapons or with death. Almost a third of those forced into marriage in Germany were 17 years old or younger, and another 40 percent were between the ages of 18 and 21.

Almost all of the victims came from immigrant families, but a third of the women and girls were born in Germany. Twenty-three percent of the victims were born in Turkey, the country from which the largest share of victims came, followed by Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro, Iraq and Afghanistan. There are around 3 million people of Turkish descent in Germany, comprising the country's largest non-German ethnic group.


On July 1, 2011, a new law went into effect in Germany in which those who force women and girls into marriage can be punished by up to five years in prison. Böhmer, the federal integration minister, said in a statement: "The study clearly shows that our new laws in the fight against forced marriage were right and necessary."

Böhmer noted that in many of the cases the women were forced to leave the country after marrying. They would now have the legal right to return to Germany within 10 years, she explained. "The message is that we are not leaving girls and young women who have grown up in Germany and gone to school here on their own," she said.
Goddamn it. More than three times as many forced marriages than even the most radical estimates previously claimed?

But sure, we don't have any problems with muslim immigrants in this country nor with the turkish immigrants....
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
evilsoup
Jedi Knight
Posts: 793
Joined: 2011-04-01 11:41am
Location: G-D SAVE THE QUEEN

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by evilsoup »

We have a similar problem in the UK, except here it's with Pakistani Muslims shipping their daughters back to Pakistan. I have also heard some horror stories WRT Turkish marriages from my Nan (she used to work for local council, something to do with council housing).

But Thanas, you know that we're not supposed to criticise them for this, it's their 'culture'.
And also one of the ingredients to making a pony is cocaine. -Darth Fanboy.

My Little Warhammer: Friendship is Heresy - Latest Chapter: 7 - Rainbow Crash
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by Thanas »

It is not. I know plenty of Turkish people who do not sell their daughters to be raped forever. This is an issue of education and the state being more active.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
evilsoup
Jedi Knight
Posts: 793
Joined: 2011-04-01 11:41am
Location: G-D SAVE THE QUEEN

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by evilsoup »

There certainly is a cultural element to it, otherwise it's impossible to explain why the 'vast majority' of victims are from Muslim families. And it's not a matter of 'selling' their daughters (well, some of the cases probably are), the thing stems from certain groups being too insular and having a strong patriarchy; generally, the parents genuinely think that forcing their daughters to marry some forty-year-old fat guy is the right thing to do. Then you have all that 'honour' idiocy (another cultural factor), so that even if they can see that their daughter doesn't want to go through with the marriage - well, they've given their word, they can't go back now without dishonouring the whole family.

Of course, none of this excuses or lessens the evil being committed here. And I agree that education and greater state action are how this must be dealt with - to eradicate this nasty part of culture (just as education and state action should be used to eradicate certain parts of my own culture: due to those methods we're a lot less racist than we used to be, and the government is actively targeting the culture of binge drinking).

Recognising that a culture has bad aspects as well as good doesn't mean you have to reject it all together or tell immigrants 'you have to lose all your identity and become EXACTLY LIKE US'.
And also one of the ingredients to making a pony is cocaine. -Darth Fanboy.

My Little Warhammer: Friendship is Heresy - Latest Chapter: 7 - Rainbow Crash
User avatar
Count Chocula
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1821
Joined: 2008-08-19 01:34pm
Location: You've asked me for my sacrifice, and I am winter born

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by Count Chocula »

Thanas: are these legal immigrants? If they are illegal immigrants, my perception is that these forced or, to be polite, arranged marriages are terrible for the victims but have little impact on German society. If, however, these Muslims are legal immigrants and thousands of forced marriages are occurring, that appears to be a violation of German law that can be handled in the courts. Theoretically, anyway. If they are legal immigrants and these forced marriages are deemed legal, the consequences could be...interesting. Feel free to correct me.
evilsoup wrote:Recognising that a culture has bad aspects as well as good doesn't mean you have to reject it all together or tell immigrants 'you have to lose all your identity and become EXACTLY LIKE US'.
This is a little hyperbolic. Legal immigrants are EXPECTED to assimilate. That does not mean that an immigrant culture's identity disintegrates, hello Chinatown and Ybor City! What it does mean is that those immigrants are expected to follow the laws of their adopted homeland.
Image
The only people who were safe were the legion; after one of their AT-ATs got painted dayglo pink with scarlet go faster stripes, they identified the perpetrators and exacted revenge. - Eleventh Century Remnant

Lord Monckton is my heeerrooo

"Yeah, well, fuck them. I never said I liked the Moros." - Shroom Man 777
User avatar
evilsoup
Jedi Knight
Posts: 793
Joined: 2011-04-01 11:41am
Location: G-D SAVE THE QUEEN

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by evilsoup »

The issue isn't whether they are breaking the law - in most cases they clearly are. German courts may not be prosecuting as much as they should be (this was the case in the UK until recently, government agencies wouldn't do anything because they were afraid of coming across as racist/insensitive to people's culture; there was a bit of a stink about it, and now we have a bunch of specially-targeted stuff and education in schools that support Pakistani communities), but even if the courts are doing everything possible, that's missing the point.

The point is that this is seen as acceptable by some parts of the Turkish communities in Germany. Just going for convictions in court isn't sufficient; you need widespread education/propaganda to put a stop to it.
And also one of the ingredients to making a pony is cocaine. -Darth Fanboy.

My Little Warhammer: Friendship is Heresy - Latest Chapter: 7 - Rainbow Crash
User avatar
Count Chocula
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1821
Joined: 2008-08-19 01:34pm
Location: You've asked me for my sacrifice, and I am winter born

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by Count Chocula »

evilsoup, conceded. It appears that the Turkish immigrants into Germany, legal or not, have not assimilated. That's a problem. Education would help. Assimilated future generations would help more.
Image
The only people who were safe were the legion; after one of their AT-ATs got painted dayglo pink with scarlet go faster stripes, they identified the perpetrators and exacted revenge. - Eleventh Century Remnant

Lord Monckton is my heeerrooo

"Yeah, well, fuck them. I never said I liked the Moros." - Shroom Man 777
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by Thanas »

I agree on that, the problem is that we have royally neglected education, stronger state sanctions and integration over the last...oh, thirty years? It is only now that people are waking up to this problem, previously it was all "they are going to assimilate by themselves", "the state has no right to rip away their culture" or the good old "I don't see a problem/don't care because I am idealistic/stupid/racist".
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
evilsoup
Jedi Knight
Posts: 793
Joined: 2011-04-01 11:41am
Location: G-D SAVE THE QUEEN

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by evilsoup »

I can't speak for Germany, obviously, but over here it was more good intentions than racism that led to ... I guess you could call it 'institutional blindness' towards forced marriage. Sort of a reaction against institutional racism and prejudice, but they ended up going too far the other way and being hypersensitive.
And also one of the ingredients to making a pony is cocaine. -Darth Fanboy.

My Little Warhammer: Friendship is Heresy - Latest Chapter: 7 - Rainbow Crash
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by Thanas »

That is my impression of how it went in Germany as well.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
hongi
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1952
Joined: 2006-10-15 02:14am
Location: Sydney

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by hongi »

Thanas wrote:It is not. I know plenty of Turkish people who do not sell their daughters to be raped forever. This is an issue of education and the state being more active.
But are they the religious, rural people? The culture in rural areas is a bit different from the cities I'd imagine.
weemadando
SMAKIBBFB
Posts: 19195
Joined: 2002-07-28 12:30pm
Contact:

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by weemadando »

This kind of stuff came out in Australia this week too.

Hundreds of girls brought to Australia by older men
User avatar
spaceviking
Jedi Knight
Posts: 853
Joined: 2008-03-20 05:54pm

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by spaceviking »

weemadando wrote:This kind of stuff came out in Australia this week too.

Hundreds of girls brought to Australia by older men
I would say the Australian example is quite different. In Germany a significant population is engaging in archaic practices due to Germany's failure to assimilate its non-German population; In Australia some creepy old men are being creepy.
User avatar
madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6259
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by madd0ct0r »

hmm, yeah, sexpats chasing lolitas is a recurrent thing here - aussies and brits importing thais, thais and koreans importing vietnamese, Filipinos playing the game both ways,

Query, Spaceviking - is this the failure of Germany to assimilate it's non-German population or the failure of the non-german population to assimilate?
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
User avatar
Vendetta
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10895
Joined: 2002-07-07 04:57pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by Vendetta »

hongi wrote:
Thanas wrote:It is not. I know plenty of Turkish people who do not sell their daughters to be raped forever. This is an issue of education and the state being more active.
But are they the religious, rural people? The culture in rural areas is a bit different from the cities I'd imagine.
If Germany's immigrant demographic is like the UK, they'll be inner city people, usually living in areas with significant immigrant concentrations.
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by K. A. Pital »

Frankfurt's ghetto districts are full of them. They tend to live in the bigger cities wherever you go.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
hongi
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1952
Joined: 2006-10-15 02:14am
Location: Sydney

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by hongi »

Vendetta wrote:
If Germany's immigrant demographic is like the UK, they'll be inner city people, usually living in areas with significant immigrant concentrations.
No, I meant that Turks from rural areas of Turkey would be different from Turks living in the urban areas of Turkey.
User avatar
spaceviking
Jedi Knight
Posts: 853
Joined: 2008-03-20 05:54pm

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by spaceviking »

Query, Spaceviking - is this the failure of Germany to assimilate it's non-German population or the failure of the non-german population to assimilate?
I'm not the expert here; However, I would say any a nation that creates a situation where an immigrant population is able to survive and prosper for generations without learning basic things like the local language has failed in terms of assimilation. I think Germany's president has said as much before "Multiculturalism has been a failure" or some such.
User avatar
LaCroix
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5196
Joined: 2004-12-21 12:14pm
Location: Sopron District, Hungary, Europe, Terra

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by LaCroix »

As far as I know, most turkish immigrants to Germany (and Austria - we have the same problems) are poor farmers (mostly Anatolian) that can't find employment in Turkish cities. If they can raise enough funds to emigrate, they go here, and are exactly the type that won't integrate easily. Some Turkish guys I know told me that in Turkey, people say they are glad that they can export these guys to europe and don't have to deal with them. Asking some Turkish travel agent while on holiday in Turkey confirmed that this sentiment exists.

They usually try to raise their children as "Turks", (basically their own HPCA version of it) so the integration only happens very gradually.
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.
User avatar
evilsoup
Jedi Knight
Posts: 793
Joined: 2011-04-01 11:41am
Location: G-D SAVE THE QUEEN

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by evilsoup »

There are problems with multiculturalism (which has been the policy in the UK for quite a while), but it isn't all bad. Compare with France, where there is a much more forceful policy of intergration, and which is plagued by riots from their Muslim minorities; something that simply doesn't happen here (and I haven't heard of anything like that in Germany either).

Actually, that would be interesting - comparing the numbers/proportion of forced marriages in France compared to Germany and the UK, to see if multiculturalism is really to blame. Any ideas about where to find such information?
And also one of the ingredients to making a pony is cocaine. -Darth Fanboy.

My Little Warhammer: Friendship is Heresy - Latest Chapter: 7 - Rainbow Crash
Teebs
Jedi Master
Posts: 1090
Joined: 2006-11-18 10:55am
Location: Europe

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by Teebs »

evilsoup wrote:Actually, that would be interesting - comparing the numbers/proportion of forced marriages in France compared to Germany and the UK, to see if multiculturalism is really to blame. Any ideas about where to find such information?
I'm not sure it would be possible to make a good comparison. Since it's both illegal and culturally sensitive, I wouldn't trust figures from different countries to have the same basis.
User avatar
Rabid
Jedi Knight
Posts: 891
Joined: 2010-09-18 05:20pm
Location: The Land Of Cheese

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by Rabid »

About statistics on forced marriage : unless I'm mistaken, these statistics will only show the cases where people will have decided to refuse said marriages, or at least try to have them canceled after the facts. As such, it can't be considered an accurate representation of the practice itself, but of the reactions against such practice.
Who know how many more people really are forced into these arranged marriage ?

Also :
evilsoup wrote:and which is plagued by riots from their Muslim minorities
Minor nitpick, but the riots in themselves does not come from the fact that they are muslim ; but from the fact that they are parked into ghettos with little to no chance of ever escalating the social ladder, the school system having neglected and treated them as "lost causes" since middle school or even before.
This is also why there are a sizeable part of non-muslims in these "let's destroy private properties !" parties : These are just a product of our country's current process of social decay in general.
User avatar
evilsoup
Jedi Knight
Posts: 793
Joined: 2011-04-01 11:41am
Location: G-D SAVE THE QUEEN

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by evilsoup »

Now that's interesting: you're saying that in France, which rejected multiculturalism as a policy, ethnic/cultural minorities are separated from the mainstream into ghettos anyway? This would imply that all those politicians saying that multiculturalism has failed because minorities don't integrate are talking out of their arses, since apparently they aren't integrating in France either... what on Earth would I use as search terms to find out figures about 'integration' anyway? It sounds like the kind of thing the EU would monitor.
Rabid wrote:These are just a product of our country's current process of social decay in general.
Oh god, you realise that makes you sound like one of those whiny Americans? I mean, I'm sure France has it's problems, but come on it's still one of the best countries to live in. 'Social decay' makes it sound like an inevitable process. And I'm British, so my default response is to put your country down at every opportunity.
And also one of the ingredients to making a pony is cocaine. -Darth Fanboy.

My Little Warhammer: Friendship is Heresy - Latest Chapter: 7 - Rainbow Crash
User avatar
Rabid
Jedi Knight
Posts: 891
Joined: 2010-09-18 05:20pm
Location: The Land Of Cheese

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by Rabid »

They aren't in ethnic ghettoes. They are in poor ghettoes. Which happens to be mostly populated by immigrants or descendant-of-immigrants, most of them of muslim faiths, from Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia or the rest of the empire (please note that most of these people nowadays are Second or Third Generations immigrants, of French Nationality). The causes are different, the consequences are the same.
Now, as these ghettoes are in majority populated by muslims, you get to see people jumping to conclusions, including the muslims themselves. It's a self-perpetuating cycle of discrimination and self-discrimination ; people constructing their identity in opposition to the one of their "oppressor".
See : most of the lyrics of French Rap.
User avatar
evilsoup
Jedi Knight
Posts: 793
Joined: 2011-04-01 11:41am
Location: G-D SAVE THE QUEEN

Re: Forced marriages in Germany much higher

Post by evilsoup »

That seems like a pretty fine distinction to me. A 'poor' ghetto that just happens to be full of a certain cultural group (obviously not an ethnicity, I'd say that's too broad a selection of countries)? I'd call that a 'cultural' ghetto. I'm not saying that it's deliberate policy on the part of the French government (though I wouldn't put it past Sarkozy), just noting that French integrationist policies don't seem to have been effective in their goal. Or at least, not more effective than multiculturalism.

But of course, this is all based off of generalisations. We really need some figures to continue this discussion in any meaningful way... but I have no idea where to go about looking for them.
And also one of the ingredients to making a pony is cocaine. -Darth Fanboy.

My Little Warhammer: Friendship is Heresy - Latest Chapter: 7 - Rainbow Crash
Post Reply