New Redletter Media video about Lucas

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

Because we're defending it from extremist fanboy criticisms which are just stupid, regardless of the quality of the movie itself. Stoklasa's review is mindless, shameless dishonesty from beginning to end, up to and including unsupported insinuations about the way Lucas treats his employees. Elfdart is completely right when he says its stupidity is contagious. It completely lowered the quality of SW discussion in the fandom.

Can you provide me with an example of quality discussion? Because if your main argument is 10 year olds get the gist, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about in regards to film criticism.

SW is a movie series that deals in simple good and evil. Villains are practically evil for the sake of being evil. The Galactic Empire was simply said to be "evil." Had TPM not mentioned the taxes AT ALL, and simply stated that the Trade Fed was "blockading Naboo," the movie would have worked just the same. Mentioning the taxes at all is arguably more than Lucas even had to do.

The taxes are a line of trivia. A brief few words meant to remind people of the way some real wars actually start, as well as to emphasize the greediness of the Trade Fed. Also, maybe imply that the Republic is so weak and corrupt that simple economic disputes can tear it apart now. That's all. The movie is about shoot outs, sword fights, and beating the designated bad guys.

Once again we're talking about motivation. Being evil to gain more power is fine for simplicity, but without motivation nothing matters and the writing is incompetent. Even the most base movie will have motivation for both side to be shooting and sword fighting between the two sides. You are right though, starting the movie with the TF blockading Naboo with no mention of taxes would have left the movie unchanged, because we still wouldn't know what their motivation was and you'd still like an awful movie.

[Jim Raynor]

SW is a movie series that deals in simple good and evil. Villains are practically evil for the sake of being evil. The Galactic Empire was simply said to be "evil." Had TPM not mentioned the taxes AT ALL, and simply stated that the Trade Fed was "blockading Naboo," the movie would have worked just the same. Mentioning the taxes at all is arguably more than Lucas even had to do.

Yeah, we get it. You don't care that much about plotting when it comes to Hollywood blockbusters. Again, that's your opinion and that's fine.

Spare me the same nonsense that you keep going back to over and over again. The taxes are not "plotting." The plot is the actual story that we see unfolding over the course of the movie. The taxes were a line of trivia that need not have been included at all. The movie could have simply said that the "greedy Federation" was "blockading the small world of Naboo" and that would have been that.

I pointed out already that even IF Lucas felt the need to spell this out, and dropped in a throwaway line like "We won't release Naboo unless the taxes are lifted," it would change nothing about the story, characters, or action. Everyone agree with that?

As I said before, this whole stupid 22 page thread is about the redefinition of normal by certain people, who are blinded to how hard they're grasping to find fault with this movie. I recall a while ago, you and several other people tried to portray me as some kind of abnormal freak (who couldn't "process fiction") for not giving a crap about this line of trivia. How you tried to twist ANH to suit your ends, claiming that the Death Star plans were some critical part of its story, without which ANH would no longer "be a good movie." The Death Star plans that I later showed to be an utterly extraneous plot device, that is alternately redundant, deprioritized, ignored, or even given away over the course of the movie. Are you still going to stick up for that nonsense, the way that other guy threw in his support for that idiotic idea of beating a blockade by hunting wildlife (or eating stores of MREs that were never mentioned, big difference!). Do you still stick by your previous nonsense about how jamming comms during a military attack needs to be explained?

Because THAT is the mindset from which you guys are arguing. It's ridiculous and surreal.

But for the fucking 1000th time, you have to at least admit that the plotting in TPM is drastically bare-bones compared with most other movies, even other mindless Hollywood blockbusters.

Please. TPM comments on things like parent/child relationships, institutional conformity and decay, and government corruption. It lays the groundwork for who Anakin is as a person, and why relationship with Obi-Wan is strained in the later movies. That's not "bare-bones" compared to "other mindless Hollywood blockbusters."

The Galactic Empire was evil for the sake of evil, yeah, but every action they took had an explicit, clearly explained goal: capture the Deathstar plans, attack Hoth, get the Millenium Falcon, etc.

Is this supposed to support your above claim about TPM being "bare-bones"? So...you admit that the Empire was evil for the sake of being evil. But it's SO MUCH BETTER because you can sum up what they're doing in two words. Which is not bare-bones? Which is so much more simple and clear than "get our way with an economic dispute?"

Please, tell me that the "greedy" Trade Federation with a trade franchise not liking taxes on trade is hard to understand again. I need a good laugh.

Since you finally seem to be implicitly conceding that TPM doesn't provide an explanation for the actions of the main antagonists (except in extremely broad strokes),

I've been saying it UP FRONT from the very start, about how the tax dispute is a virtual MacGuffin which matters little to the actual conflict that it escalated into. How it's almost like whining about how WWI started because some 19 year old kid shot an Archduke somewhere. Stop acting like you've forced me into a bad position. Stop pretending like you're smart, when you can't even seem to keep up.

Amazing how certain people assert their superiority, over their own inability to understand a line of trivia in a movie written for kids and family audiences. That's the basic appeal of the RLM review, as I see it. It gives a voice to, and falsely empowers everybody who wants to think themselves better or smarter without doing anything to earn it. They're supposedly smarter and better than other people for asking stupid questions, and for expressing exaggerated hatred for a movie.

[Jim Raynor]

Because we're defending it from extremist fanboy criticisms which are just stupid, regardless of the quality of the movie itself. Stoklasa's review is mindless, shameless dishonesty from beginning to end, up to and including unsupported insinuations about the way Lucas treats his employees. Elfdart is completely right when he says its stupidity is contagious. It completely lowered the quality of SW discussion in the fandom.

Can you provide me with an example of quality discussion?

Just look at yourself, man. Sucking up so bad to Stoklasa, to the point that you question the very validity of refuting his errors. Refresh my memory again. Were you one of his fanboys that signed up on this forum specifically to defend his honor? That was one of the saddest things I've seen in a long time.

Because if your main argument is 10 year olds get the gist, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about in regards to film criticism.

But spewing nonsense about negating a blockade by forcing everyone to hunt animals or eat unmentioned stocks of MREs, when real economies can fall into "crisis" over whether some credit rating agency thinks the USA is a "AAA" or "AA+" (ask the average person on the street to even explain what the hell that means), is good film criticism. Because asking why anyone would ever jam the other side during a military attack is good film criticism. Whining about a throwaway MacGuffin reason (or the one throwaway line that could've been inserted to spell it out) to fight for twenty pages is good film criticism. Stuttering like a retard and lying for over an hour is good film criticism.

The beginning of your post here already outed you as a RLM suck up and virtual troll. I've honestly given your more time in this post than you deserve.

[Jim Raynor]

...and the characters within the movie point out it's a nonsensical move. Just how much clearer could it get that this is a plot hole the movie itself begs to get filled? If villains do seemingly counter-intuitive and irrational things it has to be explained why they do so,

In real life, arrogant people do stupid things in excess of their actual power. Hitler thought it was smart to open up a two-front war and invade the Soviets. The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, which belonged to a country with such industrial might that it could simply drown them in men and weapons. Saddam invaded Kuwait, and then stood his ground as the USA and several dozen other nations rose up against him. Gadhafi thought he'd be OK when he practically dared NATO into bombing him, with his public statments about how he would "show no mercy" to the people of Benghazi.

Man, stuff like that never happens. It all needs to be "explained."

otherwise they look like a bunch of brain-addled, dumb idiots which diminishes every victory scored over them by the good guys.

Like Tarkin and the Emperor practically handing victory to the Rebels? Stupid villains are found throughout fiction, including the original SW movies that raging fanboys don't want to apply a consistent standard to.

Lucas decided the main antagonist from TPM to be a trading company. Trading companies act out of different motives than mercenary bands, roving gangs of bandits or a fascistic military force. They usually are not armed to the teeth, much less armed to the extent of being able to invade and occupy entire worlds.

The Trade Federation controls territory, has Senate representation, and proposes treaties with a sovereign world not even as an equal, but as a superior. Its top guy is not called the "CEO" or anything like that, but the "Viceroy." The dictionary defines viceroy as a governor or a representative of a monarch. The Trade Fed was portrayed as a semi-autonomous sub-government within the Republic, like the Naboo were, that takes an active hand in business.

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

I've must agree with Destructionator XIII.

Unless Raynor can stop lying, ignoring direct questions and stating the same tired argument. I don't see much point in engaging him.

It's possible he's just too dumb to understand story structure, what a mcguffin actual is and how criticize works, but that wouldn't make the conversation any better.

[Gunhead]

Like Tarkin and the Emperor practically handing victory to the Rebels? Stupid villains are found throughout fiction, including the original SW movies that raging fanboys don't want to apply a consistent standard to.

So you think losing to a group that actually has a plan in place, have some weak spot they can affect, have the means to do it and going at it knowing it's a long shot is worse than losing because of dumb luck made flesh?
Tarkin shouldn't have let those plans go, but at least he aknowledged the fact he was taking a risk. But hey at that point the rebels didn't even know if they'd find anything in those plans so it's not a huge leap to assume Tarkin didn't either. Option two is he knows and that is what causes him to take pause, which is then later brought up again when he is informed that there is a risk and the rebels might in fact succeed. Leia expressly states on screen that she hopes a weakness can be found. But the whole rebel plan is almost foiled by Vader and it would have been if Han hadn't come back and saved Luke's ass allowing him to blow up the DS. Now you can whine about Luke's shot being dumb luck too, but at least he fucking knew what he was gunning for.

Palpy made a mistake but like he could have know his plan would be foiled by a group of teddy bears and for all points and purposes it was, you take away the teddies and the rebel victory goes up in smoke. But it doesn't diminish the actions of the others. Ackbar is ready to pull the plug and bail when Lando tells him to stay and fight to the bitter end, doing so only because he has faith Han will pull through and probably being correct about this is being their only chance to destroy the emperor and the DSII. Here the dumb luck factor is mostly the Ewoks, but they get used in a fashion that makes sense and are not the sum all of what makes the rebel plan work.

Both Palpy and Tarkin can be called stupid, but mostly after the fact. The TF can be called stupid for blindly following a bathrobe guy to their doom and even after the fact.. I mean .. sure maybe the TF didn't know how their own droids work.. but if this is the case they're the biggest morons in all of scifi. In a world where you have 9yo build robots that can operate indipendently, you'd think someone would have put that same functionality into a fighting droid.
Then again, the whole invasion is just a backdrop that is ignored for the most part of the movie and just needs to be resolved before the movie ends. Just like how Obi-Wan is made master to Anakin. This is also basically resolved of screen. The council just changes it's mind I guess, but I chalk this as another piece of shit writing that's rampant in the TPM.

-Gunhead

[Elfdart]

Good writers edit out irrelevant shit.

BTW you really need to stop repeating your lies.

He lied? Where?

[DudeGuyMan]

As far as I can tell Raynor has been schooling the shit out of a couple of scrubs unable to answer basic points. Also, the frantic fanboy urge to stick up for the old movies is pretty hilarious.

Fucking Tarkin was told that the Rebels, the same Rebels who sucessfully stole the plans to his Death Star, were now attacking said Death Star and his orders were "HAHA WE'RE INVINCIBLE, DO NOTHING!" He's so stupid he goes out of his way to avoid taking basic precautions like launching his hundreds of fighters to intercept the enemy, forcing Vader to go out there and try to take them out with three fighters. Then when some lackey comes up and tells Tarkin that there really is a threat and that he should get the fuck out, his reaction is "NONSENSE! IMMINENT TRIUMPH! I INSIST WE DO NOTHING!" followed by getting exploded.

If someone did some stupid shit like this in a prequel you'd have been able to hear the screaming from Pluto.

I mean jeez, suppose the Death Star didn't get destroyed and sucessfully blew up the Rebels. Great, what a heroic victory for the Empire. Then you find out that your brother was changing the filter on the thermal regulator in Death Star Surface Conduit #457,812 when a Rebel fighter flew by and killed him in a random bit of strafing. A Rebel fighter that Tarkin allowed to strafe the Death Star because he wanted to show how invincible he was and intercepting enemy fighters didn't seem very invincible. You'd want that incompetent run out of the service.

I still laugh inside though when I think about that bit from the RLM ROTS review where Palpy declares himself Emperor and the RLM guy goes "Everyone was fooled, even super genius Padamay!" like I've never fucking seen the movie and don't remember her bitter "So this is how liberty dies!" line. Like what the fuck does she need to do? Turn to the camera and go "See, even though I'm not privy to firsthand knowledge of what the Jedi actually did in Palpatine's office, I still think this is some kind of bullshit! Hence my words about the death of liberty!"

[Bakustra]

Yes, arrogance and overconfidence are inexcusable in antagonistic characters, as we saw in... the prequels? Uh, I think you're making shit up buddy, which is alternately known as "lying". But you're putting on an autistic minstrel show anyhow with your first couple paragraphs, so double-shame on you.

Finally, please stop your further dishonesty with the pretense that this is primarily about RedLetterMedia, rather than about the quality of the prequels as a whole. Thanks!

[Metahive]

I haven't even watched one single RLM video ever because I find his shtick and the hillbilly voice so gratingly annoying. I learned to dislike the PT all on my own, thank you.

Fucking Tarkin was told that the Rebels, the same Rebels who sucessfully stole the plans to his Death Star,
were now attacking said Death Star and his orders were "HAHA WE'RE INVINCIBLE, DO NOTHING!"

In case you didn't pay attention, but the chance of the rebels successfully hitting the ventilation shaft just right to destroy the DS's reactor was so vanishingly small it required someone with special talents to accomplish (if you remember, only two rebel fighters could even try and Han called the shot one in a million). Tarkin was justified in not being overly worried. Heck, if you take the novel Death Star into consideration then the rebels only won because the guy on the trigger of the superlaser hesitated for too long.

How was the droid control ship destroyed in contrast? Dumbass kid ("I try spinning, that's a great trick DOIIII!") flys into the wide open hangar and fires torpedoes right into the engine room which is conveniently located right next to the hangar. That's some stupid shit.

Don't try dragging the OT down to the level of the PT, not only is it futile, it doesn't make the PT look better one bit.

[DudeGuyMan]

Yes, arrogance and overconfidence are inexcusable in antagonistic characters, as we saw in... the prequels? Uh, I think you're making shit up buddy, which is alternately known as "lying".

Haha yeah, my completely factual recounting of the events at the end of ANH constitutes making shit up. What a crushing rebuttal you put on there. Way to go buddy. I actually really liked ANH, but yeah, let's not pretend the villains weren't idiots.

Finally, please stop your further dishonesty with the pretense that this is primarily about RedLetterMedia, rather than about the quality of the prequels as a whole. Thanks!

Weird because RLM appears to be referenced in the thread title and in other posts on this page alone! Should I be arguing over whether or not Phantom Menace "made sense" even though we didn't know exactly which parts of the tax code the Trade Federation didn't like?

In case you didn't pay attention, but the chance of the rebels successfully hitting the ventilation shaft just right to destroy the DS's reactor was so vanishingly small it required someone with special talents to accomplish (if you remember, only two rebel fighters could even try and Han called the shot one in a million). Tarkin was justified in not being overly worried. Heck, if you take the novel Death Star into consideration then the rebels only won because the guy on the trigger of the superlaser hesitated for too long.

Can you imagine if, say, the captain of a USN aircraft carrier was informed of some biplanes coming in to attack his ship, and his response was "The chance of them successfully thwarting our mission is vanishingly small, thus I command everyone to ignore them!" and they strafed the deck? (But the mission went great otherwise!) They'd cashier his ass in a heartbeat while some strafed-to-death deckhand's widow called him a shit-eating moron on the nightly news.

How was the droid control ship destroyed in contrast? Dumbass kid ("I try spinning, that's a great trick DOIIII!") flys into the wide open hangar and fires torpedoes right into the engine room which is conveniently located right next to the hangar. That's some stupid shit.

At least they sent robots to get him after he managed to fly in there by blind luck/force/whatever. They didn't cut to some Trade Fed officer being told "Aw man there's a nine-year old sitting in an enemy fighter in our hangar bay!" only to have him retort "This could never possibly be a problem, do nothing!"

[Crateria]

In case you didn't pay attention, but the chance of the rebels successfully hitting the ventilation shaft just right to destroy the DS's reactor was so vanishingly small it required someone with special talents to accomplish (if you remember, only two rebel fighters could even try and Han called the shot one in a million). Tarkin was justified in not being overly worried. Heck, if you take the novel Death Star into consideration then the rebels only won because the guy on the trigger of the superlaser hesitated for too long.

Can you imagine if, say, the captain of a USN aircraft carrier was informed of some biplanes coming in to attack his ship, and his response was "The chance of them successfully thwarting our mission is vanishingly small, thus I command everyone to ignore them!" and they strafed the deck? (But the mission went great otherwise!) They'd cashier his ass in a heartbeat while some strafed-to-death deckhand's widow called him a shit-eating moron on the nightly news.

How was the droid control ship destroyed in contrast? Dumbass kid ("I try spinning, that's a great trick DOIIII!") flys into the wide open hangar and fires torpedoes right into the engine room which is conveniently located right next to the hangar. That's some stupid shit.

At least they sent robots to get him after he managed to fly in there by blind luck/force/whatever. They didn't cut to some Trade Fed officer being told "Aw man there's a nine-year old sitting in an enemy fighter in our hangar bay!" only to have him retort "This could never possibly be a problem, do nothing!"

Because using heavy turbolasers and then switching to Vader's squadron (which nearly wiped out the Rebels) after the turbolasers don't work constitutes doing nothing.

EDIT: Ninja'd by DXIII.

[Stark]

How is ANH relevant to TPM sucking and it being possible to know that without watching nerd videos (or reading nerd PDFs)?

[Bakustra]

Yes, arrogance and overconfidence are inexcusable in antagonistic characters, as we saw in... the prequels? Uh, I think you're making shit up buddy, which is alternately known as "lying".

Haha yeah, my completely factual recounting of the events at the end of ANH constitutes making shit up. What a crushing rebuttal you put on there. Way to go buddy. I actually really liked ANH, but yeah, let's not pretend the villains weren't idiots.

Not what I said, chuckles. You are being dishonest by complaining about how people are, I dunno, "overcriticizing" TPM, and if they turned this to the OT, then they would have to hate it because... character traits (being arrogant and dumb) are exactly the same as lacking character traits (like the Trade Federation). Or, rather, you're just too defective to read what people wrote, so I guess you're not so much dishonest as just awful.

Finally, please stop your further dishonesty with the pretense that this is primarily about RedLetterMedia, rather than about the quality of the prequels as a whole. Thanks!

Weird because RLM appears to be referenced in the thread title and in other posts on this page alone! Should I be arguing over whether or not Phantom Menace "made sense" even though we didn't know exactly which parts of the tax code the Trade Federation didn't like?

Weird, because you clearly haven't read the thread beyond skimming a page at best but are trying to claim you know what it's all about, and you're too cowardly to actually present one of your actual disagreements with people. Oh the humanity!!

[Gunhead]

And of course we know from ANH that the DS carries massive amounts of fighters ready to launch at moments notice.... Oh right we don't. Spot the guy who's basing his argument on some EU source.. Go back and watch the movie again, I think Vader and his group pretty much shot to pieces all rebel attempts to target the exhaust port save for two and would have shot down Luke too unless Han had saved his ass. While you're at it Dudeguyman learn to pay attention, it was stated on screen for your benefit that a single fighter might be able to penetrate the defenses of the DS which is exactly what happened.

-Gunhead

[Galvatron]

I admire the tenacity of the prequel defenders becoming so desperate to win this argument that they're throwing the OT under the bus to do it.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Why does this thread still exist? If this were IvP, the idiotic moratorium rule would have been invoked back on page 5. If it were *any* other topic, it would have been HoS'd or locked by page 10 at the latest. I guess the debating rules don't apply when you're trying to support the holy cow. whoknew?

[KhorneFlakes]

Why does this thread still exist? If this were IvP, the idiotic moratorium rule would have been invoked back on page 5. If it were *any* other topic, it would have been HoS'd or locked by page 10 at the latest. I guess the debating rules don't apply when you're trying to support the holy cow. whoknew?

That's one thing I was wondering too. Why hasn't this shitfest been locked? It's threads like these that make me avoid posting in Pure Star Wars.

[Vympel]

Why does this thread still exist? If this were IvP

Which its not.

If it were *any* other topic, it would have been HoS'd or locked by page 10 at the latest.

On what basis?

I guess the debating rules don't apply when you're trying to support the holy cow. whoknew?

LOL. Which "debating rules" are they? The ones you pulled out of your ass? You know, you can just fuck off and stop posting if you don't care to argue anymore - your assertion that the thread is open to support "the holy cow" is simply fucking stupid. I certainly don't like the film.

[KhorneFlakes]

I'd say it's still HoS-worthy, though.

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

Good writers edit out irrelevant shit.

BTW you really need to stop repeating your lies.

He lied? Where?

Where do you want me to start? Here's one how about continuing to claim everyone criticizing TPM were "spewing nonsense about negating a blockade by forcing everyone to hunt animals or eat unmentioned stocks of MREs"

I'd say it's still HoS-worthy, though.

I agree there are so many very important threads on here and this one is just lowering the quality of all online debating. Should we move to "Sci-Fi Shocks you Never Saw Coming" Mine is TPM and how awful it was.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

@vympel

My sincere condolences on your crippling case of selective blindness, I hope it gets better soon.

Whether or not it's directly connected to the symptoms you're displaying of Linebylineitis I'm not certain, but you should seriously get that checked up. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here and assuming it's an outside factor, rather than simple idiocy, that makes you appear so stupid you actually think there's still an argument going on rather than Raynor and Elfie engaging in broken-record tactics and throwing up the WoI left and right.

Quite honestly I didn't give a shit about this thread from page one. I predicted then that it would devolve into a shouting match with folk like Raynor and Elfie-poo, and we now have nearly thirty pages of confirmation on that prediction. They're wrong, they've been conclusively proven to be wrong on multiple fronts by multiple people. The only reason this thread goes on is because they're either too stupid or too arrogant to admit it, because of the occasional passer-by who didn't read the preceding two dozen pages of stupidity before jumping in and repeating what's been debunked before, and because the topic is the holy-cow of the site and thus it's given a very lenient, hands-off approach compared to other threads that devolve into this sort of idiocy. I'm only here because I like the thought-exercises of how shitty movies could be made better, and because I find the antics of the prequationists kind of amusing in a sad, morbid way. Your complete lack of reading comprehension really isn't my concern.

[Thanas]

Ah yes, another topic where somebody who proclaims he does not give a damn then proceeds to write a rant at how bad this topic is (while still not giving a damn, of course). I am betting there will be plenty of PM comments on the part of people who really do not give a damn, but spent reading and replying to this topic. But honestly, totally not giving a damn here.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Sooo... Thanas can't read either then. I'll restate for the illiterates: I don't give a damn about the debate because it is not important to me. I do, however, enjoy the thought exercises, mostly going on between d13, e.l.b. and a few others, on how things could have been done better and why, and I get some amusement out of watching Elfie-poo and Raynor scream and thrash around.

But then again you also seem to think a couple of rather short paragraphs is 'ranting at length', so whatever.

[Thanas]

Yeah, you get so much amusement out of it that you want the topic to be closed.