1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

Post by Starglider »

Broomstick wrote:Here's how it can work out (example pulled out of my ass, but still connected to reality).
Your example is fine, but quite a signficant fraction of the population has much more equity than that. 34% of US dwellings are owned outright (as of the 2005 census; admittedly it's probably lower now). Of the remainder, the average equity is now 38% (down sharply from 61% in 2001 due to the property bubble). I don't have the data to calculate an exact figure, but I would guess about half of home owners (which are themselves 68% of families) can realise at least $100K from selling their home.

Sadly I think this remaining cushion of equity will keep erroding as house prices continue to fall and even more families are forced into rental. By 2015 the US could be looking at 30% average equity and rent vs owning approaching 50%.
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

Post by Broomstick »

The problem, Starglider, is that you're dealing with averages across the entire US. That's like averaging home prices across all of Europe, more or less ignoring the differences between, say, the UK and Bulgaria.

Home ownership is not spread uniformly, nor are foreclosures, nor anything else about this. A home worth $500,000 in Malibu, California might be worth $30,000 in Detroit.

That's why I specified buying into real estate in the past 10 years. Your averages are dealing with ALL homeowners, not relatively recent buyers. That's where you'll see the most underwater mortgages and low equity. Sure, someone who's been in a home for 40 years almost certainly has it paid off. I'm not talking about 65 year old retirees who bought four decades ago and have seen their investment pay off big. I'm talking about 20 and 30 somethings who bought in since 2000 and are now up shit creek. The retirees with the paid off house don't have to worry about being laid off, they're retired. Someone 35 or 45 who bought a house in the last 10 years, though, likely is quite vulnerable to bad scenarios.
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Simon_Jester wrote:I'm sympathetic to the idea that in the rush towards modernity we've taken a few wrong turns, forgotten a few things it would have been better to remember.
Me too, in all honesty. It is just very difficult to separate what is actual historical precedent from what is merely a misplaced nostalgia for a time that never really existed.
Simon_Jester wrote:ideologies which are self-consciously modern and which emerge out of the political discourse of the modern era, but which can have brutal, horrible consequences for the people living under them. There's fascism, the violent and oppressive forms of communism*, and plenty of others.
But are fascism and other forms of totalitarianism really completely modern ideals, and not simply the logical successors to age-old class hierarchies dating back to tribal times?

Simon_Jester wrote:Even at the time, those ideas were opposed by social conservatives whose point was that the bloody transformation of society into a new 'modern' pattern wasn't necessarily a good thing, especially if it came at the expense of traditions like "thou shalt not kill."
Is "thou shalt not kill" a tradition, or a basic component of morality? Obviously there are people in the world who kill, and have no problem doing so. But generally over the course of human history is an understanding that killing is wrong. Just because something is old, doesn't mean it's tradition.
Simon_Jester wrote:Maybe it is worth looking to the past a bit, at the least to see if there was anything they did easily then that is made hard now by the things we cast aside on the road to the modern world.
I agree. But it is easy for us to overlook the innumerable subtle ways that our current period is better. No need to talk about grand sweeping ideologies and fascism and murder. What about medicine? Nutrition? Public sanitation? Road quality? Air quality? (for all the hubbub about pollution these days, it is INFINITELY better now in cities than it was in the height of the industrial revolution. Cars and factories are more efficient now, etc. etc. Remember that it is a LUXURY to be able to talk about such things. Our society has reached the point where we can afford to discuss and make these decisions. In many developing countries, with lower standards of living, it is much harder to make these distinctions). The beautiful thing about many of these improvements is that you don't notice them at all, and only benefit indirectly. The polio vaccine? Smallpox eradication?
Simon_Jester wrote:And to me, it's looking more and more like we're going to have to accept a standard of living that looks more like the early and mid-20th century than it does like the late 20th century, only with more computers and fewer segregated water fountains.
Why? Despite the obesity 'epidemic', people are, on average, healthier than they were in the early 20th century. Cities are cleaner and safer, generally speaking (obviously there are bad areas). Despite all the complaints from hippies and the like, society is 'greener' than it has been for a centuries (you know just the idea of having parks in the city is a relatively recent invention? In the 19th century nature was considered unclean). Famines and widespread starvation are lower than they were, historically. Child mortality ... I can go on and on. Things have improved significantly just since the 1970s ... what makes you think things will revert?
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:ideologies which are self-consciously modern and which emerge out of the political discourse of the modern era, but which can have brutal, horrible consequences for the people living under them. There's fascism, the violent and oppressive forms of communism*, and plenty of others.
But are fascism and other forms of totalitarianism really completely modern ideals, and not simply the logical successors to age-old class hierarchies dating back to tribal times?
Absolutely.

Fascism could not exist without modern concepts of nationality, or modern concepts of "the state" (as opposed to medieval ones). It could not survive without use of modern techniques for mass manipulation, or without an all-pervading bureaucracy made possible by modern mass literacy, cheap printing, and organizational techniques.

If you go back past the 19th century, you cannot find a single example of a secret police force anywhere near as effective and organized as the ones in the totalitarian societies of the 20th century- because the infrastructure to do it wasn't in place. Modern technology and new techniques of organizing people give us more tools than our ancestors ever had- and tyrants can use tools too.

Now, you can say "that's still not really modern," but at that point, you're defining oppression as "primitive" and freedom as "modern." And I don't think you can do that. It strikes me as being too much a case of dismissing as primitive everything one disapproves of.
Simon_Jester wrote:Even at the time, those ideas were opposed by social conservatives whose point was that the bloody transformation of society into a new 'modern' pattern wasn't necessarily a good thing, especially if it came at the expense of traditions like "thou shalt not kill."
Is "thou shalt not kill" a tradition, or a basic component of morality?
Both.

That's my point: some things become tradition for very good reasons, and should not be dismissed simply because they are tradition. Nor should we dismiss all crimes and sins as holdovers of an evil past that somehow stuck around into a good future. The good/evil and future/past axes on which we can measure human society are independent, even if you can find a correlation between scores on the two axes.
I agree. But it is easy for us to overlook the innumerable subtle ways that our current period is better.
When I hear someone proposing to abolish public sanitation because they didn't have it in the good old days, then I will actually believe that they have forgotten that it's better to have it than to not have it. Ditto for smallpox vaccines.

But when we talk about "in the old days, the church took a large share of everyone's income and spent it on charity, why doesn't anyone do that now?" then we are not dismissing the value of public sanitation, fire, antiseptic childbirth, the wheel, the internal combustion engine, moveable type, alternating current, women's lib, umbrellas, toilet paper, racial equality, or any of the many, MANY things that humans have invented to make their lives better.
Why? Despite the obesity 'epidemic', people are, on average, healthier than they were in the early 20th century. Cities are cleaner and safer, generally speaking (obviously there are bad areas). Despite all the complaints from hippies and the like, society is 'greener' than it has been for a centuries (you know just the idea of having parks in the city is a relatively recent invention? In the 19th century nature was considered unclean). Famines and widespread starvation are lower than they were, historically. Child mortality ... I can go on and on. Things have improved significantly just since the 1970s ... what makes you think things will revert?
Yes, I know all these things; I am not a historical illiterate. But there are important things to bear in mind.

We are faced with serious limitations on the supply of cheap and easy resources that made the boom from 1950-2000 practical. Oil isn't cheap, rare metals for electronics aren't necessarily going to stay cheap, even uranium and the like can start to run low and become expensive. Fisheries are depleted, farmland is often in danger of declining. To be realistic, we are going to spend a lot of time and energy in the 21st century dealing with our environmental problems, and accepting that the planet can no longer provide as big a pie for us to divide up as it used to. We will find ways to use what we have available more efficiently, but it's still going to mean accepting inconvenience, fewer consumer gadgets per wealthy person, higher food prices, and so on.

We face corporatist oligarchies that will not easily relax their chokehold on the economy of the rich nations. Getting rid of them so that things can start growing again will take a lot of work and involve taking some damage before the dust settles. I've already basically accepted that my entire generation is going to have to work harder for less pay than its predecessors because of this- if we're lucky and bold, we'll be able to fight and win against the system and avoid the same problem falling upon our children.

We face large populations in the poorer nations that will happily compete with the rich nations and beat them at their own game, which leads to broader distribution of wealth but also means less wealth for the First World. Do not forget that there's a reason there aren't many manufacturing jobs in the US, and it's not all evil CEOs; the fact is that Chinese factory workers can and will outcompete Americans because they're willing to put up with a lower standard of living. That's bound to be reflected in the standard of living in America, even if it doesn't mean the American standard of living drops to where the Chinese standard of living is now.

There will continue to be technological and scientific progress. Things will be possible in 2100 that are not possible today. But much of the new opportunities and possibilities will have to be used to put out the fires left behind from the rapid expansion of the 20th century- there may not be enough left over to sustain 2005-style high prosperity and trouble-free living in the First World. We may find that the standard of living, distinct from matters like civil rights and urban planning, declines toward the conditions people lived in in 1975 or 1955- with more advanced gadgets, yes, but more crowded housing and more expensive staples.
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

Post by evilsoup »

Simon_Jester wrote:Fascism could not exist without modern concepts of nationality, or modern concepts of "the state" (as opposed to medieval ones). It could not survive without use of modern techniques for mass manipulation, or without an all-pervading bureaucracy made possible by modern mass literacy, cheap printing, and organizational techniques.
How precisely are you defining fascism? Because what Plato proposed in The Republic as the ideal state (the fact that he was talking about a city-state is irrelevant, I think) was pretty close to fascism, albeit with a council of philosopher-kings rather than a single strong leader. It may be that modern technology made fascism practical, but the ideas behind it (can't trust outsiders, follow the strong leader) are very very old.
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

Post by Simon_Jester »

evilsoup wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Fascism could not exist without modern concepts of nationality, or modern concepts of "the state" (as opposed to medieval ones). It could not survive without use of modern techniques for mass manipulation, or without an all-pervading bureaucracy made possible by modern mass literacy, cheap printing, and organizational techniques.
How precisely are you defining fascism? Because what Plato proposed in The Republic as the ideal state (the fact that he was talking about a city-state is irrelevant, I think) was pretty close to fascism, albeit with a council of philosopher-kings rather than a single strong leader. It may be that modern technology made fascism practical, but the ideas behind it (can't trust outsiders, follow the strong leader) are very very old.
My argument revolves around practicality. There are a lot of ideas that occurred to people long before anyone could make use of it:

"Ships and sails proper for the heavenly air should be fashioned..."
-Johannes Kepler

Amusing in the context of solar sails, but Kepler was so distant from the reality of space flight that he can't be credited with inventing it, only with dreaming about it. Likewise, Plato's Republic was a long, long way from what we now call fascism, which is one of the reasons it never existed in real life and fascism did.

(On a side note, what Plato actually thought of the state he described in the Republic is a complicated question I'm not enough of a classical scholar to answer...)

If you distill any political idea down to things simple enough that a caveman could understand it, you will probably find people talking about those ideas all the way back to the days of cavemen. By your argument, universal civil rights are "old" because "everybody should get a fair deal" isn't a new idea.


Making totalitarianism work, as something distinct from a Spartan-style slaveholding warrior-aristocracy which isn't the same thing at all, took a lot of tools and resources and ideas that are characteristically modern... just as making helicopters work did. Helicopters aren't "old" just because Leonardo da Vinci dreamed of building one.
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

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I'm sympathetic to the idea that in the rush towards modernity we've taken a few wrong turns, forgotten a few things it would have been better to remember. The general drive of society towards progress, starting from the Enlightenment, has always had its perversions. We don't have to work very hard to find examples of "modernity gone wrong," ideologies which are self-consciously modern and which emerge out of the political discourse of the modern era, but which can have brutal, horrible consequences for the people living under them. There's fascism, the violent and oppressive forms of communism*, and plenty of others.
To me, this seems to be suggesting that fascism is a wholly modern, post-enlightenment idea (also communism ... again, depending on how precisely you define these terms, there have always been some socialists and communists knocking around). Maybe modern technology makes fascism possible, but I'm not sure. Please define what you mean by fascism in this context.
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

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Simon_Jester wrote:We may find that the standard of living, distinct from matters like civil rights and urban planning, declines toward the conditions people lived in in 1975 or 1955- with more advanced gadgets, yes, but more crowded housing and more expensive staples.
As someone who actually remembers 1975, I don't find that notion as intolerable as you seem to be implying.

It has become more crowded now, though - there were "only" 215,000,000 people in the US in 1975, half again that many now. The housing actually wasn't any more crowded, and we didn't have McMansions. No, the problem is that we might have a 1975 standard of living but twice as many people in the same space. That's really where the crowding comes in further into this century.
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If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

Post by Simon_Jester »

evilsoup wrote:To me, this seems to be suggesting that fascism is a wholly modern, post-enlightenment idea (also communism ... again, depending on how precisely you define these terms, there have always been some socialists and communists knocking around). Maybe modern technology makes fascism possible, but I'm not sure. Please define what you mean by fascism in this context.
Time prevents me from getting back to you at length until later tonight, but as a short answer:

Authoritarianism is not at all new; as far as I know it predates recorded history.

Socialism, in the sense that society should be organized to serve the public interest, is arguably not new- although I'm having a hard time thinking of examples of proto-socialism on a large scale, as opposed to the tribal quasi-communism that exists in small communities, before the Industrial Revolution

Communism, a particular subspecies of socialism, is definitely post-Enlightenment and new- look at the history of communist philosophy and it is, by golly, directly descended from the Enlightenment. Violent, revolutionary communism with vanguard parties and the other trappings of the 20th century communist states is newer still- it's not even Marxism, it's Marxism-Leninism or Maoism. The fact that all those names in the 'isms' are from the 1800s or later should tip you off.

Fascism is a particular brand of authoritarianism, distinguished by a number of traits I'll go into in more depth when I have more than ten minutes to work on this. Many of those traits did not or could not emerge in a mature form until fairly recently. While authoritarianism is old, not all fascism is authoritarian.
Broomstick wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:We may find that the standard of living, distinct from matters like civil rights and urban planning, declines toward the conditions people lived in in 1975 or 1955- with more advanced gadgets, yes, but more crowded housing and more expensive staples.
As someone who actually remembers 1975, I don't find that notion as intolerable as you seem to be implying.
I don't find it as intolerable as I seem to be imiplying either. Check your implication-detector; I am not a representative sample of the whipper-snapper population.

I don't like it, mind you, but it's not like I'm going to jump off a cliff rather than deal with it.
It has become more crowded now, though - there were "only" 215,000,000 people in the US in 1975, half again that many now. The housing actually wasn't any more crowded, and we didn't have McMansions. No, the problem is that we might have a 1975 standard of living but twice as many people in the same space. That's really where the crowding comes in further into this century.
Ah, now that's a good way of pointing out the issue. Although we'd probably get much higher functional density if old suburbs relatively near to city centers started giving way to apartment buildings.
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

Post by Broomstick »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Broomstick wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:We may find that the standard of living, distinct from matters like civil rights and urban planning, declines toward the conditions people lived in in 1975 or 1955- with more advanced gadgets, yes, but more crowded housing and more expensive staples.
As someone who actually remembers 1975, I don't find that notion as intolerable as you seem to be implying.
I don't find it as intolerable as I seem to be imiplying either. Check your implication-detector; I am not a representative sample of the whipper-snapper population.

I don't like it, mind you, but it's not like I'm going to jump off a cliff rather than deal with it.
:lol:

I'm not a representative sample of the Old Fogey generation, either. As I never acquired certain "modern" conveniences I don't miss them. I never had a garbage disposal in the sink since I moved out of mom and dad's house, never had a dishwasher, didn't even have a color TV or microwave until 1988...

If we can keep computers and the internet I'd be content to let a lot of other things slide back to the 1970's as far as material goods go. It wasn't that bad a time, actually. Society had made some significant improvements, we weren't actively at war with anyone (though still staring down the USSR), the environment was being cleaned up (the air was already notably improved over the 1960's and fewer rivers were on fire), and the Arab Oil Embargo had made "conservation" a household word, which in the long run wasn't a bad thing. We were pretty sure (though not positive) smallpox was extinct, and no one knew about HIV yet.
It has become more crowded now, though - there were "only" 215,000,000 people in the US in 1975, half again that many now. The housing actually wasn't any more crowded, and we didn't have McMansions. No, the problem is that we might have a 1975 standard of living but twice as many people in the same space. That's really where the crowding comes in further into this century.
Ah, now that's a good way of pointing out the issue. Although we'd probably get much higher functional density if old suburbs relatively near to city centers started giving way to apartment buildings.
The old suburbs aren't that problematic - they had smaller homes on smaller lots, sidewalks for walking/biking/skating, and not a lot of space for vehicles which tends to limit the number of same. It's the newer suburbs with sprawling mansions on little mini-estates with multi-car garages that are the worst offenders, and I'd like to see them plowed under first.

And "functional density" isn't necessarily better. Public housing high rises were plenty dense, and even had substantial green spaces. They still degenerated into cesspits. Funny, though - wealthy high rises can pack people in even tighter and still remain decent. It seems poor people do better with a little more physical space. No, what we need to do is somehow make uber-dense urban living trendy and high status so people will WANT to emulate it.
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If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

Post by Simon_Jester »

Broomstick wrote:The old suburbs aren't that problematic - they had smaller homes on smaller lots, sidewalks for walking/biking/skating, and not a lot of space for vehicles which tends to limit the number of same. It's the newer suburbs with sprawling mansions on little mini-estates with multi-car garages that are the worst offenders, and I'd like to see them plowed under first.
I was just writing those off- they're going to die anyway as gas prices go up and relative per capita income goes down. The people who live there are going to move into the territory now occupied by the old suburbs... which means, more or less by default, higher density and thus more apartment buildings.

Which doesn't necessarily mean high-rise apartments, either- it can easily mean two to three story buildings that just use the space more efficiently and don't give as many square feet per person as a suburban home.

And, as promised...
Simon_Jester wrote:
evilsoup wrote:To me, this seems to be suggesting that fascism is a wholly modern, post-enlightenment idea (also communism ... again, depending on how precisely you define these terms, there have always been some socialists and communists knocking around). Maybe modern technology makes fascism possible, but I'm not sure. Please define what you mean by fascism in this context.
Time prevents me from getting back to you at length until later tonight, but as a short answer:

Authoritarianism is not at all new; as far as I know it predates recorded history.

Socialism, in the sense that society should be organized to serve the public interest, is arguably not new- although I'm having a hard time thinking of examples of proto-socialism on a large scale, as opposed to the tribal quasi-communism that exists in small communities, before the Industrial Revolution

Communism, a particular subspecies of socialism, is definitely post-Enlightenment and new- look at the history of communist philosophy and it is, by golly, directly descended from the Enlightenment. Violent, revolutionary communism with vanguard parties and the other trappings of the 20th century communist states is newer still- it's not even Marxism, it's Marxism-Leninism or Maoism. The fact that all those names in the 'isms' are from the 1800s or later should tip you off.

Fascism is a particular brand of authoritarianism, distinguished by a number of traits I'll go into in more depth when I have more than ten minutes to work on this. Many of those traits did not or could not emerge in a mature form until fairly recently. While authoritarianism is old, not all fascism is authoritarian.
The underlined passage at the end was my brain hiccuping- that should read "not all authoritarianism is fascist."

Beyond that, to define my terms, fascism is a type of authoritarianism where the power of the leader and the party machine which supports him flows from "The People." But "The People" is conceived in a nationalist, racist, mystical sense of the word; it does not refer to any specific person but to the collective aspirations of the spirit of the race. A fascist does not need to carry out a poll to know that The People demand war, and if the irony of that isn't lost on you, it shows that you are sane.

Tactically, fascism makes heavy use of manipulation and propaganda, a secret police force to ensure ideological purity, a powerful conscript military, and other tactics to turn the country into a garrison state, with all aspects of the economy and cultural life aimed at creating a politically unified People who will obey the leader and party unthinkingly and enforce the will of The People by force.

Alliances with powerful corporate, religious, or aristocratic blocs in society are common among fascists, but this is a side-trait. Fascists do it because they need those tools to manipulate the economy and culture, not because they prefer to, or because they feel beholden to hereditary nobles, corporate executives, or religious leaders.

What else can we look to, for commentary on fascism and insight into its thought processes?

Let us refer to Umberto Eco's characterization of fascism; Eco was born in a fascist country, lived among people with intimate memories of adult life in a fascist regime, and is himself an intellectual of no small caliber. He lists fourteen traits of the "eternal fascist," the archetypal specimen of the breed. Let me first list them, then describe my views on why fascism, as distinct from authoritarianism, is new, a perversion of modern ideas rather than a throwback to ancient ones. Anything directly quoted from Eco is in quotation marks.

1) The cult of tradition- not the tradition itself, but the idea that all wisdom comes from the past and that this wisdom can be mixed and matched arbitrarily even when different bits of it are mutually exclusive. This is where you get things like Hitler mixing Roman salutes, dreams of a pseudo-Viking racial past, and orientalist mysticism.

2) The reaction against modernism- fascism is strongly technophilic, but at the same time rejects modern values.

3) The cult of action for action's sake- "Thinking is a form of emasculation," intellectuals are inherently untrustworthy, and any ideal of high 'culture' is a sign that you should reach for your Browning. Conversely, it's inherently right to get people busy doing labor, physical activities, or military activities.

4) The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism.- "In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason."

5) Besides, disagreement is a sign of diversity.- Fascism is opposed to all forms of diversity, and is driven by the fear of difference and the desire to remake society into a place where the Other is removed.

6) Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration.- "That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups."

7) To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country.- Fascism finds its roots in nationalism, and defines the nation in terms of its enemies, even if it must fabricate those enemies' existence from scratch. It encourages its people to feel besieged by foreign conspiracies.

8 ) The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies.- Fascism is based on appeal to the masses. "When I [Eco] was a boy [in fascist Italy] I was taught to think of Englishmen as the five-meal people. They ate more frequently than the poor but sober Italians. Jews are rich and help each other through a secret web of mutual assistance. However, the followers of Ur-Fascism must also be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak. Fascist governments are condemned to lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively evaluating the force of the enemy."

9) For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.- "Thus pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. It is bad because life is permanent warfare. This, however, brings about an Armageddon complex."

10) Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology, insofar as it is fundamentally aristocratic, and aristocratic and militaristic elitism cruelly implies contempt for the weak.- "Ur-Fascism can only advocate a popular elitism. Every citizen belongs to the best people in the world, the members or the party are the best among the citizens, every citizen can (or ought to) become a member of the party..." and so, the fascist party rules in the name of The People, while as a rule holding them in contempt and manipulating them through propaganda.

11) In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero.- Heroic death is embraced as the lot of the party man, the proper "reward for a heroic life."

12) Since both permanent war and heroism are difficult games to play, the Ur-Fascist transfers his will to power to sexual matters.- Machismo runs wild, although the sex drive can be sublimated back into a drive to martial success as soon as war breaks out, which the fascist is likely to embrace eagerly.

13) Ur-Fascism is based upon a selective populism, a qualitative populism, one might say.- "In a democracy, the citizens have individual rights, but the citizens in their entirety have a political impact only from a quantitative point of view -- one follows the decisions of the majority. For Ur-Fascism, however, individuals as individuals have no rights, and the People is conceived as a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the Common Will. Since no large quantity of human beings can have a common will, the Leader pretends to be their interpreter. Having lost their power of delegation, citizens do not act; they are only called on to play the role of the People. Thus the People is only a theatrical fiction."

14) 14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak.- "Newspeak was invented by Orwell, in Nineteen Eighty-Four, as the official language of what he called Ingsoc, English Socialism. But elements of Ur-Fascism are common to different forms of dictatorship. All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning."

Now, what am I to make of all this?

First off, we do see that fascism appeals to tradition. I make no bones about that- I admit it and embrace the fact, because it's true. My argument is that while fascism appeals to tradition, it is not traditional in character. It is revolutionary. Fascists will try to co-opt and supersede any 'traditional' centers of power in their society, given time; we can see this plainly enough in Nazi Germany.

This is where (1) comes in. Fascist society is not usually 'traditional' for the country the fascists take over, but it has a cult of tradition. Tradition is revered, but not for its own sake; value attaches to it because it provides a founding myth for the idea of the race. This is why Mussolini kept invoking the legacy of Rome but would never have considered instituting something like the Plebeian tribunes of the Roman republic as part of his own government, or why Hitler and the Nazis were obsessed with 'Aryan' racial identity and appearance-based racism and eugenics.

In many cases, the 'traditions' a fascist wishes to uphold are fabrications, created to justify the onset of fascism. I do not consider this to be traditionalist. It's not entirely new, either, but the idea of radically re-imagining your society's traditions as part of a general rewriting of the past and remaking of the future, as fascists do, isn't something you can easily find in the pre-modern past.


Then we look at (2) through (6)- the reaction against modernism, its implications, and its basis. Again, what are we to make of this? Is this a sign that the fascists are merely the old school conservatives, rebelling once again against the way the world is changing?

I disagree. I don't think fascism represents a bypassed tradition. I think it's something that emerges like a callus where people's lives chafe against modernity, but which cannot exist without modernity any more than calluses can exist without pressure. I'm not a great dialectician, but the best way I can think of to put it is that fascism is the antithesis of modernity, something that can only exist in response to the modern world as we know it.

So far as I know, there weren't any recognizably fascist regimes before the Enlightenment concept of individual rights and universal democracy, before the Industrial Revolution and the rise of the middle class, and the economic turmoil that came with those things, before the rise of extensive, constant international commerce that brings nations of millions into constant contact and rivalry. Without those things to react against, to define itself in opposition to, could fascism exist at all? I'm skeptical.

There were tyrants in those days, often brutal ones, but the tyrants didn't use the rhetoric and techniques of mass action to mobilize entire ethnic groups into giant armed camps that would try and conquer the world for the greater glory of the Race.


(7) through (14) address another point that is, to me, very new in 'modern' authoritarianism: the use of propaganda. Ancient rulers might make up boastful lies about their actions, claim to be representatives of the gods and so on, but they didn't try to make up productions and presentations and constantly beam them into the minds of every citizen of the state. Their legitimacy was a top-down thing, established by force and the will of the gods, not by a claim to be doing The People's will.

Whereas in fascism, the effort to re-educate and persuade the public, and to force the public to act as if they're persuaded, is never-ending. I would argue that this is characteristically modern- like most modern social organizations, fascism's power hinges on the ability to make the people care, rather than leaving them behind as uninvolved peasants while the nobles engage in affairs of state.
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

Post by K. A. Pital »

Uh... isn't fascism best described as the last attempt of blending traditionalism with the technocratic part of what we call "the modern"? An unsuccessful attempt in the end, but still. One thing is missing from Eco's description of fascism - relentless hatred of materialism as a concept (just reading "Mein Kampf" or some of Mussolini's definitive speeches is enough to understand that).

Fascism is indeed more traditionalist than modern. Fascism is a rejection of the modern, it only picks the technocratic and industrialist ideas (reluctantly!), but immediately makes the caveat that "soul and blood" mean more than any material circumstances. It does not matter how strong your industry is or how powerful your weapons; it is the ideal and the immaterial which defines everything. Fascism is traditionalist idealism driven to the extremes. It is not the being which defines the mind but vice-versa, and in this core concept fascism says that the economic triumphs, etc. do not stem from material conditions but rather from the "spirit", the immaterial, the ideals. It is not compatible with the modern - it simply utilizes the technical means given by the modern, but at the same time deeply deplores them and says they are unimportant material objects. Tradition, "destiny", nationality, race etc. - the maxims of the old days - are to be restored to their dominating position. But how can they be restored if they never dominated anything?

It is no wonder that the fathers of fascism - Mussolini and Hitler - looked with admiration on the British Empire and said that the fascist state should emulate it. It should reach material prosperity by crushing competitors in constant warfare (as they postulated Britain always did), not via "peaceful economic competition", it should be relentlessly racist (as the British Empire undeniably was). So fascism had a past example which it aspired to.

So fascism the ideology could not exist before the modern, as it defined itself as the rejection of modern, but what fascism sought to create was something from the Xprior centuries (except with modern means). That is the key thing. Fascists (if they won all over) could probably describe the British Empire and many other XVIII-XIX century Empires as precursors to their fascist states, as the actual "desireable state" to which fascist nations were restored through popular will.

Indeed, that is what happened to Mussolini. He reached so far back in the archaic that he said Italy is the Roman Empire's successor.
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

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That is actually not as archaic or ancient as one would think, considering that Napoleon did the same, as did the Holy Roman Empire (finished 1806) etc. Rome always was an important part in Imperial ideology (and Italian unification ideology) and calling back to it was just standard in these days. Heck, even the British empire did the same, though to a lesser degree.
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

Post by K. A. Pital »

Archaic references were not integral to many other nations (in fact, some wholly rejected their imperial past), but for fascism they were quite integral. The British Empire "did the same" and became a role model for fascists of all stripes. The waterfalls of imperial admiration speeches flooded the books written by fascist ideology adherents. Indeed, at a time when absolutism and autocracy were at their last dying breath, when the last absolute monarchy ended with the execution of the former dethroned monarch, the fascists had no option but to cling to empire.

Fascism was ultimately a look to the past, a desire to recreate the past in the future, by rejecting the "materialistic" ideologies that were born out of the industrial revolution and combining industrial might with traditionalist and racist-imperialist doctrines. Indeed, fascism went as far in its idealism that it declared the state "not a mere economic machine", but (as it was seen during the pre-industrial period) an embodiment of the "national spirit".
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

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Stas Bush wrote:Archaic references were not integral to many other nations (in fact, some wholly rejected their imperial past), but for fascism they were quite integral. The British Empire "did the same" and became a role model for fascists of all stripes. The waterfalls of imperial admiration speeches flooded the books written by fascist ideology adherents. Indeed, at a time when absolutism and autocracy were at their last dying breath, when the last absolute monarchy ended with the execution of the former dethroned monarch, the fascists had no option but to cling to empire.

Fascism was ultimately a look to the past, a desire to recreate the past in the future, by rejecting the "materialistic" ideologies that were born out of the industrial revolution and combining industrial might with traditionalist and racist-imperialist doctrines. Indeed, fascism went as far in its idealism that it declared the state "not a mere economic machine", but (as it was seen during the pre-industrial period) an embodiment of the "national spirit".
I wasn't disagreeing with you, just pointing out that all nations, fascist or not, tried to paint themselves as heirs to Rome or continuing the ancient Roman and Greek traditions. Even nations that never were Roman did that, see for example Prussia. Antiquity was just a popular fad there.
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

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Op-ed piece from the New York Times
The Poor, the Near Poor and You
What is it like to be poor? Thankfully, most Americans do not know, at least not firsthand. And times are tough for the middle class. But everyone needs to recognize a chilling reality: One in three Americans — 100 million people — is either poor or perilously close to it.

The Times’s Jason DeParle, Robert Gebeloff and Sabrina Tavernise reported recently on Census data showing that 49.1 million Americans are below the poverty line — in general, $24,343 for a family of four. An additional 51 million are in the next category, which they termed “near poor” — with incomes less than 50 percent above the poverty line.

As for all of that inspirational, up-by-their-bootstrap talk you hear on the Republican campaign trail, over half of the near poor in the new tally actually fell into that group from higher income levels as their resources were sapped by medical expenses, taxes, work-related costs and other unavoidable outlays.

The worst downturn since the Great Depression is only part of the problem. Before that, living standards were already being eroded by stagnating wages and tax and economic policies that favored the wealthy.

Conservative politicians and analysts are spouting their usual denial. Gov. Rick Perry and Representative Michele Bachmann have called for taxing the poor and near poor more heavily, on the false grounds that they have been getting a free ride. In fact, low-income workers do pay up, if not in federal income taxes, then in payroll taxes and state and local taxes.

Asked about the new census data, Robert Rector, an analyst at the conservative Heritage Foundation told The Times that the “emotionally charged terms ‘poor’ or ‘near poor’ clearly suggest to most people a level of material hardship that doesn’t exist.” Heritage has its own, very different ranking system, based on households’ “amenities.” According to that, the typical poor household has roughly 14 of 30 amenities. In other words, how hard can things be if you have a refrigerator, air-conditioner, coffee maker, cellphone, and other stuff?

The rankings ignore the fact that many of these are requisites of modern life and that things increasingly out of reach for the poor and near poor — education, health care, child care, housing and utilities — are the true determinants of a good, upwardly mobile life.

Government surveys analyzed by the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities indicate that in 2010, just over half of the country’s nearly 17 million poor children, lived in households that reported at least one of four major hardships: hunger, overcrowding, failure to pay the rent or mortgage on time or failure to seek needed medical care. A good education is also increasingly out of reach. A study by Martha Bailey, an economics professor at the University of Michigan, showed that the difference in college-graduation rates between the rich and poor has widened by more than 50 percent since the 1990s.

There is also a growing out-of-sight-out-of-mind problem. A study, by Sean Reardon, a sociologist at Stanford, shows that Americans are increasingly living in areas that are either poor or affluent. The isolation of the prosperous, he said, threatens their support for public schools, parks, mass transit and other investments that benefit broader society.

The poor do without and the near poor, at best, live from paycheck to paycheck. Most Americans don’t know what that is like, but unless the nation reverses direction, more are going to find out.
I think part of what angers me is the attitude by some conservatives that if you aren't actively starving, if you have some particular item, such as a cellphone, you aren't really poor. You know what? There are people living in mud huts with thatch roofs in Africa with dirt floors and not even a latrine who own cellphones. Cellphones aren't that expensive if you go for either used or very basic model, and they're incredibly useful. That's why even extremely poor people can be found with them all over the world. It's a bogus criteria.

Being unable to get an education for yourself or your children, being unable to obtain health care, being just a sneeze away from homelessness - that's poverty in today's world. Having a bunch of asshole political candidates then imply your poverty (or near poverty) is somehow a moral and personal failing, then threatening to tax you because, somehow, you're a freeloader on society, is just a heap of salt rubbed vigorously into the wound.
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

Post by K. A. Pital »

"Telecoms thriving in lawless Somalia", you know. Just to illustrate the point.
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I guess by Heritage logic these guys are not having it that rough. :lol:
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

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And look at the bling on them! If they can afford that much jewelry they can't be poor, right?
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

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Cell phones have actually become the most economically sensible option, far more than landlines nowadays. And of course the infrastructure is also damn easy to deploy even in total crapholes.

But the real insidious part of the Heritage Foundation's way of measuring prosperity lies elsewhere: namely, in the fact that amenities are long-term items, and can be bought on credit.

Basically: if you lose your job, you can instantly go from a decent income to zero income, yet you retain all your "amenities", such as dishwashers and computers because, duh, they don't go poof when you stop earning money. If the situation persists, you will still most likely retain those: selling a dishwasher is a last-resort action, since say a dishwasher saves energy and water and time.

But, according to the Heritage Foundation, someone earning 0 dollars per year and living entirely on savings and without any prospects of finding a job is not really poor, because he still has the household items they measure. Even if those items have been bought ten years ago in better times, or are all bought with crappy high cost store loans.

This is a dishonest bullshit obfuscation tactic, nothing more.
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

Post by Akhlut »

There's also the matter that some of these items are dirt-cheap; microwaves are fairly cheap and represent an immense time savings for poor families, so of course they'll be purchased. And large appliances are often kept in place in rental apartments (things like refrigerators and stoves, and sometimes clothes washers, dryers, and dishwashers).

And, then there's the matter that people who work the lower levels of retail are generally poor or near poor (working part-time at just above minimum wage means poverty? who knew!); however, these people generally get employee discounts on merchandise from their own stores, and they sometimes also get holiday discounts on top of that, which would make some big-ticket non-perishable item an option (such as an HDTV, an XBox, or something similar).

This isn't even including purchase these things at thrift shops, trading for them, or the like.

Also, I really like the undercurrent idea that poor people who use any amount of their money on luxury items that are just for pleasure (like video game consoles, computers, or the like) are moral failures because they want to do fun things from time to time.
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

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Akhlut wrote: Also, I really like the undercurrent idea that poor people who use any amount of their money on luxury items that are just for pleasure (like video game consoles, computers, or the like) are moral failures because they want to do fun things from time to time.
Yes ; That is incredibly disgusting for me as well. Heaven forbid a poor person would like to participate in culture from time to time: they should work and save every single penny, and not think about anything else than work work and more work, like good peons.

It's one thing, and sad, when they are forced to do so by circumstance (there ARE people who simply cannot afford to go to the movies, at all, period), but quite another when you can afford it, want to relax and take your mind off your miserable life and get told you're a horrible person and it's all your fault because HOLY SHIT YOU RENTED A MOVIE YOU DIRTBAG NO WONDER YOU'RE POOR!
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

Post by K. A. Pital »

When I was poor (earning round two hundred euros/month for teh family which is below the so-called life minimum BTW) I was still going to the movies, though it was really cringeworthy - I had to save every little penny to buy a ticket once a month. I also had a microwave which costed half my wage (was crappy and broke down after a year of use). And of course I had a mobile phone. I guess until I'm basically starving, I'm not counted as poor.
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

Post by Simon_Jester »

Stas Bush wrote:Uh... isn't fascism best described as the last attempt of blending traditionalism with the technocratic part of what we call "the modern"? An unsuccessful attempt in the end, but still. One thing is missing from Eco's description of fascism - relentless hatred of materialism as a concept (just reading "Mein Kampf" or some of Mussolini's definitive speeches is enough to understand that).

Fascism is indeed more traditionalist than modern. Fascism is a rejection of the modern, it only picks the technocratic and industrialist ideas (reluctantly!), but immediately makes the caveat that "soul and blood" mean more than any material circumstances. It does not matter how strong your industry is or how powerful your weapons; it is the ideal and the immaterial which defines everything. Fascism is traditionalist idealism driven to the extremes...
In my opinion, though, this is... it's traditionalism without being traditional. Fascists appeal to tradition, they make a fetish of it, they don't really practice it. Saying "I value the traditions of my race" is not the same as actually living by them.

Fascists tend to refer to a very selective version of their nation's past, one which often puts them at odds with intellectually honest conservatives- the legacy of Rome becomes good when it involves conquering things, but bad when it refers back to proto-democratic traditions like the plebeian tribunes (who might warm even your revolutionist heart, Stas). This was because they were appealing to tradition-as-propaganda: trying to convince conservatives in their society that they are going back to a golden past, when in reality they are remaking society in ways that people from that past would hardly recognize.

This isn't unique to fascism, by the way; Islamic fanatics do the same thing by presenting their new religious ideas as a pure, 'original' form of Islam regardless of whether it closely resembles the original. Indeed, it's common to a lot of radical-conservative movements: the oxymoron is there because while the movement desires radical change making use of new techniques of mass mobilization and technology, it does so under the pretense of wanting a world very different from the one it's trying to create.


Short form: fascists claim to be traditionalists, but I think they're lying, because the ways they change society look to me like an alternative form of 'modernity.' A cruel, oppressive, incredibly undesirable modernity, but still something new and not something old.
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

Post by Keevan_Colton »

What exactly would qualify as real traditionalism then Simon in your assessment?

The past is something to be surpassed, no aspired to. There is no awesome golden age that we should seek to return to...

Slavery, segregation, child prostitution, starvation, disenfranchisement, dysentery, extreme poverty and illness...where exactly are the high points in the last several hundred years to aspire to? All those things are part and parcel of the past, and any attempt to glorify some part of the past as something to aspire to will necessarily be an alternative form of modernity if it is not to be a return to those past atrocities.

So, what makes fascists not true scotsmen when it comes to traditionalism?

A fun little ditty on this very topic is Momus song "Simple Men"
The simple men live the simple life in big log cabins
They're best of friends with a simpleton and his horse named Dobbins
Their yards resound with the simple sound of blackbirds and robins
And their wives make simple samplers with thimbles and bobbins

We envy them, the simple men
The simple men, we envy them
We envy them, the simple men
We envy the simple men

We envy them, the simple men
The simple men, we envy them

They're terribly superstitious, fear the ghost and the gollum
They sit in a chair in the mountain air and breathe in the pollen
Their tweeds and plaids are homespun adorned with a sporran
They're always at war with the valley folk because they are foreign

We envy them, the simple men
The simple men, we envy them
We envy them, the simple men
We envy the simple men

We envy them, the simple men
The simple men, we envy them

Funny how it seems the more that we evolve
The more the basic problems of our lives get solved
The more we yearn for harder, simpler times back when
We envy them, the simple men

Their pigs have lice and their rats have mice and their dogs have rabies
They dig in the muck to make graves they mark with the names of their babies
They beat their wives, it serves them right, it's in Deuteronomy
And for their simple daughters they reserve clitorectomy

We envy them, the simple men
The simple men, we envy them
We envy them, the simple men
We envy the simple men

We envy them, the simple men
The simple men, we envy them

Funny how the symbols of humanity
Turn out to be the images of brutality
Projecting soul on the soulless again
We envy them, the simple men
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Re: 1 in 3 Americans poor or near poor

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Keevan_Colton wrote:What exactly would qualify as real traditionalism then Simon in your assessment?
Real traditionalism is when you want to keep doing what you've been doing. That can be bad ("we have a tradition of hitting people over the head with rocks for saying bad words") or good ("we have a tradition of people having a right to privacy"). Whether something is traditional has nothing to do with whether it's a good thing or a bad thing. It doesn't make it good, it doesn't make it bad, it just makes it something people have been doing for a while.

Fascists, as a rule, do not want to make society keep doing what it's been doing. They want to make new, different things happen. They use techniques that are new to make this happen- mass propaganda, secret police forces, these are among the fruits of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. They are rotten fruits, bad things, where other fruits of those centuries are not rotten.

But I don't think it serves any useful purpose to pretend that every bad thing must be old, while every new thing must be good.
The past is something to be surpassed, no aspired to. There is no awesome golden age that we should seek to return to...
Who said anything about "aspired to?" My point is very simple: the past is the past, and the future is the future, and people who say they want to bring the past back may be lying. That is not a moral judgment. That is not me saying "oh, well it would be better if they did want to bring back the past!" That is me saying "they're not, and we shouldn't pretend they are just because it lets us pigeonhole all bad things in the "old" box and put only the good things in the "new" box.

Politics isn't linear. There are things from our past that we should all be glad to be rid of- lots of them, too many to count. There are a few things from our past that we might be better off hanging on to. There are many things in our present and future that we should be glad to look forward to having from now on... and there are things that might happen in our future that we can do without.

Remember Brave New World? 1984? All the other dystopias of fiction? Those are examples of the future gone wrong. My argument is that fascism fits in better as the party of "achieve a future dystopia" than it does as the party of "back to the past," because no point in the past contains a world like the one the fascists want.
So, what makes fascists not true scotsmen when it comes to traditionalism?
They make a fetish out of single-ethnicity nation-states (a modern construct), they despise old aristocrat-classes if the aristocrats get in their way, they plaster mass propaganda all over everything in a way that was utterly impossible in "traditional" society...

Put simply, they are an exercise in anachronism. They are no more 'traditional' than having a guy dressed up as Henry VIII walking around talking on his iPhone would be.

There are people who are more traditionalist than this- most of them want to, at most, stay with the recent past. That does not make them good, or better than anyone in particular. It just means that they actually think society would be better off if we all lived the way we did in the 1970s, or the 1950s, or whatever. Fascists do not show many signs of believing this- what they say for public consumption cannot be taken as an accurate reflection of their beliefs, because fascists lie and propagandize to the masses at the drop of a hat.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
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