US offers to help Malaysia draft civil liberty laws

[PainRack]

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?fi ... sec=nation

Tuesday September 20, 2011
US offers to help Malaysia draft new security laws


IPOH: The United States is willing to assist Malaysia in drafting new laws to replace the Internal Security Act (ISA) and other preventive laws, US ambassador to Malaysia Paul W. Jones said.

“We are more than happy to share our experiences but it is really up to Malaysia to pass laws that encompass civil liberty in the country.

“On our part, we do have some expertise in this area.

“For instance, we had a very healthy debate about how to counter terrorism while maintaining civil liberty,” he told reporters after a courtesy call on Perak Mentri Besar Datuk Seri Dr Zambry Abdul Kadir at his office here yesterday.

Jones said the United States was very encouraged with the announcement to abolish the ISA by Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak recently.

He said the US Government was now looking to see how Malaysia would move ahead on the issue.

“I think around the world that (expanding civil liberty) is what the people are interested in as well as ensuring national security is well-protected.

“This is the challenge for every country but clearly Malaysia has demonstrated its commitment to move forward and extend civil liberty in the country,” he said.

During his recent Malaysia Day address, Najib announced the Government’s decision to lift the Emergency Proclamations and abolish the ISA and several other archaic laws.

Home Minister Datuk Seri Hishammuddin Tun Hussein said new laws to replace the ISA would be modelled after the Patriot’s Act in the United States, the Anti-Terrorism Act in Britain and Australia’s laws on terrorism

This is relatively old news but I would like to comment on the absurdity of having the US to help draft new civil liberty laws.

Seriously, for a country that's still mired in Guantanmo bay and Abu Grahib scandals.... you would had expected this to be the OTHER way around. Malaysia teaching the US how to lock up detainees so that any resulting scandal don't leak out and hurt the government.

Hyperbole aside, the argument that the US has more experience in combating terrorism while maintaining civil liberties has to be laughable. The US has dramatically curbed civil liberties post 9/11 and the US Patriot Act quoted gives the US government considerable powers to invade privacy and regulate finanicial transactions. Some of those widespread powers aren't available to the Malaysian government.

On the other hand, Malaysia has 6 decades of combating an insurgency and utilising her security powers against opponents of the government, while maintaining a decent arena for political debate. Its politicised, the Anwar fiasco throws into doubt the appropiateness of the Malaysian response, but again, the Malaysians have had more expertise in actually juggling civil liberties with security powers. Most of it is bad, but the idea of the US having anything to teach in this arena is laughable. The Malaysians already have enough experience on what doesn't work, what's bad, and what might work.

[Thanas]

Comedy news of the week right here. What is next, Russia giving advice in how to combat corruption? China to give advice on how to hold fair elections?

[Simon_Jester]

My understanding is that it's not that there's a problem with the basic corpus of US civil liberties laws as that these laws are effectively ignored whenever the word "terrorist" is spoken. Whether the laws as written would work if enforced is a separate question from whether they are enforced, so long as they can be enforced.

I don't know what the civil liberties situation in Malaysia is. When it comes to things like freedom of speech for all I know they might actually be better off emulating the US; the US does not have the most oppressive legal code on Earth, after all.

[The Romulan Republic]

My understanding is that it's not that there's a problem with the basic corpus of US civil liberties laws as that these laws are effectively ignored whenever the word "terrorist" is spoken. Whether the laws as written would work if enforced is a separate question from whether they are enforced, so long as they can be enforced.

I don't know what the civil liberties situation in Malaysia is. When it comes to things like freedom of speech for all I know they might actually be better off emulating the US; the US does not have the most oppressive legal code on Earth, after all.

This is probably more or less right. If the US actually followed its own Constitution it would probably be much closer to the ideal when it comes to civil liberties.

[Norseman]

This is probably more or less right. If the US actually followed its own Constitution it would probably be much closer to the ideal when it comes to civil liberties.

ARTICLE 124. In order to ensure to citizens freedom of conscience, the church in the U.S.S.R. is separated from the state, and the school from the church. Freedom of religious worship and freedom of antireligious propaganda is recognized for all citizens.

ARTICLE 125. In conformity with the interests of the working people, and in order to strengthen the socialist system, the citizens of the U.S.S.R. are guaranteed by law:

freedom of speech;
freedom of the press;
freedom of assembly, including the holding of mass meetings;
reedom of street processions and demonstrations.

These civil rights are ensured by placing at the disposal of the working people and their organizations printing presses, stocks of paper, public buildings, the streets, communications facilities and other material requisites for the exercise of these rights.

ARTICLE 126. In conformity with the interests of the working people, and in order to develop the organizational initiative and political activity of the masses of the people, citizens of the U.S.S.R. are ensured the right to unite in public organizations--trade unions, cooperative associations, youth organizations,' sport and defense organizations, cultural, technical and scientific societies; and the most active and politically most conscious citizens in the ranks of the working class and other sections of the working people unite in the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (Bolsheviks), which is the vanguard of the working people in their struggle to strengthen and develop the socialist system and is the leading core of all organizations of the working people, both public and state.

ARTICLE 127. Citizens of the U.S.S.R. are guaranteed inviolability of the person. No person may be placed under arrest except by decision of a court or with the sanction of a procurator.

ARTICLE 128. The inviolability of the homes of citizens and privacy of correspondence are protected by law.

ARTICLE 129. The U.S.S.R. affords the right of asylum to foreign citizens persecuted for defending the interests of the working people, or for their scientific activities, or for their struggle for national liberation.

[AniThyng]

Re: The state of civil liberties and freedom of speech in Malaysia

bbs.stardestroyer.net isn't blocked...yet And the biggest website blocked lately has been stuff related to torrents and piracy. No doubt partly due to pressure from the MPAA and RIAA and the like.

Re: Article

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

I find the US ideals admirable, I really do, but the reality is that having the USA assist us in drafting any internal security law is a good way to rile up the CIA conspiracy crowd, nevermind normal people who see the USA for waht it is: the world's most powerful purveyor of hypocrisy

[Simon_Jester]

Norseman, this is kind of related to my point: the best law and constitution in the world is completely useless if it isn't followed.

It doesn't matter if the Malaysians use the best examples in the world for civil liberties legislation if they don't seriously intend to honor the provisions of the law, or if the judiciary doesn't intend to protect those rights and keep them in force. But if they do intend to honor the provisions and will make sure their jurisprudence protects those rights in the long run, then quality of the laws on the books isn't going to change all that much no matter who they use as examples while writing their rules.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The odds of Malaysia going all the way in terms of electoral and civil liberties reform is as slim as Lee Kuan Yew kicking the bucket tomorrow.

[PainRack]

Comedy news of the week right here. What is next, Russia giving advice in how to combat corruption? China to give advice on how to hold fair elections?

Imagine the US teaching Britain how to fight Catholic terrorists in an urban environment.

That's the sheer level of stupidity involved here. Abu Grahib and Guantanmo is just comedy when compared to the fight that the Malaysians probably have more experience in juggling civil liberties vs security concerns than the US has. All bad, but at least, unlike the States, they already know how bad things are likely to go. Whereas the Americans has just renewed the Patriot Act without modifying any of its provisions.

Anybody want to go ask Anwar what that might lead to?

[PainRack]

My understanding is that it's not that there's a problem with the basic corpus of US civil liberties laws as that these laws are effectively ignored whenever the word "terrorist" is spoken. Whether the laws as written would work if enforced is a separate question from whether they are enforced, so long as they can be enforced.

I don't know what the civil liberties situation in Malaysia is. When it comes to things like freedom of speech for all I know they might actually be better off emulating the US; the US does not have the most oppressive legal code on Earth, after all.

Malaysia does have freedom of speech..... well, until it censored and shut down gutteruncensored because photos of the minister and his son drinking and whoring got online.

I note that they used equivalent arguments as Rick Santorum does now.

To put it simply, they will be better off emulating the US only in terms of following the DISTANT past. The "current" practices of the US government? Malaysia had already tred those grounds and is deciding to leave them, not venture further into the mess of unsanctioned government assasins. Oops, sorry, drone operated surgical strikes on terrorist targets.

FUCK. The Malaysian government at least dismantled THEIR concentration camps when they took over the government. The New Villages were either systematically dismantled or intergrated into new villages/towns with civil infrastructure. You guys are building a NEW concentration camp at Burham.

[PainRack]

I will like to point out that as of this moment, the ISA is arguably more liberal than the equivalent US policy.

Detention is reviewed on a yearly basis.

You can't detain a person for more than two years, unless his case is reviewed and found needful of future detention.

In theory, the detainee has the right to seek representation in a court of law. Something that isn't really exercised in practice, but its a right that they are supposed to have.

More important, detainees have the right to be informed of the specific charge and reasons on why they are detained, and for such a case to be reviewed administratively within 3 months, a right that's actually exercised, even though there are no provisions to ensure that the board is fair. And of course, decisions may be ignored. But they DO have such rights.


Guantanmo bay detainees in comparison are much worse off.

Just compare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raja_Petra_Kamarudin. He's still under political fire, but unlike Guantanmo, he received a hearing and was released within days. It took months for the American equivalent.

Seriously. It would be more appropiate if it was the Malaysian ambassador visiting President Obama and saying they would be willing to share their experiences and help the States juggle civil liberties with security concerns. Afterall, they have already process more than 12 thousand such arrests personally and detained such people, monitored them etc for over a decade at times. The US is only reaching its tenth year in learning how to detain such people. The Malaysians have DETAINED multiple people for a decade.

[AniThyng]

Well thank the British for that. The ISA is after all one of those colonial laws that was far too convenient to get rid off. Like the Sodomy ones. British inherited laws all.

But that being said it's somewhat misleading to suggest that Malaysian civil liberties are anywhere near as good that of the US's, just that they are no where near as bad as often portrayed.

As for Anwar, he has enough problems with being perceived as an American stooge as it is, I can't see anyone in the opposition endorsing this at all.

[PainRack]

Well thank the British for that. The ISA is after all one of those colonial laws that was far too convenient to get rid off. Like the Sodomy ones. British inherited laws all.

But that being said it's somewhat misleading to suggest that Malaysian civil liberties are anywhere near as good that of the US's, just that they are no where near as bad as often portrayed.

As for Anwar, he has enough problems with being perceived as an American stooge as it is, I can't see anyone in the opposition endorsing this at all.

I'm not suggesting that Malaysian civil liberties are as good as the US.

Rather, I'm highlighting the absurdity involved in the image of the States having anything to teach the Malaysians.

Unlike the Americans, the Malaysians already know the detrimental effects of policies that are now being enacted in the States and is moving away from them. The States is still going DEEPER.

Imagine Collin Ferrell telling Jack Nicholson that you should live a more sober life. Collin isn't as bad as Jack, but he still going off the board whereas Nicholson has already done it all.

[Simon_Jester]

Malaysia does have freedom of speech..... well, until it censored and shut down gutteruncensored because photos of the minister and his son drinking and whoring got online.

I note that they used equivalent arguments as Rick Santorum does now.

Yeah, but Santorum is probably going to lose his lawsuits- which is the point, really.

To put it simply, they will be better off emulating the US only in terms of following the DISTANT past. The "current" practices of the US government? Malaysia had already tred those grounds and is deciding to leave them, not venture further into the mess of unsanctioned government assasins. Oops, sorry, drone operated surgical strikes on terrorist targets.

I prefer to think of them as robot minions. It's more evil-overlordy.

I'm not supporting US policies on treatment of 'terrorist' accusees in the 'War on Terror' here. But there is a lot to civil rights other than that- treatment of people accused of perfectly mundane crimes in the mundane court system, the existence of free speech and a free press, and so on.

The US has a more or less viable set of laws on all those things, so it's hardly ridiculous for some American to offer advice on a foreign constitution. "I'd like to give you advice" is not the same sentence as "I am the best in the world, do exactly as I do."

Now, you reserve the right to tell the CIA to take its advice and shove it up its collective ass... but you'd have that anyway.

[PainRack]

I'm not supporting US policies on treatment of 'terrorist' accusees in the 'War on Terror' here. But there is a lot to civil rights other than that- treatment of people accused of perfectly mundane crimes in the mundane court system, the existence of free speech and a free press, and so on.

The US has a more or less viable set of laws on all those things, so it's hardly ridiculous for some American to offer advice on a foreign constitution. "I'd like to give you advice" is not the same sentence as "I am the best in the world, do exactly as I do."

While the revision of the ISA was done with an aim to increase civil liberties, along with reforms to electoral and other civil laws , the ISA itself refers to the power of the government to detain people without bringing them to trial.

There is literally no platform for the US to give advice on regarding this issue.

Experience? The US has ten years of learning how to do this. The Malaysians had detained detainees for ten years. Singapore, has detained detainees for twenty three years.
Potential abuses? In what sense? Malaysia has already comitted such acts, and routine acts of corruption/abuse in their police force, along with civilian reporting via the web and etc is routine.
Track record. The Malaysian track record as of this moment is superior to the Americans in terms of treatment, potential hearings and etc. They are inferior in one sense only. The Americans have arrested and detained more foreign civilians than the Malaysians have.

From a non lawyer point of view, the only advice the States can give regarding the ISA is
US:"you know, you should use the law to arrest terrorists, not political activists. Especially local political activists."
Mal:" But they're terrorists!"
US:" How do you know?"
Mal:" we know!"

And that's about it. Essentially, what expertise does the States have to offer? How to do it better? They aren't doing it better. Mistakes that shouldn't be done? The Malaysians already earned that experience. Advice from an more experienced partner? The Malaysians are more experienced.

[Shroom Man 777]

Track record. The Malaysian track record as of this moment is superior to the Americans in terms of treatment, potential hearings and etc. They are inferior in one sense only. The Americans have arrested and detained more foreign civilians than the Malaysians have.

Perhaps that's something Malaysia might be interested to develop further, in conjunction with their American partners? Certainly following in America's democratic footsteps should be something a third world nation like Malaysia should aspire to, especially since it is threatened by the Islamists and some such. More freedom and justice will aid Malaysia in flourishing into a bastion of liberation in the exotic regions of the Far Eastern Orient. A man with a dozen of these could rule all of Asia. As they say, Malaysia truly Asia.

[PainRack]

Malaysia new civil law

New assembly law chokes liberty, says Pakatan
KUALA LUMPUR, Nov 22 — Pakatan Rakyat today described the Peaceful Assembly Bill as repressive and restrictive of civil freedom, claiming it accords the police even more power to arrest individuals.

The government today finally tabled the law regulating public gatherings, two months after the prime minister first pledged reforms to laws on security and public assembly.

Shortly after it was unveiled, PR leaders said the new bill was “worse” than previous laws on public assembly, and that it simply meant “people could not gather anywhere in Malaysia.”

Section 27 of the bill states that public gatherings cannot be held in the following areas: petrol stations, hospitals, fire stations, airports, railways, land public transport terminals, ports, canals, docks, bridges, places of worship, kindergartens and schools as well as dams and reservoirs.

It states that no street protests are allowed, and bars any assembly in or within a 50 metre buffer zone around the listed prohibited areas.

“This new bill should be called the illegal assembly bill; it is worse than the previous laws,” DAP secretary-general Lim Guan Eng told reporters here.

“Malaysia is full of places of worship, so looking at the prohibited areas, you cannot gather anywhere in Malaysia.”

“This is further oppression, suppression,” he added.

Lim said under the Police Act, there was specific mention of how many people would constitute a public gathering, and that the fine for illegal assembly was between RM2,000 to RM10,000.

“Now, you can get fined up to RM20,000. And there is no mention on the number of people, police can take action and arrest anybody,” said Lim.

Section 9 (5) of the bill allows the police to fine organisers up to RM10,000 if no advance notice of a planned assembly is given to the authorities.

Section 20 (1) (c) allows for police to arrest anyone who brings or recruits children in an assembly.

Section 21 (3) allows protesters arrested by police to be fined up to RM20,000.

The new law says that there also must be 30 days’ advance notice for assemblies except for designated areas defined by the home minister. The assemblies can then proceed unless there is objection by the police.

Simultaneous assemblies may be held, but this is subject to the discretion of the police. If a “counter assembly” should cause potential conflict with another assembly nearby, police have the right to name an alternative location and time for the counter assembly to be held.

Individuals under 21 years of age not allowed to organise assemblies and children under 15 are not allowed to participate in assemblies except for cultural and religious ones like funeral corteges or events approved by the home minister.

“This is like another version of the University and University Colleges Act. The police now have added powers,” added the Penang chief minister.

PKR secretary-general Saifuddin Nasution told The Malaysian Insider that parts of the bill made it even more difficult for people to have peaceful assemblies.

“The reality is that the police will sit on an application till the very last minute, and everything is now up to the police’s discretion.

“The fines are even higher now; this is worse and is clearly meant to oppress and repress people and scare them from expressing their rights to assemble,” he said.

The Machang MP said that the new bill was a “far cry” from what PM Datuk Seri Najib Razak had promised Malaysians on the eve of Malaysia Day.

The Malaysian Insider reported recently the new law will replace Section 27 of the Police Act, doing away with police permits for mass assemblies other than street protests.

But the new law will require the “collaboration” of various parties before a public gathering can be held.

The prime minister promised a raft of reforms in his Malaysia Day address on September 15, including the repeal of the controversial Internal Security Act (ISA) and doing away with annual permits for the print media, saying he wanted to give Malaysians more freedom.

He further said the government will review Section 27 of the Police Act by taking into account Article 10 of the Federal Constitution that relates to freedom of assembly.

According to Najib, the government will allow public gatherings based on international norms while taking a firm stand against street demonstrations.

The Restricted Residence and Banishment Acts were already repealed last month, and Najib has said the repeal of the ISA will take place in March after two replacement laws have been drafted.

I'm trying to repress all the snide jokes about US aid in drafting civil laws, OWS and Malaysia allowing public gatherings based on international norms.

[Broomstick]

Seriously, for a country that's still mired in Guantanmo bay and Abu Grahib scandals.... you would had expected this to be the OTHER way around. Malaysia teaching the US how to lock up detainees so that any resulting scandal don't leak out and hurt the government.

No, please let's NOT teach the US government how to hide shit better. I want scandals to leak out easily.

[Thanas]

So was the US taken up on their offer?

[LaCroix]

So was the US taken up on their offer?

Would you accuse me of being cynical that when I look at the finely lawyered bill, which only lists some seemingly reasonable exemptions from the right of assembly, yet in real life results in an outright ban on it, I'd assume that they probably did?

[Zaune]

“We are more than happy to share our experiences but it is really up to Malaysia to pass laws that encompass civil liberty in the country.

“On our part, we do have some expertise in this area.

“For instance, we had a very healthy debate about how to counter terrorism while maintaining civil liberty,” [the US ambassador to Malaysia] told reporters after a courtesy call on Perak Mentri Besar Datuk Seri Dr Zambry Abdul Kadir at his office here yesterday.

This may not be directly relevant, but I'm afraid I really do have to take issue with the implication that the US has sufficient experience in countering terrorism to be offering the Malaysian government its advice, whether or not they've succeeded in maintaining civil liberties at the same time. A couple of decades of conducting COIN operations less than two hours by plane from your own capital is experience in countering terrorism. A one-off attack, no matter how devastating, followed up by a string of operations so amateurish that they barely deserve to be called terrorist plots at all is not.

Sorry, that's always rather irked me.

[PainRack]

So was the US taken up on their offer?

Would you accuse me of being cynical that when I look at the finely lawyered bill, which only lists some seemingly reasonable exemptions from the right of assembly, yet in real life results in an outright ban on it, I'd assume that they probably did?

I'm actually waiting for AnyiThing to come in and post about how regressive the law could be. In the past, what happens was that you needed a police permit to hold a protest. There are some guidelines which guide their selection process but essentially, they COULD deny the permit for any reason they choose to concoct.

They did allow a remarkable number of rallies and protests even with such a law.

But with the new guidelines in place, essentially any of the numerous rallies held in the past few years would had been illegal.

[AniThyng]

I am not at all surprised that they decided to pull this off. That being said I think in the long run this is actually a good thing, as making *everything* illegal is a good way to force the ordinary people to confront the facts of the party we voted into place and stop making excuses for them.