Ranchers Live in Fear

[Highlord Laan]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45440385/ns ... tCBC_L0Lcs

Okay. I'm going to say something confrontational here. Start parking Guard garrisons along the border. Expand Border Patrol. And when the Cartels start getting uppity, issue a shoot to kill order and tell Mexico's "leadership" that if they don't get their shit together, we'll do it for them.

[Block]

Ok, but the Guard is a state level asset. So Texas can do that on its own, but doesn't want to pay for it.

[The Romulan Republic]

On the one hand, the cartels are undoubtably dangerous and evil, and probably should be dealt with more forcefully.

On the other hand, I wouldn't put it past some conservative Texans to exaggerate the problems due to opposition to illegal immigration or simple racism.

[Block]

On the other hand, I wouldn't put it past some conservative Texans to exaggerate the problems due to opposition to illegal immigration or simple racism.

Certainly part of it. If it were really as dangerous a situation as claimed the state would get off its ass and send the Guard to the border, instead of trying to use the news media to shame the Federal government into paying for it. Texas wants it done, but it's not urgent enough for them to actually do anything about it themselves.

[Alkaloid]

And when the Cartels start getting uppity, issue a shoot to kill order and tell Mexico's "leadership" that if they don't get their shit together, we'll do it for them.

Yeah, good idea. Obama should totally give the National Guard orders to shoot anyone coming over the border who looks a bit dodgy, and then invade Mexico if they don't 'get their shit together.' After that, no worries.

[Winston Blake]

Authorised to use lethal force != shoot on sight.

[Thanas]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45440385/ns ... tCBC_L0Lcs

Okay. I'm going to say something confrontational here.

No, it looks like you are going to say something dumb here.

Start parking Guard garrisons along the border. Expand Border Patrol. And when the Cartels start getting uppity, issue a shoot to kill order and tell Mexico's "leadership" that if they don't get their shit together, we'll do it for them.

How about you try and formulate an intelligent thought for once? Pray tell me how any of this is going to fix the problem?

[Alkaloid]

Authorised to use lethal force != shoot on sight.

I'm sorry, how do you interpret the phrase 'And when the Cartels start getting uppity, issue a shoot to kill order?' Because to me that's not even close to 'authorised lethal force' it's 'if you see a cartel member, shoot him.' Without going into the notorious difficulties in identifying such people and the inevitable deaths of Mexicans near the border, let alone trying to cross it.

[Zaune]

Yeah, good idea. Obama should totally give the National Guard orders to shoot anyone coming over the border who looks a bit dodgy, and then invade Mexico if they don't 'get their shit together.' After that, no worries.

Anyone coming over the border who looks a bit dodgy? That's just asking for trouble. Anyone coming over the border in numbers and carrying firearms is another matter, though even then I'd hope the Guard were operating under tight rules of engagement; they only have to gun down a group of farmhands from south of the border out hunting coyotes (the four-legged kind) by mistake and the shit will really hit the fan.

[Winston Blake]

Authorised to use lethal force != shoot on sight.

I'm sorry, how do you interpret the phrase 'And when the Cartels start getting uppity, issue a shoot to kill order?' Because to me that's not even close to 'authorised lethal force' it's 'if you see a cartel member, shoot him.' Without going into the notorious difficulties in identifying such people and the inevitable deaths of Mexicans near the border, let alone trying to cross it.

You clearly have very restricted personal definitions of 'uppity' and 'shoot to kill'. If you're just going to repeat your posts with different words each time, there's not much I can do.

Laan - precisely what did you mean?

[SVPD]

The National Guard already IS on the border. They sit in our musters every day.

What they are not doing is using military vehicles; they drive around in Border Patrol trucks. They also don't actually make apprehensions themselves; what they mostly do is man observation points in order to steer Border Patrol agents in on groups of aliens or smugglers they see. They will, of course, come back up agents in dangerous situations but they generally are not the primary point of contact.

[Alkaloid]

You clearly have very restricted personal definitions of 'uppity' and 'shoot to kill'. If you're just going to repeat your posts with different words each time, there's not much I can do.

OK, if they're shooting at all, they are already shooting to kill. Now, presumably, being the military used for law enforcement, they have rules of engagement that allow them to use lethal force in certain conditions. Armed men shooting at them or shooting at ranchers is likely to be one of those conditions. Issuing a 'shoot to kill' order at this point, implies changing the ROE that they are using to allow them to use lethal force earlier, and there are a very limited number of ways to do that. The most likely step I can think of there is 'fire on armed Mexicans crossing the border.' Now if one or more of the cartels go insane and try to actually invade Texas because bonkers, then I can see how that order might be justified, but as far as I know, these things are still being run by more or less sane people, so they are not using their mighty armed gang to invade the largest military superpower on the planet and are unlikely to, and I don't see any way to justify just opening fire. More patrols, sure. Using the military to have larger and more heavily armed patrols so that should a smuggling operation (not here that I assume most of the time these ranchers are shot at is because they accidentally stumble across drugs being smuggled across the border, and "'m working based on that. If cartel members are crossing the border just to shoot farmers then there is a whole other kind of problem.) be found they can be arrested easily or overpowered easily if they do decide to resist, fine. But issuing a 'shoot to kill' order is just going to lead to trouble.
That said, if Laan can explain what his shoot to kill order means and it's sensible, fine. I still have issues with the whole 'fix the cartels if the Mexican government can't' and how the hell he thinks that is going to work though.

they only have to gun down a group of farmhands from south of the border out hunting coyotes (the four-legged kind) by mistake and the shit will really hit the fan.

Or a group of Americans who accidentally crossed the border hunting coyotes. Or a group of Mexicans with camera stands near the border. That's how this sort of thing ends.