Is a linear paradigm too simple for US politics?

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Themightytom
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Is a linear paradigm too simple for US politics?

Post by Themightytom »

http://www.valuesandcapitalism.com/dial ... d-36-hours

Giant blog is quoted below, my response to it is this,
traditionally, we have described our political system in the us as linear. Right, left and middle. With the emergence of the Tea party and what I anticipate to be the emergence of Occupy, we would have essentially four organized perspectives. Occupy and Tea party share an adjacent border in this model, that they are anti establishment,

Republican and Democrat being much more invested in the status quo. Ideologically, Occupy and Democrats are more oriented towards social justice regulated by the government, while Republicans and Tea party are more oriented towards an individualized justice model. Occupy pushes anarchy, Democrat pushes structure, Republican pushes a strong central government, Tea party pushes a more libertarian near absence of government.

Personally, I am constantly running into ideological clutter, as the blog's author describes, people aligned with a movement though they are not in agreement with core principles of it. I think a linear model is one dimensional and does not reflect the level of diversity currently present in our political system. As always moderates or independents remain an unorganized collection of central beliefs and values. Any thoughts?
On October 7, I traveled to New York City to interview the “occupiers” protesting in Zuccotti Park. The next day, I attended the Values Voter Summit, the annual gathering of social conservatives hosted by the Family Research Council.

I wish I could say I had the foresight to plan this. I had been invited to attend the Summit as a "featured Tweeter" weeks earlier, while the New York trip occurred just days after a colleague joked about giving away books to the protestors. So, whether by providence or dumb luck, it happened that in fewer than 36 hours I experienced a sort of ethnography of the ends of American political culture.

What I learned in New York left me enlivened and optimistic for the future. I walked away from the Values Voter Summit burdened by the dysfunction of a brand of conservatism that is so much smaller than it could be.

__________________________________________________

As I descended the steps into Zuccotti Park, I reaffirmed my commitment to fairness. It would be easy to identify the most-pierced or most homely looking for juicy quotes. My goal was different. I wanted to learn and, perhaps, to share my own perspective. So, I put on a disposition of warmth and generosity.



Walking around the park, I made a point of interviewing those who had been involved from the beginning, were viewed as leaders, and weren’t bombastic (i.e. they would not support defecating on police cars). I’ve experienced the frustration of media reports that stereotype “Tea Partiers” by the actions of the most radical, fringe members. Honesty and loving-kindness required me to be more responsible.

It quickly became clear that the protesters, or “occupiers,” are wrong on policy. While the decentralized, diverse nature of their protest makes it impossible to criticize “their” demands, it is fair to characterize the general impetus of their preferred policies as far-left progressivism. I saw protesters advocating higher, more redistributionist taxes, deep cuts in military spending, increased spending on big government programs for health care, education, and green energy, an increase in the minimum wage, free college education and so on.

Most occupiers are long on conviction but short on sophisticated thinking. Contradictions abound: Some oppose crony capitalism but support preferential treatment of green energy firms like Solyndra. Others are concerned about the deficit and national debt, but want free college education for everyone. Some detest capitalism, but willingly accept and distribute donations purchased online from Amazon.com and delivered by FedEx. They eat pizza from the shop down the street and document their experiences with iPhones.

None of this surprised me. The occupiers are blind with frustration. They lack job prospects, having been let down by the first president they ever voted for—a man who was supposed to change things. Many are the products of American higher education, the last stronghold of their hippie predecessors-turned-professors who continue to espouse ideas otherwise discarded on Reagan’s heap of ashes.

All are wanderers, lost in the ever-lengthening void between childhood and maturity, unmoored and anxious. Twenty years ago, Christopher McCandless tramped his way to Alaska in a Kerouacian search for significance (chronicled in Jon Krakauer’s classic book Into the Wild). Twenty years later, these are his kids.

Despite the ignorance and self-evident hypocrisy, I found myself drawn to the protesters. Despite their wrongheaded policy views, they are driven by a desire for justice, peace, freedom, fairness, and—yes—for prosperity. They are animated by the belief that we can be better than we currently are.

In fact, their movement is a microcosm of American exceptionalism. Here we see a few dozen strangers who have descended on an empty plot of land and formed a community. Within a few days, as individuals began to see the unique contributions they were able to make, they had established a library, a post office and a kitchen. Someone recognized the need to wash the dishes piling up in the kitchen, so they built an elaborate system of water filtration out of dirt, rocks, plastic barrels and PVC pipe.



Someone makes buttons. Another trades drawings for books, food or anything else that might be useful. It’s a marketplace, driven by the entrepreneurial spirit to contribute to the common good.

Quickly, the protestors realized that if their community was going to work, they needed rules—and a system to encourage compliance. I met Sophie who described her role as a “community mediator.”

“There were some disagreements about substance use in the park. So we have to work that stuff out,” she explained.

Every so often, a protester would yell out, “Mic check!” Those nearby would echo, “Mic check!” The process was repeated until everyone was listening. Because bullhorns aren't allowed in the park, the protesters used this system to echo an individual's message to the entire group. “Five volunteers are needed to sort the mail.”

As I explored Zuccotti Park and interviewed its citizens I thought of Tocqueville. The occupiers are quintessentially American—and many are conservatives. They just don’t realize it.

This intuition was confirmed during my favorite conversation of the day. When I first saw Eddie, he was sitting Indian-style on the ground next to another young man. He wore a camouflage jacket, beaded necklaces, and rainbow-colored spandex pants. They were singing what I later learned was an anthem of the Lakota nation. Eddie's outfit caught my eye, but the chorus he sang captured my curiosity:

I love you so, so, so, so much.

I love you so, so, so, so much.

Eddie later explained to me that he had been arrested during the protests and that he was harboring animosity towards the police. The song was an attempt at forgiveness. A little weird, sure, but the underlying sentiment is admirable.

After a few minutes, Eddie got to talking about healthcare. He surprised me by admitting that he didn’t think the federal government could do a very good job at managing it. He described a vision wherein each state was charged with providing care as it saw fit. Such a system would enable 50 laboratories of innovation that could experiment and share best practices.

Dumbfounded, I said that his idea sounded a lot like the plans of some Republicans like Rep. Paul Ryan to give states block grants of federal money and allow each to determine how to best spend the money.

“What do you think?” I asked.

“Awesome! I think that's a great idea.” He exclaimed.

It’s unlikely that Eddie woke up the next morning, shaved his goatee, and applied for a job at The Heritage Foundation. But our short conversation planted a seed and showed Eddie that maybe conservative ideas aren’t all bad.

__________________________________________________

Whatever hope I had for the natural conservative impulse I discovered at Occupy Wall Street was dashed the next day.

The Values Voter Summit was tainted by ideologues and infighting. The hate speech was sickening. It was conservatism defined by antipathy. It was anti-gay, anti-Muslim and anti-Mormon. The disdain for our fellow citizens was surpassed only by the fearful prospect of four more years of Obama.

As the crowd of over 3,000 applauded, I sat. “Is this really what we are about?”

The final event of my day was a break-out session for young conservative leaders, moderated by my friend Darin Miller and featuring prominent young activists Lila Rose and Jason Mattera, author of the New York Times bestseller Obama Zombies.

After listening to Mattera mock liberals and congratulate himself for a series of guerrilla-style interviews of prominent politicians and activists, I left. Later, via Twitter I asked him, “Do you worry about your style alienating potential conservatives?”

A few minutes later he responded: “Nah, I’m just being me.”

“Due respect,” I wrote back, “but that’s a cop out. Your whole thing is education, why not expect more of yourself? We need to be effective. Presumably (and correctly) you wouldn’t accept an 'occupier' saying, ‘I’m just being me’.”

Mattera replied, “If tightwads are offended by my 'style' (read: my personality), oh well. They need a life. 'Occupiers' have no reason for existence. They don’t even have the insight to know what ‘I’m just being me’ means.” (Note—this is slightly edited for clarity and grammar)

Back to me: “To sum up, your reply to the fact that your rhetoric may make it harder for your fellow conservatives is ‘get a life?’”

Mattera: “Yes. And, if can add, grow some balls.”

Jason is a product of a contemporary conservative movement that has lost any sense of the artfulness and humanity required if we are going to appeal to the majority of Americans who don’t align inalterably with the Right in American politics. His tutors were on stage. In eight hours at the Summit, not a single speaker articulated an argument about the justice inherent to free enterprise. No one explained why conservative policies are the most fair. No one said a word about helping the poor.

Conservatives complain that we are depicted as heartless, concerned more with tax rates and fidelity to the Constitution than the homeless and single working mothers. It isn’t true. I’m a conservative because my faith compels me to love my neighbor. I’m an advocate of the free market because I know that capitalism is the system that makes everyone wealthier, healthier, safer, and more educated. I felt alone at the Values Voter Summit. The rhetoric flowing there had the affect of inoculating me—a committed conservative—from wanting to hear any more. Imagine how off-putting it is to those on the fence.

__________________________________________________

It’s time for a new kind of conversation. Articulating the conservative vision should be a romance. Conservatives can woo the undecided to our side and recapture the hearts of those whose fidelity to progressivism is shallow.

Like dating, this will take work. We have to keep the end-goal in mind. It’s a process, requiring patience and the portrayal of our best selves. This means demonstrating an ability to engage in roundabout, inefficient dialogue. It means affirming the other, gently and gracefully offering alternatives (or not). It means putting out an attractive quality that compels the other to want to know more.

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Re: Is a linear paradigm too simple for US politics?

Post by Sea Skimmer »

I think we've had discussions before that a 3-D chart would work much better, with social freedom, economic freedom and government size as the axis and that this would fairly well cover all viewpoints. A linear bar is certainly is too simple.
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Re: Is a linear paradigm too simple for US politics?

Post by Formless »

A three dimensional chart would be better than what we have, but I think it still has flaws. Namely, its still linear, just in three directions at once.

The problem with all these models where you can place someone onto a GRAEPH and call that their political position is that it assumes that just because certain beliefs are correlated with one another you can assume that holding any one of them makes you more or less conservative or liberal, authoritarian or libertarian, x vs whatever. But a correlation does not necessarily imply a logical connection.

Say you have three people. Two of them have distinct, organized political philosophies, but they share not one belief because they have different interests underlying their philosophies. The third person has a belief system incorporating elements of both, stemming from his own unique set of interests or because he simply lacks a coherent ideology. The existence of this third person does not make it logical to group the first two together under a simplistic label like "conservatives" or "liberal." They share nothing in common except that they agree with the third person on a few things. Its a simple mistake of seeing a pattern that does not exist, while flatly ignoring the underlying ideologies and the logic of them.

For instance, a christian conservative may not be the same thing as constitution worshiper, a libertarian, or a realpolitik militarist, even though all of those people may register as republicans and have times where their agendas broadly coincide. The political narratives driving their actions are still distinct in every case, and there will be times where these narratives differ or clash. Similarly, at the other end of the spectrum we've all been duped into believing exists, a classical progressive and a classical liberal are different political philosophies that just happened to have common ground multiple times throughout history, so we all just call them Liberals nowadays. And to make it even more ridiculous, we also lump socialists and anarchists among the "left" even though Liberalism is very much a capitalist ideology, and almost all of these ideologies are pro-government except anarchism.

Its a sham, but this spectrum narrative does serve a purpose. It permits the two major parties to constantly play the "us VS them" card, even though there may be quite a few valid disagreements of priorities among their own constituents. Plus it allows people to vote against their own interests while under the delusion that they are trying to vote for the lesser of two evils-- in other words, vote for someone who shares none of their beliefs or priorities just because the other candidate represents the opposite of what they want. And lastly it discourages people from actually learning about the ideologies actually represented in the political sphere of life because they can simply slap a meaningless label onto their disorganized beliefs and identify with others who do so.

A much better political classification system would be qualitative, represent ideologies as standing on their own merits, and allow people to have multiple labels where they have beliefs from non-interacting (but also non-contradicting) political philosophies. Of course, it would help if our society first removed its adherence to the two party system that enables this kind of thinking. But that goes without saying.
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Re: Is a linear paradigm too simple for US politics?

Post by D.Turtle »

So your argument is that we need some kind of way too be able to articulate differences in position in such a way that views independent of each other are not lumped together.

Kind of like different dimensions in a graph.
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Re: Is a linear paradigm too simple for US politics?

Post by Simon_Jester »

No, he's right.

To graph what Formless is talking about you'd need an N-dimensional graph, where N is a hell of a lot bigger than three. Just having a single "size of government" axis isn't enough when there are deep disagreements about not just if the government should be doing things, but which things. A single "economic freedom" axis isn't enough to describe the difference between someone who values economic freedom of choice for corporations but not for citizens, versus someone who values it for citizens but not for corporations. A single "social liberties" axis isn't enough to describe the difference between someone who approves of separation of church and state and doesn't mind modern art but wishes all the gays would go back in the closet because they're making him uncomfortable, and someone who is fine with homosexuality but thinks it's a really brilliant idea for the government to monitor everyone's phone calls because the innocent have nothing to fear.
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Re: Is a linear paradigm too simple for US politics?

Post by Starglider »

Simon_Jester wrote:To graph what Formless is talking about you'd need an N-dimensional graph, where N is a hell of a lot bigger than three.
It would be a heavily clustered n-dimensional graph. In fact I'm pretty sure that standard dimension reduction algorithms would do a decent job of compressing it to 3 dimensions, it's just that the (strongly correlated) value sets for those three axes likely won't match neatly with the convenient recognisable labels people like to pick. If I were a political science academic I'd be happy to do the analysis, in between running monte carlo simulations of socio-economic upheaval. :)
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Re: Is a linear paradigm too simple for US politics?

Post by Formless »

There are other ways of visualizing data besides graphs, you know. Personally, I would think some kind of concept map, (absurdly complex) Venn diagram, or taxonomy would be more accurate, if only because none of those require arbitrary quantification of beliefs. It might get complicated fast, but that's life. Better to have high complexity than oversimplification, I say.
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Re: Is a linear paradigm too simple for US politics?

Post by D.Turtle »

The thing is quite simple: Obviously, you can't capture the entire breadth of political positions on a 3-dimensional graph. However, you can capture a humongous amount of variability with only a few dimensions.

In fact, the (supposed counter-)example given by Formless are an excellent expression of that. He has two people with completely opposite, non-overlapping views - simply perfect for being put on opposite extremes of various dimensions of a graph. Then you have a third person who has some views that agree with the others and other views that disagree with them.

Great! So, one dimension would be where he agrees with person A, but disagrees with person B. Another dimension would be where he agrees with person B, but disagrees with person A.

Tada! We have reduced their views down to two dimensions.

Now, what those dimensions represent and consist of - that is another question, as Starglider pointed out.

Edit: The same could be done with his other examples. It is simply absurd to claim that a three-dimensional graph is linear. Just look around you: Does the world look linear to you? It is possible to express a huge variety of views with just a few dimensions.
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Re: Is a linear paradigm too simple for US politics?

Post by Formless »

D.Turtle wrote:In fact, the (supposed counter-)example given by Formless are an excellent expression of that. He has two people with completely opposite, non-overlapping views- simply perfect for being put on opposite extremes of various dimensions of a graph. Then you have a third person who has some views that agree with the others and other views that disagree with them.
Bzzt. Wrong, dumbass. The third person in that was not supposed to represent moderates, he is there to demonstrate the opposite of what your strawman version of my argument is implying-- that the first two people's positions are contradictory of one another. At no point did I say that they were. They are simply unrelated, stemming from different interests. Interests, as in "I am interested in social issues" and "I am interested in economic issues". That kind of interest. The third person would be interested in both social issues and economic issues. Now if you are trying to determine how "conservative" each of these people are, say with one of those stupid internet quizzes? In most of those quizzes, and in the minds of people who subscribe to this silly theory, they simply tally up how many "conservative" answers you gave, in the belief that this establishes your belief system. However, when you go back and organize the questions into what kinds of issues the questions pertain to (and some tests come with them pre-sorted), you realize there is the potential to under-represent how conservative the first two people are, because they may simply give a "don't care" answer to questions outside their field of interest. The third person-- who may not even have a consistent political philosophy, he may just be a mindless Republican talking points drone-- will appear to be the most conservative of them all. But he isn't-- he just has a wider set of political issues he is interested in. And that is granting that conservatism can be defined by lumping political beliefs together at random as long as they happen to be ones commonly held by self identifying "conservatives".

Also, that was not an example. It does not fit the most basic definition of an example. Its an argument, directed against the fundamental assumption that we can quantify beliefs based on how many you hold that are on one side of a "spectrum" or another. What you missed is that this quantification is based not on what people assume about the world or value in it, its based on how many of their conclusions about the world correlate to a "liberal" or a "conservative" worldview, or any other arbitrary dichotomy you want to construct. I remember Darth Wong once made a similar point by talking about all the beliefs he has that appear to come from both sides of the spectrum... but all stay consistent with a central set of beliefs. So was he a liberal, or a conservative? He was Wong. It would be too simple, too convenient to simply label him as one or another. Or as a moderate.

The examples came later, but you apparently didn't stop to think about a one of them. For instance, why do liberals disagree with Conservatives? Because Liberals are supposed to be the ones who care about civil rights and social equality, whereas Conservatives tend to be more racist and religious. Never mind that a conservative could be all for civil rights because he's read the Declaration of Independence and really loves what the founders like Jefferson had to say, while still holding to American exceptionalism for the exact same reason. Anyway. Now why do Progressives oppose conservatives? Because conservatives are supposed to be more traditionalist, Reactionary, slow to change, in love with the status quo, love going on about the Good Old Days, etc. Progressives take the stance that these things are for various reasons in need of improvement; their assumptions about the world are in conflict with the Conservative's assumptions. Of course, there is a paradox that Progressives can sometimes look at the past and find times that were more progressive than today, but anyway. What about Socialists? Like liberals they too want more equality, but they tend to focus more on economic equality. In the extreme they might be Dirty Commies. Conservatives on the other hand are almost universally capitalists, and may even be libertarian or Corporatist. And anarchists? Okay, here we have one position where the Conservative may or may not be opposed, thanks to the Small Government ideology and the Libertarian subset, but there are also Authoritarian variations such as Fascism who look down on Anarchists like they look down on ants.

Look at that. Four different political dimensions, all defined by looking at deep issues that oppose the traditional Conservative as depicted in the traditional Left VS Right dichotomy. You can even come up with more, such as Religious VS Secular. I hear that one is important down in the South, and in Texas. In fact, you can probably come up with as many dimensions on the graph as there are disagreeing central values to construct political philosophies around.

Anyway, at some point, it starts making sense to see conservatives as being different groups as well. Does this mean they are subsets, rather than true groups? No, as established, we have at least one area where they are polarized among themselves (or should in theory be polarized)-- Fascists vs Libertarians. And do the "Left" positions agree with one another? Hell no. Anarchists VS Everyone, for starters. Liberals and Communists tend to disagree, because historically the philosophy of Liberalism held a capitalist outlook. Jhon Locke actually wrote that the three basic rights were "Life, Liberty, and Property" (which adds some interesting connotations to a similar proclamation of one of his more notable fans...). Lastly, Progressives can take issue with anyone depending on what they think constitutes "progress", say, if they are Socialist as well (again, remembering that these need not be seen as mutually exclusive philosophies). So they aren't organized around the same central values, which makes it dumb as shit to lump them together into a neatly defined package called "the Left".

Now, is there anything else I need to spell out for you in minute detail?
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Re: Is a linear paradigm too simple for US politics?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Starglider wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:To graph what Formless is talking about you'd need an N-dimensional graph, where N is a hell of a lot bigger than three.
It would be a heavily clustered n-dimensional graph. In fact I'm pretty sure that standard dimension reduction algorithms would do a decent job of compressing it to 3 dimensions, it's just that the (strongly correlated) value sets for those three axes likely won't match neatly with the convenient recognisable labels people like to pick. If I were a political science academic I'd be happy to do the analysis, in between running monte carlo simulations of socio-economic upheaval. :)
Okay, if you did the clustering from the evidence, rather than artificially constructing the axes from scratch, then you might get down to... well, at least a single-digit integer number of dimensions, if not three.
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Re: Is a linear paradigm too simple for US politics?

Post by Formless »

Yeah, the dimensions on these political spectrum theories would be a lot more palatable if there was work done to first figure out which central value disputes were more important than others, warranting their placement on the graph. Graphs can be useful tools, so long as the values of the axis are well defined (and possible to quantify) and they do not try to overextend themselves to represent more than that. Its when you start defining all political stances based on where they fall on an arbitrarily constructed graph that it falls apart. Because graphs were never supposed to be used that way.
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Re: Is a linear paradigm too simple for US politics?

Post by B5B7 »

Another problem with mapping peoples' positions, is the difference between what they claim to support and what they actually do support. For example, many rightwingers claim to be anti-big government and pro-liberty, yet they support anti-drug, anti-abortion, anti-gay, etc. positions that they demand that the government act as to support their anti-liberty position, so they are actually pro-big government and anti-freedom.
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Re: Is a linear paradigm too simple for US politics?

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*points to his sig*

Starglider is right, political opinions tend to overlap.
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Re: Is a linear paradigm too simple for US politics?

Post by D.Turtle »

Formless wrote: Bzzt. Wrong, dumbass. The third person in that was not supposed to represent moderates, he is there to demonstrate the opposite of what your strawman version of my argument is implying-- that the first two people's positions are contradictory of one another. At no point did I say that they were. They are simply unrelated, stemming from different interests. Interests, as in "I am interested in social issues" and "I am interested in economic issues". That kind of interest. The third person would be interested in both social issues and economic issues. Now if you are trying to determine how "conservative" each of these people are, say with one of those stupid internet quizzes? In most of those quizzes, and in the minds of people who subscribe to this silly theory, they simply tally up how many "conservative" answers you gave, in the belief that this establishes your belief system. However, when you go back and organize the questions into what kinds of issues the questions pertain to (and some tests come with them pre-sorted), you realize there is the potential to under-represent how conservative the first two people are, because they may simply give a "don't care" answer to questions outside their field of interest. The third person-- who may not even have a consistent political philosophy, he may just be a mindless Republican talking points drone-- will appear to be the most conservative of them all. But he isn't-- he just has a wider set of political issues he is interested in. And that is granting that conservatism can be defined by lumping political beliefs together at random as long as they happen to be ones commonly held by self identifying "conservatives".
I misunderstood your example (or argument). I understood it as two people having opinions on questions/political ideas that never agree, which is why I addressed that aspect. Instead you meant something different. My bad, and I'll address it how I now understand you meant it.

In your example/argument, you pose two hypothetical people who have structured political ideas that address entirely different questions, and in no case do their political opinions address the same question. In that case it is even easier to make a relevant graph of their political opinions. Since their opinions never address the same question, you can simply put their views on two dimensions. The first would be agreement with person A (from total disagreement to total agreement). The second would be agreement with person B. Person C would agree to some extent with person A, to another degree with person B, and presto, you've reduced their views down to two dimensions.

Now, as you add more people to this situation, you could fit all of them on that two-dimensional graph and glean a lot of useful information about their political views. That is not to say that you could represent their views 100% accurately and down to the greatest detail and nuance, but then that isn't the goal of such a scheme.

Everything else you've written is mostly arguing against a certain (one-dimensional) version of such a graph. I agree that a one-dimensional liberal-conservative division could be greatly improved upon. One of the most well-known version is a two-dimensional graph with social and economic freedom, which captures a lot more of the variance of views.

Increasing the amount of dimensions you regard is always a trade-off. Yes, you lose information the less dimensions you have, but it is also lot harder to gather the information needed to properly place people in all the various dimensions you can think of. The thing is, that it is possible to capture a huge degree of the variance in political views with just a few dimensions. You very quickly get into areas where you do not really get a lot more information despite increasing the amount of dimensions you look at. It simply is a fact that views on various political ideas are strongly correlated with each other.
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Re: Is a linear paradigm too simple for US politics?

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D.Turtle wrote:In your example/argument, you pose two hypothetical people who have structured political ideas that address entirely different questions, and in no case do their political opinions address the same question. In that case it is even easier to make a relevant graph of their political opinions. Since their opinions never address the same question, you can simply put their views on two dimensions.
Please read my posts all the way through before trying to address my arguments. Its obvious that you are merely skimming after the first paragraph or so. I know the post is long, but TL;DR is not a valid excuse. In fact, you can pause right here and scroll up and finish, you are not obligated to read in a linear fashion (heh).

...

Okay, done? Now, can you guess my next argument? Its actually a question. What objective standard are you going to use for how "conservative" or "liberal" someone is? Or any other political dichotomy, of course, like libertarian vs authoritarian. Imagine if those two people form their conclusions from the exact same set of assumptions and logic about the world, but applied to different issues. The third person applies it to both of those that the first two had, and possibly others as well. Could you objectively distinguish these people apart from the people with unrelated (but non-contradictory) philosophies based solely on their conclusions about the world? If not, is it really an objective standard? Is it not better to look at the central assumptions people make or values they hold dear than beliefs that correlate to one position or another?

And how do you quantify something like that? That is the heart of this issue.

I know people liek GRAEPHS, and I admit they can be useful tools in areas where quantification is possible. But, I do not buy that these linear 2d or 3d graphs justify themselves based on the convenience of simplifying the political landscape, unless you have an evidence based methodology for sorting out the trivial issues from the ones that are of central importance to our society. You can't construct a graph from first principles, and I frankly distrust the person who tries. Like I said before, graphs also have propagandist purposes that limit rather than inform political dialogue, and they are not the only way to represent the data we have. I offered no less than three, each of which remove the necessity of splitting every issue into a dichotomy (which naturally lends itself to the US VS THEM bias people have). I put it to you that its really the only way to understand the difference between, say, a communist and a syndicalist or a (theoretical) Libertarian from a generic tax hating corporatist.
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Re: Is a linear paradigm too simple for US politics?

Post by ComradeClaus »

Right, I recently took the political compass test that Skgoa has in his signature & got a left -7.88/ Libertarian -2.05.

But the 6 page questonair had nothing on views toward gun control, which would've swung me farther to the right. (my progay rights stance likely put me over the line.)

What would you call an atheist, left-wing, pro-gun, pro-piracy person anyway?
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Re: Is a linear paradigm too simple for US politics?

Post by Zed »

Mao?


These graphical representations of political beliefs tend only to be useful for statistical purposes, possibly identifying the correlations between political positions. In order for deeper analysis, it's necessary to look at it in far greater depth than a few dimensions. For instance, it's quite clear that both the ideologies of capitalism and socialism are strong believers in the idea of progress, both on an economic and on a scientific level. They are quite similar on this level, when compared to the ideologies they displaced. It's very difficult to identify such shared qualities on a graph with very limited dimensions.
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Re: Is a linear paradigm too simple for US politics?

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Formless wrote: Please read my posts all the way through before trying to address my arguments. Its obvious that you are merely skimming after the first paragraph or so. I know the post is long, but TL;DR is not a valid excuse. In fact, you can pause right here and scroll up and finish, you are not obligated to read in a linear fashion (heh).

...

Okay, done? Now, can you guess my next argument? Its actually a question. What objective standard are you going to use for how "conservative" or "liberal" someone is? Or any other political dichotomy, of course, like libertarian vs authoritarian. Imagine if those two people form their conclusions from the exact same set of assumptions and logic about the world, but applied to different issues. The third person applies it to both of those that the first two had, and possibly others as well. Could you objectively distinguish these people apart from the people with unrelated (but non-contradictory) philosophies based solely on their conclusions about the world? If not, is it really an objective standard? Is it not better to look at the central assumptions people make or values they hold dear than beliefs that correlate to one position or another?

And how do you quantify something like that? That is the heart of this issue.

I know people liek GRAEPHS, and I admit they can be useful tools in areas where quantification is possible. But, I do not buy that these linear 2d or 3d graphs justify themselves based on the convenience of simplifying the political landscape, unless you have an evidence based methodology for sorting out the trivial issues from the ones that are of central importance to our society. You can't construct a graph from first principles, and I frankly distrust the person who tries. Like I said before, graphs also have propagandist purposes that limit rather than inform political dialogue, and they are not the only way to represent the data we have. I offered no less than three, each of which remove the necessity of splitting every issue into a dichotomy (which naturally lends itself to the US VS THEM bias people have). I put it to you that its really the only way to understand the difference between, say, a communist and a syndicalist or a (theoretical) Libertarian from a generic tax hating corporatist.
Again, its mostly a question of how fine-grained a representation you want to have. For a lot of questions even the obviously simplistic one dimensional liberal-conservative split captures a lot of the variation. Just look at things like climate change, gun rights, immigration rights, abortion views, opinion of Obama, opinion of other politicians, what TV channels are watched, what radio stations are listened to, individual rights, states' rights, etc. It is obviously not a 100% correlation to liberal/conservative, but a big correlation none-the-less. There are a ton of polls on various issues in which you can see a clear divide between conservatives and liberals. Sure, it can be improved, but it always requires a lot more work - and the question is always if the additional information is worth the work put into it. In a lot of cases it isn't.

Now, if you want to capture a lot more of the variation, then you could design a poll/questionnaire with tons of questions on various issues/opinions/political ideas/etc. Then you take the results from that view and evaluate them with various statistical tools. I would guess that principle component analysis, for example, would work very well to try and narrow it down to as few components/axis/dimensions as possible.

If you search on Google scholar, you can find a number of articles using PCA on political questions and views (among a lot of other methods). You will also notice, that most of these deal with very specific questions/matters and find various groupings with regards to those questions. You might find this study quite interesting, for example. This study, and the articles citing it could also be interesting.
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Re: Is a linear paradigm too simple for US politics?

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D.Turtle wrote:Again, its mostly a question of how fine-grained a representation you want to have. For a lot of questions even the obviously simplistic one dimensional liberal-conservative split captures a lot of the variation.
Christ, you aren't even arguing anymore. Just stop posting until you can address a simply question like "how do you honestly quantify this shit?" At the moment, you haven't even acknowledged that we're asking for two different things to be quantified (correlations VS actual fucking differences). It isn't just a matter of capturing political variation, its about understanding political variation.

Its like you're so oblivious to how the paradigm has effected your understanding of politics that you just ignore any challenge to what it represents. One of my points earlier was that it discourages people from looking deeper into political ideologies to find the root differences between them. You are making a very nice practical demonstration of that effect right here, in this post.
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Re: Is a linear paradigm too simple for US politics?

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Formless wrote: Christ, you aren't even arguing anymore. Just stop posting until you can address a simply question like "how do you honestly quantify this shit?" At the moment, you haven't even acknowledged that we're asking for two different things to be quantified (correlations VS actual fucking differences). It isn't just a matter of capturing political variation, its about understanding political variation.

Its like you're so oblivious to how the paradigm has effected your understanding of politics that you just ignore any challenge to what it represents. One of my points earlier was that it discourages people from looking deeper into political ideologies to find the root differences between them. You are making a very nice practical demonstration of that effect right here, in this post.
If you would have looked at some of the studies I linked to, thats exactly what they do.

There is no one perfect solution to everything, I agree on that. How you look at people, divide them into groups, or categorize them always depends on what kind of question you are asking.

Looking at US elections for example, conservative vs liberal is a very good approximation, as there are (pretty much) only two parties to choose from. If you look at other, more complicated issues, then you can find other divisions/categories.

There is a lot of research into trying to find out where political variations/ideologies come from. This study for example looks at links between genetics and ideology, and where that link could come from.
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