New Redletter Media video about Lucas

[Jim Raynor]

As far as I can tell Raynor has been schooling the shit out of a couple of scrubs unable to answer basic points. Also, the frantic fanboy urge to stick up for the old movies is pretty hilarious.

Fucking Tarkin was told that the Rebels, the same Rebels who sucessfully stole the plans to his Death Star, were now attacking said Death Star and his orders were "HAHA WE'RE INVINCIBLE, DO NOTHING!" He's so stupid he goes out of his way to avoid taking basic precautions like launching his hundreds of fighters to intercept the enemy, forcing Vader to go out there and try to take them out with three fighters. Then when some lackey comes up and tells Tarkin that there really is a threat and that he should get the fuck out, his reaction is "NONSENSE! IMMINENT TRIUMPH! I INSIST WE DO NOTHING!" followed by getting exploded.

Glad to see someone else here who isn't sipping RLM's Kool-Aid. Tarkin's actions during the Battle of Yavin truly were inexplicable and stupid. Not that the tryhard prequel haters like to acknowledge things like that.

Tryhard people like the following...

In case you didn't pay attention, but the chance of the rebels successfully hitting the ventilation shaft just right to destroy the DS's reactor was so vanishingly small it required someone with special talents to accomplish (if you remember, only two rebel fighters could even try and Han called the shot one in a million). Tarkin was justified in not being overly worried.

Oh no, part of an original trilogy movie was stupid (ZOMG!). It's NOT the perfect holy text and infallible word of God that fanboys have been fooling themselves into thinking for decades!

It was stupid, deal with it. Even if the Rebel fighters weren't even attacking, even if the Rebels fighters were simply running the hell away, Tarkin was a negligent idiot for not sending a swarm of TIE fighters out to intercept or capture them.

And you know what? BIG DEAL. I can admit that piece of stupidity, and still like ANH. Because I don't need to delude myself about a movie I like, the way some of you guys do. I'm not trying to use something as trivial as whether I like or dislike a movie to pretend that I'm better or smarter than other people.

Wow, you just keep getting stupider. Just stop posting.

Everyone else, perhaps it's time to stop feeding the troll at this point.

Oh man, what a brilliant comeback. Just a notch above the infamous kindergarten "I know you are but what am I!" Your lack of any real response is telling. Although it isn't telling me anything new, because this dumb thread has gone nowhere in over a dozen pages.

I admire the tenacity of the prequel defenders becoming so desperate to win this argument that they're throwing the OT under the bus to do it.

Oh yeah, it's so "desperate" to point out that Tarkin was a total moron, whose actions can't be explained by anything other than laziness and arrogance. What's desperate is the fact that you would actually dispute this.

Why does this thread still exist?

Good question, for once. Although the answer was made pretty clear oh, I don't know, 17 or 18 pages ago?

If it were *any* other topic, it would have been HoS'd or locked by page 10 at the latest. I guess the debating rules don't apply when you're trying to support the holy cow. whoknew?

Haha, what's this now? While I agree that this thread is utterly lame, it's also lame to allude to imaginary and unspecified rules while playing the victim. Oh yeah, the big bad prequel apologists in charge of this forum are abusing their power to protect the "holy cow" that is TPM. EPISODE ONE. The movie that you guys have been grasping at straws to find fault with for over 20 pages.

What's that I keep saying, about delusion and a lack of self-awareness? Anyway, this last page was even more pointless than usual. I guess I'll check in on you guys in another few days?

[Bakustra]

Jimmy, you're lying again. Nobody has said the things that you are attributing to them about Tarkin. Please don't lie. You're also lying about people deluding themselves into thinking they're smarter than you. Frankly, Jimmy, you're deluding yourself into thinking you qualify as sapient.

You're also failing to understand the criticisms people have, again. Oni is considering you as breaking Debating Rule 4, which tells people not to repeat themselves over and over again. Two moderators are cool with your repeated criminal stupidity, so whatever, but it's just another example of you being a liar. Frankly, I wish you were a troll.

[Thanas]

For the record: I personally think TPM is the worst Star Wars movie ever. It sucked, it was just plain not fun and I'd rather watch the Republican National Convention than that drivel. I will never buy merchandise of it, nor will I ever buy it on DVD. I don't like the movie, its pacing, its nonexistent internal logic, the directing, and its questionable choice of plot (or that should be plodding). Heck, some EU books are better than it. No, scratch that: TPM is so bad the vast majority of EU is better.

Just wanted to get this out of the way before anybody (not you, Bakustra, we're cool) comes in and goes all "BAD TPM FANBOY" on me.

[Thanas]

Which is why 2 gets a pass and 3 at least has a huge space battle - plus Order 66 was at least decently done. I'd rate them as V, IV, VI, III, II, I.

The problem of I is IMO more padding and bad pacing. Aside from Darth Maul there is no real good villain there, no sense of danger etc.

[Knife]

I personally think Ep I suffers from too much focus on a boring Anakin. Qui Gon and Obi Wan, along with Padme were actually quite fun, if a bit campy. Ep I failed for me with Anakin, and the already mentioned Pod Race, not that the Pod Race wasn't purdy in it's CGI, but I'd rather get back to following the adventures of Qui Gon. So... fuck the taxes and motivations for Gunray, it was the motivations and plot with Anakin that made Ep I the bottom of the SW list for me.

All that said, at the end of the day, it was an OK campy space opera.

[DudeGuyMan]

All I know is the prequels made bags of cash, and got better reviews than the OT did as of their original releases to boot. (Go look. TPM got better reviews than ESB. LOL.) But there's a cadre of butthurt anti-fanboys who desperately want to believe "everyone" hated them, to the point that they'll watch some fat neckbeard's longer-than-the-movies critique full of rape jokes and pretend that stupid questions like "Gee why DIDN'T two Jedi singlehandedly kill the thousands of droids on that ship in the beginning?" are legitimate and not just trolling.

I know you didn't like the movie, prequel haters. Nobody else really cares. Quit being obsessive and deranged. You can pretend that you're not, but I don't see any nineteen-hour long internet critiques of Dr. Doolittle 2 (or whatever dumbass movie of the last 10 years you prefer) garnering cults of sweaty fanboys waiting to start million-page threadnaughts when some other crazy nerd like Raynor dares to rebut them.

A normal person who just happens to think the Star Wars prequels suck can name dozens of movies they dislike and doesn't spend much time thinking about any of them. A butthurt anti-fanboy runs around the internet trying to convince the world that it didn't really like a movie that came out 12 years ago.

Except as far as I can tell, any movie that doesn't have people like that shrieking that their precious childhood has been raped is doomed to flop.

Peace out bitches!

*Hops on Harley, rides into sunset*

[VF5SS]

^ 4/10 be moar insecure plz :3

anywayz

All I know is the prequels made bags of cash, and got better reviews than the OT did as of their original releases to boot.

Camply sci-fi movies getting bad reviews before them became cultural icons? My word, what has come over America? Not that I pretend to know what goes on inside the heads of movie critics (my job is toys, ya dig?), but we have at least seen fairly consistent issues with video game critics giving more positive reviews to Triple A titles than to lower budget also rans. In fact, an old NES game called Gimmick received very poor scores (save for one guy) while a forgettable bowling game scored higher. These days, people regard the game as a massive technical achievement in terms design, presentation, control, and challenge. Of course it was an unbranded platformer by Sunsoft whom were more known for their licensed games. I don't believe all film critics are corrupt and bound by money, but people's perceptions about movies can change over time. A review is usually a one-time thing written around the premiere of the film. It can take more time to digest what you have seen. Sometimes you need to get by with a little help from internet friends to further realize and articulate some niggling thought inside your head.

But there's a cadre of butthurt anti-fanboys who desperately want to believe "everyone" hated them, to the point that they'll watch some fat neckbeard's longer-than-the-movies critique full of rape jokes and pretend that stupid questions like "Gee why DIDN'T two Jedi singlehandedly kill the thousands of droids on that ship in the beginning?" are legitimate and not just trolling.

So you don't read the thread or watch the reviews I see. None of the those reviews are longer than the movies. In fact they're much better paced than the movies themselves.

Now I do take issue with the complaint about the Jedi not just mowing through Battle Droids. You see the movie repeatedly demonstrates that the Battle Droids are nearly worthless at killing people save for the Drooooooidekaaaaaahs. It's one of the major problems in the movie, because it fails to create any palpable tension during scenes of them running from Droids. Each time the Jedi encounter Battle Droids, it's usually a minor inconvenience on their part. In fact, we see Qui Gin and Obi-wan literally leap into the fray with some, slay them all, and save the hostages. Yeah it's an action movie, but even Princess Leia got the good guy approved flesh wound a few times.

So yeah, it is a legitimate question but you don't care cause you are too cool for this thread.

I know you didn't like the movie, prequel haters. Nobody else really cares. Quit being obsessive and deranged. You can pretend that you're not, but I don't see any nineteen-hour long internet critiques of Dr. Doolittle 2 (or whatever dumbass movie of the last 10 years you prefer) garnering cults of sweaty fanboys waiting to start million-page threadnaughts when some other crazy nerd like Raynor dares to rebut them.

Jeez mang, so I guess Jim and Elfdart are nobodies? Well I'm sure they feel hurt by that :c

A normal person who just happens to think the Star Wars prequels suck can name dozens of movies they dislike and doesn't spend much time thinking about any of them. A butthurt anti-fanboy runs around the internet trying to convince the world that it didn't really like a movie that came out 12 years ago.

Now you're hurting SFdebris's feelings when he makes his 40 minute reviews of Trek and other popular movies. Why you gotta hate so much?

Except as far as I can tell, any movie that doesn't have people like that shrieking that their precious childhood has been raped is [url=http://c181301.r1.cf0.rackcdn.com/NEco6 ... gd_1_2.jpg]doomed to flop

I think that's a gross oversimplification of why those movies failed. But anyway, lots of films considered to be "cult classics" can find their audience in the home video market sometimes years after they have made their video run. Long time success these days is not solely measured by box office takes.

Peace out bitches!

Thank you for gracing us with your presence in the thread you don't care anything about. You are my hero~

[Stark]

How many people have actually watched that silly RLM video anyway? I don't need fat people to tell me what's wrong with a shitty movie like TPM, and it's pretty bizarre that even people who like it would think so.

Maybe it's just easier to act like everyone who says something you don't like is some kind of cultist.

[Bakustra]

To add on to what Veef said, It's a Wonderful Life and Citizen Kane took decades for appreciation of them to build to where they were considered classics. Dickens was considered a pop-writer in his day, as was Shakespeare in his. It can take time for people to fully appreciate things- that's why the classics generally take decades to add new members. Tolkien only became canonical in the last decade. Too, Star Wars was a distinct and different cultural phenomenon- a revival of the old serials in feature format, a genuinely fresh approach to science-fiction (at the time- remember that the studios thought its main competition would be Damnation Alley, a butchery of a Zelazny short story) that focused on the adventure possible rather than the science (thus earning it the enmity of a thousand "true fans" of sci-fi). Critics didn't know what to do with it, and it quickly became ridiculously popular.

But your snide little chart is really saying that "Niche films with niche budgets and niche advertising make niche amounts of money, while big-budget films with big advertising budgets make lots of money" which nobody even brought up. I certainly wouldn't dispute it, but I have to question whether, for example, Fantasia and Pinocchio and Bambi are all so much worse than Saludos Amigos, Three Caballeros, Melody Time, and Dumbo, as "net and gross income are a sure definition of quality" would imply. What do you think- oh, oh, you've declared that you're running away, and surely the dog does not return to his vomit.

[Channel72]

All I know is the prequels made bags of cash, and got better reviews than the OT did as of their original releases to boot.

So... what's the argument here, then? That in 2019 The Phantom Menace is going to be considered an all-time classic like A New Hope was in 1999? Yeah... that seems very likely.

[Elfdart]

He lied? Where?

Where do you want me to start?

An actual quote would be a start. Just because you and Stoklassa's other groupies accuse him of lying doesn't make it so. So you can either produce the quote in context or this is just projection on your part.

How many people have actually watched that silly RLM video anyway? I don't need fat people to tell me what's wrong with a shitty movie like TPM, and it's pretty bizarre that even people who like it would think so.

Please take your strawman and shove it up your ass sideways you trolling douchebag.

Maybe it's just easier to act like everyone who says something you don't like is some kind of cultist.

And maybe it's easier for dickheads like you to troll threads, offer nothing useful to the discussion and argue against claims no one else has made.

Why does this thread still exist?

Because you and Heathcliff's other cockgoblins provide the richest source of idiotic and dishonest horseshit this board has seen since the days when Darkstar used to post here.

I would have thought that after one of the Red Letter Retards had claimed in a previous thread that TPM was a "failure" because nineteen movies in human history did better at the box office that Stoklassholes would have thought twice before pimping his latest YouTube abortion. This is not the case.

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

He lied? Where?

Where do you want me to start?

An actual quote would be a start. Just because you and Stoklassa's other groupies accuse him of lying doesn't make it so. So you can either produce the quote in context or this is just projection on your part.

HAHAHAHAHA. You've got to be fucking kidding me. Seriously you're good, Elfdart. I thought for a while you were retarded but you MUST be pulling some Andy Kaufman shit. There is no way someone would respond demanding quotes to a post that actually had quotation marks signifying a quote. If you are for realz that's awesome. I want to be you, because you're literally incapable of cognitive thought. Which I'm sure would make TPM an amazing movie.

Here I'll do it again, I'm curious if you process the information. I'll even put in a quote box for you and highlight some of the important parts.

Here's one, how about [Raynor] continuing to claim everyone criticizing TPM were "spewing nonsense about negating a blockade by forcing everyone to hunt animals or eat unmentioned stocks of MREs"

To simplify even further for you... I've never once mentioned hunting and yet Raynor accuses me of such. That makes him a lair. Is it clear enough now?

I would have thought that after one of the Red Letter Retards had claimed in a previous thread that TPM was a "failure" because nineteen movies in human history did better at the box office that Stoklassholes would have thought twice before pimping his latest YouTube abortion. This is not the case.

Haha, oh yeah I forgot about that argument. You're still an idiot, but now I understand why. You're actually a genius comedian. I should have known from the hilarious puns you use. In poker we call that a "tell"

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

All I know is the prequels made bags of cash, and got better reviews than the OT did as of their original releases to boot. (Go look. TPM got better reviews than ESB. LOL.) But there's a cadre of butthurt anti-fanboys who desperately want to believe "everyone" hated them, to the point that they'll watch some fat neckbeard's longer-than-the-movies critique full of rape jokes and pretend that stupid questions like "Gee why DIDN'T two Jedi singlehandedly kill the thousands of droids on that ship in the beginning?" are legitimate and not just trolling.

I know you didn't like the movie, prequel haters. Nobody else really cares. Quit being obsessive and deranged. You can pretend that you're not, but I don't see any nineteen-hour long internet critiques of Dr. Doolittle 2 (or whatever dumbass movie of the last 10 years you prefer) garnering cults of sweaty fanboys waiting to start million-page threadnaughts when some other crazy nerd like Raynor dares to rebut them.

A normal person who just happens to think the Star Wars prequels suck can name dozens of movies they dislike and doesn't spend much time thinking about any of them. A butthurt anti-fanboy runs around the internet trying to convince the world that it didn't really like a movie that came out 12 years ago.

Except as far as I can tell, any movie that doesn't have people like that shrieking that their precious childhood has been raped is doomed to flop.

Peace out bitches!

*Hops on Harley, rides into sunset*

Oh man you nailed it! That shit was tight. First, how the fuck did you know I was on a doolittle board too? You got like jedi mind reading ability and shit. Money and early reviews are the true fucking test of whats good, not what stands the test of shitty ass time. Who gives a fuck what perspective gives us on a movie? Not me. Like that movie Titanic no body has shitty ass midnight screenings of that because it was so fucking good! We watched it a bunch and then put it on the shelf where it belongs. Just like 1982, everyone knows Tootsie is a far better movie than The Thing and Blade Runner. A) It made fuck tons more money. 2) It won like Oscars and got great reviews that would make TPM's dick hard! Who gives a fuck if Blade Runner changed the style of sci-fi for the next 30 year? Not me. Give me that lovable Hoffman in drag any day.

Now if you excuse me I have to go to my Tootsie message board and defend it from some assholes that think its a trite sexist comedy. They obviously don't know how much money it made.

[Jim Raynor]

Jimmy, you're lying again. Nobody has said the things that you are attributing to them about Tarkin.

Funny how "nobody has said the things" that I directly quoted from their posts! If you want to call me on something, point out the specifics instead of making lame unsubstantiated claims.

You're also lying about people deluding themselves into thinking they're smarter than you.

Who are you trying to fool man?

This entire thread is filled with pseudointellectuals, armchair filmmakers, and wannabe film critics grasping at straws to find fault with the movie. Insulting me for not agreeing with them, even as they make an ever-growing list of comically ignorant statements.

You can hunt animals to nullify a blockade's effects. Jamming during a military attack needs to be explained. Tarkin wasn't a fool, and I'm "throwing the original trilogy under a bus" if I point out the obvious fact that he was. I truly am an idiot for not being onboard with such intelligent and insightful thoughts.

You're also failing to understand the criticisms people have, again. Oni is considering you as breaking Debating Rule 4, which tells people not to repeat themselves over and over again.

I'm responding to new posts in my own, with direct quotes. I repeat the stuff that you guys won't recant. After whining hard and long about me calling you guys on that blockade stupidity, one of you guys came back and defended it again!

Two moderators are cool with your repeated criminal stupidity, so whatever

Too bad for you that you're not a mod.

[Jim Raynor]

Tarkin's actions during the Battle of Yavin truly were inexplicable and stupid.

They are actually very easy to explain. Indeed, the movie did it for us. "evacuate, in our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances."

He absolutely believed victory was coming and he wanted to see it himself, not run away from it.


Somewhere around page 52, I posted a worksheet that my superior intuition and intelligence gathered from watching television. This worksheet was meant to help us identify well developed characters.

Stop showing off. I don't care if you think you have "superior intuition and intelligence"...from WATCHING TV (rofl). I don't care if you put up your own little "workheet" and grasp at straws to explain why Tarkin was justified and not being a stupid movie villain. He was an idiot, plain and simple.

Part of the Death Star's capabilities is all the TIE fighters onboard. Not using them is like a Navy carrier group not launching fighters, because they've got ship-based missiles and guns. It doesn't matter if Tarkin thinks he can win in one stroke, the fact is he's unnecessarily being inefficient and lazy. What if the Rebel fighters just LEFT Yavin? What if Rebel TRANSPORTS carrying their leaders just left Yavin, instead of risking death by staying there (oh no, more stupidity)?

Shouldn't the Imperial Navy be aware of their heavy turbolasers' capabilities, and know that it's hopeless to try to shoot down small fighters with them? What good reason is there for Tarkin to allow the Rebels to strafe the Death Star again and again, causing surface damage and killing his own people?

God, just stop man. I shouldn't even have to explain this to you. Stop embarassing yourself and adding to the growing list of hilariously moronic claims from you and your friends.

[Bakustra]

No, you're pretty obviously dumber than me, because you literally can't parse my posts, and I am not so arrogant as to think I'm smarter than anybody else except you and Elfy.

Now then, Jimmy, let me put it to you what you missed in your sheer stupidity. See, there's a little thing called implications. See, nobody was suggesting that the problem with TPM is that the Trade Federation are dumbasses, so bringing up Tarkin being dumb is a) a non-sequitur and b) demonstrates a failure to understand what people are objecting to you. So I want you to explain how your puke about Tarkin supports what you say it supports, that people only think the prequels are bad because they're obsessed with a single man on the internet. That is what your arguments all add up to. Support them, or don't, and be forever remembered as the man who would write 108 pages of nitpicking and failed to grasp anything larger.

EDIT: Also, you're obviously too goddamn stupid to realize that adr isn't being serious. Jesus fuck, how do you remember to breathe? Does mommy have to wire your jaw open to keep you from dying?

[Jim Raynor]

Because you and Heathcliff's other cockgoblins provide the richest source of idiotic and dishonest horseshit this board has seen since the days when Darkstar used to post here.

I said it before, but the RLM supporters and hardcore prequel bashers are their worst enemies. They denounced Stoklasa's review more than I ever did, with their excuse about the whole thing being "stupid comedy" (some help that was). Now they seem intent on embarassing themselves.

Pretty sad when someone puts so much of their self value in their personal taste in movies (or God help them, somebody else's stupid rambling review of a movie) that they'll say anything to carry on.

[Jim Raynor]

Bakustra, your arrogance and attempts at bluster are so amusing.

No, you're pretty obviously dumber than me, because you literally can't parse my posts,

Posts where you claim I can't process fiction or some crap because I think that a small MacGuffin doesn't need to be spelled out? Posts like your last few pointless pieces of trash talk?

Now then, Jimmy, let me put it to you what you missed in your sheer stupidity. See, there's a little thing called implications. See, nobody was suggesting that the problem with TPM is that the Trade Federation are dumbasses

Please, somebody actually said them acting stupid "needs to be explained" or some crap, despite REAL people acting stupid in real life.

And of course, the REAL BIG problem that you guys just keep demanding for twenty something pages now is that the movie didn't put in one throwaway line to spell out the stupid taxes.

so bringing up Tarkin being dumb is a) a non-sequitur and b) demonstrates a failure to understand what people are objecting to you. So I want you to explain how your puke about Tarkin supports what you say it supports,

My point was that movie villains are stupid all the time, including in Star Wars. That prequel bashers and original trilogy worshippers never want to apply consistent standards. And lo and behold, a bunch of you actually started straining for reasons why Tarkin TOTALLY wasn't being a moron.

[Bakustra]

A bunch? It was one fucking known tryhard, Metahive. I responded by pointing out that Tarkin being arrogant is tangential to the problem of the Trade Federation lacking motivation. That's why I say that you're unable to parse my posts- because you fail to grasp that this is about the Trade Federation lacking motivation for the things they do. Tarkin has a clear motivation, which he fails to accomplish because of his arrogance. The Trade Federation can never get to that step, because they have no motivation! Now, I realize you have a problem with parsing Tom Clancy novels, let alone picture books, but I don't know how to make it clearer, apart from drawing upon A Clockwork Orange for inspiration.

[Jim Raynor]

A bunch? It was one fucking known tryhard, Metahive.

And Destructionator. And probably Galvatron, saying that I was supposedly throwing the OT under a bus for pointing out a simple fact. Nice try.

I responded by pointing out that Tarkin being arrogant is tangential to the problem of the Trade Federation lacking motivation.

LOL, now you circle around right back to the same stupid thing that was already hashed out twenty pages ago. Their motivation is simple. Settle the matter of the tax dispute. The motivation isn't important, it's their actions in the present (escalation to armed conflict) that matters. Just like it often is in real wars.

Don't think the Trade Fed are compelling villains? Big deal, that's your opinion. They're not my favorite villains either. But when several people here keep whining long and hard about how impossible it was to understand, I'm going to call them on it.

[Bakustra]

If only your father shot blanks as well.

That said, this is what you're claiming is Destructionator saying that Tarkin's actions are paragons of logical reasoning:

They are actually very easy to explain. Indeed, the movie did it for us. "evacuate, in our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances."

He absolutely believed victory was coming and he wanted to see it himself, not run away from it.

If you want to make your last stand at "Tarkin's actions are completely inexplicable", I welcome that. I always love it when liars open themselves up to harm. Perhaps you're actually dumb enough to be talked into jumping in front of a bus- you somehow interpreted "The Trade Federation lacks motivation" as "The Phantom Menace is impossible to understand!!!!", so there are pretty good odds on ridding the world of a pathological liar through his own stupidity.

Finally, if you're going to go full solipsist and declare that it's just, like, your opinion, man, whether a movie's good or not, or whether the Trade Federation are good characters and villains or not, then you still have a massive pdf to explain away, so no escaping that way, Jimmy.

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

Insulting me for not agreeing with them, even as they make an ever-growing list of comically ignorant statements.

No one is insulting you for not agreeing with them. We're insulting you because you seem to have an inability to connect the action characters take with their motivation. You don't think the TFs actions need to match their motivation, fine, but then show us an example from another movie (book, comic, fucking radio play) that proves your point. You tried with Tarkin and you failed because everything he does on screen relates to his motivation.

DXIII and others have cited countless examples. Go ahead you give it a shot

I repeat the stuff that you guys won't recant.

Feel free to conceded that you don't know what or who the taxes are for then.

Please, somebody actually said them acting stupid "needs to be explained" or some crap, despite REAL people acting stupid in real life.

Do you know how movies work? Here's an example, people shit in real life, is that something we should see in every movie? Not unless it helps establish something about their character. If lucas wants dumb characters it makes for good writing when we know WHY they are being dumb. ie Over confidence in the death star and not knowing a Jedi could hit a port the size of a womp rat (see Tarkin, what a fucking moron)

then you still have a massive pdf to explain away, so no escaping that way, Jimmy

He was defending lucas's honor. RLM said some thing that were mean. That's different then saying a movie sucks dick and was only made for merchandising deals.

[Gunhead]

I'm going to take something back. I said Tarkin shouldn't have let those plans leave the DS, except he had to. He approved Vaders plan to let our heroes escape on the purpose of finding the rebel base. The only thing that would give Leia reason to go to the rebel base were the plans and if she didn't have those, well what's the rush. This is something Tarkin deducted correctly btw. Leia guessed / reasoned correctly they are being tracked and went directly with the plans to Yavin IV. In fact you could call Leia pretty stupid, more so than Tarkin. Leia didn't know they would find a weakness and just gambled on the fact and even after they did find a weakness it was immediately doubted by the pilots and basically the rebels were forced into trying to hit it because Leia had allready led the DS to the base. On the other hand.. if neither Vader or Tarkin knew the DS plans were on the the station with any certainty and they did just speculate on the fact, well then letting Leia go is something of a risk since there's no guarantee she'll lead them to the rebel base.

I don't get all this Tarkin bashing, again, hindsight is allways 20/20. everything was going his way right up to the point when Han showed up and threw a massive wrench into the gears. He didn't evacuate sure, but why would he have? The rebels got a shot at the weakspot and it didn't work and you can't go declaring it was your win if you shy away at the last moment because there is some theoretical risk. You go to battle, there's a risk and in this case, and I guess I need to point this out again, the risk was tiny. Everything Tarkin maybe could have done better he would have needed to do before the battle started and this is again wild speculation territory, unless you count some crappy EU source and I sure as hell don't. So, rather than just wailing "Tarkin was soo st00pid", I'd like to see what exactly he could have done better and do this remembering that his plan worked.. right up to the point Han messed it up allowing Luke to blow up the whole station.

If you want stupid, go look at the AoTC. Specially the battle at geonosis. I really liked the masterfull plan of "Lets infiltrate the enemy base and reveal our presence by waving lightsticks around without doing anything to transform the battlefield to our advantage so we can get shot to pieces and get rescued by an untested army at the last minute". I wonder did Windu consult his magic 8-ball or the voices in his head when he came up with that "plan"? Then again considering how he got so many jedi to go along with it, stupid must be a contagious disease in SW.

-Gunhead

[Channel72]

The fact that Raynor even BRINGS UP Tarkin's stupidity/arrogance as some kind of "counterpoint" to the criticism being raised against the Trade Federation shows that Raynor is SO far from understanding what's going on in this thread, I'm afraid it may be hopeless to even continue.

Raynor, are you actually reading posts? Would you please care to take the time to briefly summarize the argument you think people are making here? You seem to be constantly attacking a strawman, even after 20+ pages of people basically repeating the same argument.

[Agent Sorchus]

You know what? This thread is circling the drain inside one of the least viewed parts of the board, wherein only those with a strong interest in this take part.

Would it not be better if this were over in a more definitive manner? Why not take it to The Coliseum with a champion for both sides, rather than draw this out into the next year (like it seems to be if it continues this way).