Georgetown Students Study SAC....

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Georgetown Students Study SAC....

Post by MKSheppard »

..no, not Strategic Air Command; but something almost as fun: the Chinese Second Artillery Corps.

In China, the ARMY controls ballistic weapons as long range artillery as it should be.

Anyway, before we dive into the link, there's the usual derision of open sourced intelligence like this by the usual suspects at Union of Concerned Scientists and Federation of American Scientists deriding these guys, calling their methodology lazy and incompetent, because they looked into Chinese language bloggers and other open sources, including a Chinese TV Drama about the Second Artillery Corps...which is par for the course for UCS and FAS.

They've long been able to get away with what they have due to the semi closed nature of world militaries until recently. But now with increasing amounts of information on the internets and Google Earth + Google Translate; you can perform analysis almost as well as a professional gun counter for the DIA; it's just that you will take a lot longer to do it than a team of gun counters; and with lower resolution imagery and without up to date images.

A good example would be the recent 'explosions' in Iran -- we quickly gained confirmation because it's now relatively cheap enough to order a pass by a commercial satellite company by a non-governmental organization:

Image

There's a LOT of information floating around there on the internet -- it's just locked behind the language wall in the Chinese Language.

I once had someone who works at MSFC ask me if I was FCI (Foreign Counterintelligence) because I was unusually up to date on Chinese heavy space launcher developments. My answer was much more prosaic -- I was just a civilian who read a lot of stuff at China-Defense.com.

CDF is awesome, BTW. Every few days there's a couple more photos of Varyag or the J-20 from Chinese language forums which get reposted onto CDF.

So back onto the topic of the article:

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Image that goes with Article
Georgetown students shed light on China’s tunnel system for nuclear weapons
By William Wan, Published: November 29

The Chinese have called it their “Underground Great Wall” — a vast network of tunnels designed to hide their country’s increasingly sophisticated missile and nuclear arsenal.

For the past three years, a small band of obsessively dedicated students at Georgetown University has called it something else: homework.

Led by their hard-charging professor, a former top Pentagon official, they have translated hundreds of documents, combed through satellite imagery, obtained restricted Chinese military documents and waded through hundreds of gigabytes of online data.

The result of their effort? The largest body of public knowledge about thousands of miles of tunnels dug by the Second Artillery Corps, a secretive branch of the Chinese military in charge of protecting and deploying its ballistic missiles and nuclear warheads.

The study is yet to be released, but already it has sparked a congressional hearing and been circulated among top officials in the Pentagon, including the Air Force vice chief of staff.

Most of the attention has focused on the 363-page study’s provocative conclusion — that China’s nuclear arsenal could be many times larger than the well-established estimates of arms-control experts.

“It’s not quite a bombshell, but those thoughts and estimates are being checked against what people think they know based on classified information,” said a Defense Department strategist who would discuss the study only on the condition of anonymity.

The study’s critics, however, have questioned the unorthodox Internet-based research of the students, who drew from sources as disparate as Google Earth, blogs, military journals and, perhaps most startlingly, a fictionalized TV docudrama about Chinese artillery soldiers — the rough equivalent of watching Fox’s TV show “24” for insights into U.S. counterterrorism efforts.

But the strongest condemnation has come from nonproliferation experts who worry that the study could fuel arguments for maintaining nuclear weapons in an era when efforts are being made to reduce the world’s post-Cold War stockpiles.

Beyond its impact in the policy world, the project has made a profound mark on the students — including some who have since graduated and taken research jobs with the Defense Department and Congress.

“I don’t even want to know how many hours I spent on it,” said Nick Yarosh, 22, an international politics senior at Georgetown. “But you ask people what they did in college, most just say I took this class, I was in this club. I can say I spent it reading Chinese nuclear strategy and Second Artillery manuals. For a nerd like me, that really means something.”

For students, an obsession

The students’ professor, Phillip A. Karber, 65, had spent the Cold War as a top strategist reporting directly to the secretary of defense and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. But it was his early work in defense that cemented his reputation, when he led an elite research team created by Henry Kissinger, who was then the national security adviser, to probe the weaknesses of Soviet forces.

Karber prided himself on recruiting the best intelligence analysts in the government. “You didn’t just want the highest-ranking or brightest guys, you wanted the ones who were hungry,” he said.

In 2008, Karber was volunteering on a committee for the Defense Threat Reduction Agency, a Pentagon agency charged with countering weapons of mass destruction.

After a devastating earthquake struck Sichuan province, the chairman of Karber’s committee noticed Chinese news accounts reporting that thousands of radiation technicians were rushing to the region. Then came pictures of strangely collapsed hills and speculation that the caved-in tunnels in the area had held nuclear weapons.

Find out what’s going on, the chairman asked Karber, who began looking for analysts again — this time among his students at Georgetown.

The first inductees came from his arms-control classes. Each semester, he set aside a day to show them tantalizing videos and documents he had begun gathering on the tunnels. Then he concluded with a simple question: What do you think it means?

“The fact that there were no answers to that really got to me,” said former student Dustin Walker, 22. “It started out like any other class, tests on this day or that, but people kept coming back, even after graduation. . . . We spent hours on our own outside of class on this stuff.”

The students worked in their dorms translating military texts. They skipped movie nights for marathon sessions reviewing TV clips of missiles being moved from one tunnel structure to another. While their friends read Shakespeare, they gathered in the library to war-game worst-case scenarios of a Chinese nuclear strike on the United States.

Over time, the team grew from a handful of contributors to roughly two dozen. Most spent their time studying the subterranean activities of the Second Artillery Corps.

While the tunnels’ existence was something of an open secret among the handful of experts studying China’s nuclear arms, almost no papers or public reports on the structures existed.

So the students turned to publicly available Chinese sources — military journals, local news reports and online photos posted by Chinese citizens. It helped that China’s famously secretive military was beginning to release more information, driven by its leaders’ eagerness to show off China’s growing power to its citizens.

The Internet also generated a raft of leads: new military forums, blogs and once-obscure local TV reports now posted on the Chinese equivalents of YouTube. Strategic string searches even allowed the students to get behind some military Web sites and download documents such as syllabuses taught at China’s military academies.

Drudgery and discoveries

The main problem was the sheer amount of translation required.

Each semester, Karber managed to recruit only one or two Chinese-speaking students. So the team assembled a makeshift system to scan images of the books and documents they found. Using text-capture software, they converted those pictures into Chinese characters, which were fed into translation software to produce crude English versions. From those, they highlighted key passages for finer translation by the Chinese speakers.

The downside was the drudgery — hours feeding pages into the scanner. The upside was that after three years, the students had compiled a searchable database of more than 1.4 million words on the Second Artillery and its tunnels.

By combining everything they found in the journals, video clips, satellite imagery and photos, they were able to triangulate the location of several tunnel structures, with a rough idea of what types of missiles were stored in each.

Their work also yielded smaller revelations: how the missiles were kept mobile and transported from structure to structure, as well as tantalizing images and accounts of a “missile train” and disguised passenger rail cars to move China’s long-range missiles.

To facilitate the work, Karber set up research rooms for the students at his home in Great Falls. He bought Apple computers and large flat-screen monitors for their video work and obtained small research grants for those who wanted to work through the summer. When work ran late, many crashed in his basement’s spare room.

“I got fat working on this thing because I didn’t go to the gym anymore. It was that intense,” said Yarosh, who has continued on the project this year not for credit but purely as a hobby. “It’s not the typical college course. Dr. Karber just tells you the objective and gives you total freedom to figure out how to get there. That level of trust can be liberating.”

Some of the biggest breakthroughs came after members of Karber’s team used personal connections in China to obtain a 400-page manual produced by the Second Artillery and usually available only to China’s military personnel.

Another source of insight was a pair of semi-fictionalized TV series chronicling the lives of Second Artillery soldiers.

The plots were often overwrought with melodrama — one series centers on a brigade commander who struggles to whip his slipshod unit into shape while juggling relationship problems with his glamorous Olympic-swim-coach girlfriend. But they also included surprisingly accurate depictions of artillery units’ procedures that lined up perfectly with the military manual and other documents.

“Until someone showed us on screen how exactly these missile deployments were done from the tunnels, we only had disparate pieces. The TV shows gave us the big picture of how it all worked together,” Karber said.

A bigger Chinese arsenal?

In December 2009, just as the students began making progress, the Chinese military admitted for the first time that the Second Artillery had indeed been building a network of tunnels. According to a report by state-run CCTV, China had more than 3,000 miles of tunnels — roughly the distance between Boston and San Francisco — including deep underground bases that could withstand multiple nuclear attacks.

The news shocked Karber and his team. It confirmed the direction of their research, but it also highlighted how little attention the tunnels were garnering outside East Asia.

The lack of interest, particularly in the U.S. media, demonstrated China’s unique position in the world of nuclear arms.

For decades, the focus has been on the two powers with the largest nuclear stockpiles by far — the United States, with 5,000 warheads available for deployment, and Russia, which has 8,000.

But of the five nuclear weapons states recognized by the Non-Proliferation Treaty, China has been the most secretive. While the United States and Russia are bound by bilateral treaties that require on-site inspections, disclosure of forces and bans on certain missiles, China is not.

The assumption for years has been that the Chinese arsenal is relatively small — anywhere from 80 to 400 warheads.

China has encouraged that perception. As the only one of the five original nuclear states with a no-first-use policy, it insists that it keeps a small stockpile only for “minimum deterrence.”

Given China’s lack of transparency, Karber argues, all the experts have to work with are assumptions, which can often be dead wrong. As an example, Karber often recounts to his students his experience of going to Russia with former defense secretary Frank C. Carlucci to discuss U.S. help in securing the Russian nuclear arsenal.

The United States had offered Russia about 20,000 canisters designed to safeguard warheads — a number based on U.S. estimates at the time.

The generals told Karber they needed 40,000.

Skepticism among analysts

At the end of the tunnel study, Karber cautions that the same could happen with China. Based on the number of tunnels the Second Artillery is digging and its increasing deployment of missiles, he argues, China’s nuclear warheads could number as many as 3,000.

It is an assertion that has provoked heated responses from the arms-control community.

Gregory Kulacki, a China nuclear analyst at the Union of Concerned Scientists, publicly condemned Karber’s report at a recent lecture in Washington. In an interview afterward, he called the 3,000 figure “ridiculous” and said the study’s methodology — especially its inclusion of posts from Chinese bloggers — was “incompetent and lazy.”

“The fact that they’re building tunnels could actually reinforce the exact opposite point,” he argued. “With more tunnels and a better chance of survivability, they may think they don’t need as many warheads to strike back.”

Reaction from others has been more moderate.

“Their research has value, but it also shows the danger of the Internet,” said Hans M. Kristensen of the Federation of American Scientists. Kristensen faulted some of the students’ interpretation of the satellite images.

“One thing his report accomplishes, I think, is it highlights the uncertainty about what China has,” said Mark Stokes, executive director of the Project 2049 Institute, a think tank. “There’s no question China’s been investing in tunnels, and to look at those efforts and pose this question is worthwhile.”

This year, the Defense Department’s annual report on China’s military highlighted for the first time the Second Artillery’s work on new tunnels, partly a result of Karber’s report, according to some Pentagon officials. And in the spring, shortly before a visit to China, some in the office of then-Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates were briefed on the study.

“I think it’s fair to say senior officials here have keyed upon the importance of this work,” said one Pentagon officer who was not authorized to speak on the record.

For Karber, provoking such debate means that he and his small army of undergrads have succeeded.

“I don’t have the slightest idea how many nuclear weapons China really has, but neither does anyone else in the arms-control community,” he said. “That’s the problem with China — no one really knows except them.”
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Re: Georgetown Students Study SAC....

Post by Pelranius »

Maybe the Chinese are intending to store their ABM assets in those tunnels?
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Re: Georgetown Students Study SAC....

Post by Phantasee »

Ahhh I was just about to post this!

I think it's interesting that so much is out there now. Do you think the Chinese will be alarmed by how much can be deduced from open sources?
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Re: Georgetown Students Study SAC....

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Not really. They probably do a lot of deduction on their own from open source-available intel on other nations. I doubt they would be surprised that people could find things out about their own programs from non-classified information circulating out there.
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Re: Georgetown Students Study SAC....

Post by Lonestar »

Phantasee wrote:Ahhh I was just about to post this!

I think it's interesting that so much is out there now. Do you think the Chinese will be alarmed by how much can be deduced from open sources?
Speaking purely hypothetically...


...Let's say, hypothetically, a US Intelligence agency has a list of POIs in the Chinese MIC. Let's also say, again hypothetically, they've matched a lot of these names to various internet handles, and again, hypothetically, part of the daily "OSINT Drag" are pulls from chinese messageboards that are used by the POIs...because Chinese nerds tend to be like nerds everywhere else, and post on messageboards that debate about star trek and star wars.


And of course, hypothetically, the Chinese would probably do something similar.
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Re: Georgetown Students Study SAC....

Post by Uraniun235 »

Phantasee wrote:Ahhh I was just about to post this!

I think it's interesting that so much is out there now. Do you think the Chinese will be alarmed by how much can be deduced from open sources?
On the other hand, maybe they'd encourage it so that they can manipulate the conclusions of others by disseminating false data?
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Re: Georgetown Students Study SAC....

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Uraniun235 wrote:
Phantasee wrote:Ahhh I was just about to post this!

I think it's interesting that so much is out there now. Do you think the Chinese will be alarmed by how much can be deduced from open sources?
On the other hand, maybe they'd encourage it so that they can manipulate the conclusions of others by disseminating false data?
They might try, but that would be hard to do.

It's easy to disseminate false information when all you need to do is convey a specific wrong fact ("there is an Allied plan for an invasion of Greece" to distract the Germans from the planned invasion of Sicily). It's much harder when the people you're dealing with assemble their information from a mountain of individual sources, many of which you can't control. If you inject a single wrong thing into the pile, it's likely to get discarded because it contradicts with other things.

So to do that you need a more systematic deception effort, which is in turn harder to do since you have to keep up patterns of fake and misleading Internet posters, fake and misleading activities that will be seen on Google Earth, fake and misleading behaviors of your troops when they're portrayed on TV, and so on.
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Re: Georgetown Students Study SAC....

Post by Skgoa »

What I found more interesting, personally, was the story of how plane-spotters over years of observations identified the US rocket spy plane(s?) that seems to operate out of Scotland. I can't find the thread right now, but here are some pictures:

Image

There are similar efforts to identify spy satelites.

edit: And I just remembered that there is some evidence pointing towards top secret airships being used for SigInt. But afaik no one managed to snap any pictures of those, since they aren't on such predictabe flight paths as aforementioned rocket plane.

Uraniun235 wrote:
Phantasee wrote:Ahhh I was just about to post this!

I think it's interesting that so much is out there now. Do you think the Chinese will be alarmed by how much can be deduced from open sources?
On the other hand, maybe they'd encourage it so that they can manipulate the conclusions of others by disseminating false data?
It's happening all the time and it's being done by all sides. I wouldn't trust anything coming from anonymous sources.
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Re: Georgetown Students Study SAC....

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Even if I rarely contribute I always appreciate these posts, Shep. Thanks!
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Re: Georgetown Students Study SAC....

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Technically all Chinese military hardware is run by their Army.
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Re: Georgetown Students Study SAC....

Post by MKSheppard »

Georgetown U Students did this video, it's about 15 minutes long and is great.

Link to Youtube

One factoid they claim is that SAC has missiles and tunnels in.....Tibet :mrgreen:
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Re: Georgetown Students Study SAC....

Post by Pelranius »

How drearily alarmist. Though it could pass for a fanboy video on the Internet.

No mention of cruise missiles, strategic air mission infrastructure basing, UAVs, ABM assets, I see.

Some of the Georgetown folks are dropping by on Wednesday to give a talk at George Washington University. That should be a real doozy.
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Re: Georgetown Students Study SAC....

Post by Raj Ahten »

I find it interesting that so much more is known simply because China is putting more information out there via actually releasing videos taken from inside their tunnel network, etc. I wonder how many of these tunnels actually have rockets in them?
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Re: Georgetown Students Study SAC....

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

What if they're just maskirovka-ing?
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Re: Georgetown Students Study SAC....

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Simon_Jester wrote: It's easy to disseminate false information when all you need to do is convey a specific wrong fact ("there is an Allied plan for an invasion of Greece" to distract the Germans from the planned invasion of Sicily). It's much harder when the people you're dealing with assemble their information from a mountain of individual sources, many of which you can't control. If you inject a single wrong thing into the pile, it's likely to get discarded because it contradicts with other things.

So to do that you need a more systematic deception effort, which is in turn harder to do since you have to keep up patterns of fake and misleading Internet posters, fake and misleading activities that will be seen on Google Earth, fake and misleading behaviors of your troops when they're portrayed on TV, and so on.
It's difficult for some things, easy for others.For example: China does not control the media that say their missile tunnels exist ; However, they do control access and the interior of these tunnels, so they can relatively easily deceive people about the total size of the network, how many missiles there are etc by leaking videos and pictures, making their nuclear force look vastly bigger and better protected than it actually is.

Soviets did that all the time, though admittedly they enjoyed much tighter control over the media overall.
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Re: Georgetown Students Study SAC....

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Raj Ahten wrote:I find it interesting that so much more is known simply because China is putting more information out there via actually releasing videos taken from inside their tunnel network, etc. I wonder how many of these tunnels actually have rockets in them?
Not that many I'd bet. For one thing, a lot of those tunnels are likely just storing conventional ammunition. The Chinese basically don't build bunker/reinforced building style ammunition storage like NATO or the Soviets would, at least they don't as far as I can tell, and so they throw it all in caves and tunnels and that requirement alone would eat up a lot of these facilities. A fair number may also be storing fuel or other supplies.

Still personally, the claims that China had as few as 200 nukes never make any damn sense to me. Even if they do really believe in a minimal strategic force, the simple demands of tactical nuclear warfare would require far more warheads. Only in the last 10 years has China really begun to have a really serious mechanized land army, and the situation they faced in the cold war was totally insane. Even the third rate divisions the Soviets had in Siberia massively outgunned them and nothing but tactical nukes would have given them any hope of stopping an invasion. We know the Chinese have quite large nuclear production complexes, and we know they poured a massive amount of money into building an underground Pu-239 production complex in the 1970s and 1980s, though it wasn't finished. Why would anyone go to the point of trying to harden a nuclear production facility if they didn't intend to rely heavily on nuclear weapons, and thus stockpile lots of them?

Its also worth considering that China simply has a lot of labor, and during the cultural revolution and associated insanity they put lots of kids to work digging tunnels for the sake of digging tunnels. Not a bad way to keep them from rioting in the streets, as it was exhausting but highly patriotic duty. More then one tunnel in China is likely to have never had an active purpose and was just busy work.
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Re: Georgetown Students Study SAC....

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Why is the ~3000 warhead figure considered highly overstated? China have among the largest industries in the world and is a nuclear power since sixties. They have had 4 decades to stockpile warheads. US and USSR built their huge Cold war arsenals in around 2 decades. Unless China have some production bottlenecks they can't overcome or never made having large nuclear force a high priority there is no reason they can't have few thousand warheads produced.
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Re: Georgetown Students Study SAC....

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Skgoa wrote:What I found more interesting, personally, was the story of how plane-spotters over years of observations identified the US rocket spy plane(s?) that seems to operate out of Scotland. I can't find the thread right now, but here are some pictures:

Image

There are similar efforts to identify spy satelites.

edit: And I just remembered that there is some evidence pointing towards top secret airships being used for SigInt. But afaik no one managed to snap any pictures of those, since they aren't on such predictabe flight paths as aforementioned rocket plane.
That bottom right pic is pretty clearly a SR-71 in profile. The others? Who knows.
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Re: Georgetown Students Study SAC....

Post by Simon_Jester »

[thinks]

I think the Chinese would have been trying to keep their tactical nuclear force (whatever of it existed) under wraps from both the US and the USSR, since if Skimmer's right it was mostly intended to fight the USSR in the first place- and since I suspect a lot of it would have to be delivered via short range ballistic missiles and fighter-bombers, making it useless for a strategic deterrent against the US.

So it would be very much not to China's advantage to publically avow "yes, we have one thousand fifty-kiloton bombs intended to fight the Soviet armored divisions invading us from the north, all of which are meant to be slung under a fighter after which we hope for the best." Because it looks very bad in terms of openly increasing the USSR/China breach, and it gives anyone calling for arms reduction a bigger lever against China (you can't assert that other countries need to reduce their strategic nuclear arsenals so easily when you have a tactical arsenal of comparable size... and it's their strategic arsenal you're worried about).

No wonder they try not to talk about it, assuming it exists.
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Re: Georgetown Students Study SAC....

Post by open_sketchbook »

Is it wrong that the part I find most interesting about this is the possibility of tracking down "Chinese 24"? Not only could it be totally sweet, but I don't think anything sums up a country's populist military attitudes like it's fiction, and Chinese fiction isn't exactly widely disseminated in the west.
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