Courts Marshal of the Enterprise-D Command Staff

[Batman]

I don't think we're ever told if the damn thing can be replicated but not having a spare (even if it has to be built the old-fashioned way) would indeed be foolish. Nevermind breaking it (for all we know the thing might be indestructible) but given the depressing regularity with which Starfleet personnel get taken prisoner, which in Geordi's case as often as not includes the captors taking away his visor, you'd think he'd have a spare or seven in case he has to leave his duty visor behind during the inevitable escape.

[dworkin]

I also think you are supposing that Starfleet Regulations in the wierd future society that is the Federation set in a clearly very wierd universe is anything like our own. It may in fact be a major offence to refer back to previous events when facing opposition. It may be required to come up with an entirely new technobabble solution to every encounter. This of course being a long way into this crew's career it takes them a while to do this. Which is what lets the KIA of Prey get a few shots in.

The Enterprise crew acted entirely appropiately according to their society's rules. To judge them by ours is cultural myopia of the worst ...

Bah. Who am I kidding. I wouldn't trust those loons with toy boats in a kids paddling pool.

[Havok]

"...that said, the actions of the crew of the Enterprise-D saved 4 million lives and eliminated a very dangerous enemy of of our allies, the Klingon Empire. Case dismissed."

[Eternal_Freedom]

If you are referring to the pre-warp population of veridian IV, it was 400 million.

[Stofsk]

It was actually 230 million according to Memory Alpha. But the point Havok makes is pretty much how it would go down in a courts-martial.

hey maybe the writers should be put on trial too :V

[Eternal_Freedom]

As far as "extenuating circumstances" goes, saving an entire civilisation is a pretty good defence. It worked for James Kirk after all.

[Havok]

If you are referring to the pre-warp population of veridian IV, it was 400 million.

Oh, even better.

[Coalition]

The consoles are supposed to be reconfigurable on the fly, because they're supposed to basically all be touchscreen displays. Theoretically if you've got the clearance/authority to do so, you could make any computer panel on the ship a helm control - even a PADD. So, yeah, Data *could* have taken over helm control from where he was sitting, and probably continue to do other things as well.

That said, my guess would be that the writers put Troi at the helm to give her something to do.

They could have had her helping evacuate the children, and using her empathic senses to locate children who are hiding in rooms. It would have let her use the key feature, and contribute to the ship. Unfortunately, it would have eaten up screen time for no real purpose, so I can see why it was not used. Still, a shot of her holding a child and saying that a section is clear could have given the same effect.

Heck, I would interpret "return fire" as "fire back as many times as they shoot at us."

I would interpret it as "Open fire with everything that can bear on the target until it's no longer a threat."

So something like:
Riker: "Mr Worf, those two are terrorists from the Klingon Empire who collaborated with Romulans to ruin your family's name. I expect you to fire enough torpedoes at that ship that I can walk on them."

Still, having a pair of additional Klingon ships decloak would have made the scene better. "It's a 25-year old ship not even a tenth of our size, we can take it." The two ships decloak. "Okay, those are not 25 years old, and they are just as big as us."

Having the sisters never even talk about the two ships the entire time until the battle, then just say, "Is the datalink active? Tell them to attack." Everyone is wondering 'Them?', until they see the two ships. Then you get a brown pants moment as everyone does .

[Ted C]

"...that said, the actions of the crew of the Enterprise-D saved 4 million lives and eliminated a very dangerous enemy of of our allies, the Klingon Empire. Case dismissed."

Seeing as how they should have been able to save those 400 million people without losing the "Federation flagship" in the process, I doubt it would go so well. Instead of possibly losing one officer (Geordi), Picard and Riker lost the entire ship (with who knows how many casualties due to combat damage, the warp core blowing the engineering hull, and the primary hull crashing onto the planet; I can't figure how NO ONE would have died in all that).

[Ted C]

So something like:
Riker: "Mr Worf, those two are terrorists from the Klingon Empire who collaborated with Romulans to ruin your family's name. I expect you to fire enough torpedoes at that ship that I can walk on them."

I was thinking something simpler. To quote Riker in "Survivors":

"Fire phasers with a simultaneous spread of photon torpedoes"
or
"Commence rapid fire with all weapons."

I mean... we've seen how much firepower the Enterprise can dish out, yet the response to an attack was one brief phaser burst and one photon torpedo?

[Eternal_Freedom]

I can't figure how NO ONE would have died in all that).

In fairness, Picard's narrationa tthe end says their casualties were light, not nil.

[Batman]

I can't figure how NO ONE would have died in all that).

In fairness, Picard's narrationa tthe end says their casualties were light, not nil.

I think his point was that whatever casualties happened were completely avoidable. Had Picard been willing so sacrifice Geordi, had they actually bothered to do a proper checkup on Geordi once he got back, or even had Riker simply used the E-D's full potential once the, for want of a better word, battle was underway, none of those casualties would have happened to begin with.
That sequence essentially ignored the established capabilities of the E-D (and her crew) throughout TNG for the express purpose of seeing it destroyed.

[Ted C]

I think his point was that whatever casualties happened were completely avoidable.

Exactly. If not for plot-induced stupidity, they would have lost at most one person in that incident.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Ah, fair enough.

[Havok]

"...that said, the actions of the crew of the Enterprise-D saved 4 million lives and eliminated a very dangerous enemy of of our allies, the Klingon Empire. Case dismissed."

Seeing as how they should have been able to save those 400 million people without losing the "Federation flagship" in the process, I doubt it would go so well. Instead of possibly losing one officer (Geordi), Picard and Riker lost the entire ship (with who knows how many casualties due to combat damage, the warp core blowing the engineering hull, and the primary hull crashing onto the planet; I can't figure how NO ONE would have died in all that).

Uh... right, because decloaking Klingon Pirds of Prey never got the drop on anyone before.
They also, as far as I know, have no idea how they got the shield frequency modulation numbers that allowed them to penetrate the shields, so saying they should have just let LaForge die so in the future they would save people that should in no way be under threat from the kidnappers, is pretty stupid and a complete product of being the omniscient viewer.

[Ted C]

"...that said, the actions of the crew of the Enterprise-D saved 4 million lives and eliminated a very dangerous enemy of of our allies, the Klingon Empire. Case dismissed."

Seeing as how they should have been able to save those 400 million people without losing the "Federation flagship" in the process, I doubt it would go so well. Instead of possibly losing one officer (Geordi), Picard and Riker lost the entire ship (with who knows how many casualties due to combat damage, the warp core blowing the engineering hull, and the primary hull crashing onto the planet; I can't figure how NO ONE would have died in all that).

Uh... right, because decloaking Klingon Pirds of Prey never got the drop on anyone before.
They also, as far as I know, have no idea how they got the shield frequency modulation numbers that allowed them to penetrate the shields, so saying they should have just let LaForge die so in the future they would save people that should in no way be under threat from the kidnappers, is pretty stupid and a complete product of being the omniscient viewer.

1) The Bird of Prey wasn't cloaked! They were in plain sight when the shooting started.
2) You don't need to know how the enemy got your shield frequency to know you should change it (and presumably keep changing it, like you would against the Borg, to keep them from getting it again).
3) There's nothing wrong with negotiating to get an officer back, but trading the Captain for another officer is not a good trade. Even if you can somehow justify that, putting the retrieved officer back on duty immediately without a full debriefing and medical exam is downright stupid.

Did you even watch Generations?

[Baffalo]

Picard rarely goes on away missions and there's a reason for it. First of all, he's the Captain. The Captain's primary job is to remain aboard and direct the ship. When he does leave, he does so often when he's going on vacation, the ship is undergoing maintenance, or the ship is in little to no actual danger. Riker, as the Executive Officer, gets to go do the dangerous stuff for several reasons:
1) He's much younger than Picard and much more physically capable, 2) He's not as expendable as Picard. He's vital, but Picard is more so. 3) It's been established that Picard isn't a fighting man and isn't suited to the environments Riker often goes to.

Now, let's look at the situation regarding the hostage negotiation. Picard knows the Duras sisters from previous encounters. He knows they're ruthless, deadly, and aren't afraid to fight dirty. Now, they have one of his officers, which no doubt pisses him off. We know he will subject himself to torture just to prevent it from happening to his crew. But the ONLY thing keeping Picard from unleashing the holy hell that is the Enterprise's full weapons array is the fact that Geordi is still possibly alive. They don't know for sure, but they'd rather not take the chance. You can't exactly beam him off because of the shields, if you attack they might kill him, and if they run he might as well be dead later. So yes, Geordi was possibly gonna die.

Picard's solution? Let's hand over someone much more valuable. Geordi had the rank of Lieutenant Commander at the time, so the viable options for a substitute would be Dr. Crusher, Troi, Data, Riker or Picard. They even had the possibility of handing over Worf, who has royally pissed off the Duras sisters in the past and despite being a lower rank, might just piss them off enough to be worth the trade. Any one of these people could be a good candidate. But for reasons unknown, let's take the Captain, a very important person who is needed on the bridge during an emergency, and without slapping a locator beacon or anything that might be useful for finding him later, beam him over in exchange.

It wouldn't be so bad if they'd thought to use a locator like they did in Star Trek VI. That thing was broadcasting across lightyears and still got picked up. A beacon on Picard would've let them identify roughly where on the planet the missile was. It was a beautiful, mostly clear day, perfect for optical sensors to look down at. Extrapolate where Picard is compared to the missile, then you can lock on and keep a lock as it takes off. Now you tell the Duras sisters to kiss your ass and stand down while you beam Picard up (remember, he was outside the shield), then level the place with photon torpedoes. If the sisters want to fight, they get off one or two volleys before you blow them the hell up. Enterprise survives, everyone's back aboard, 400 million lives are safe, and you lose NOT A SINGLE GODDAMNED PERSON!

[El Moose Monstero]

Doesn't the dual role of the Enterprise as both warship and diplomatic ship come in, here? The aim of Picard in handing himself over was to persuade Soran not to launch in the first place, so he wasn't just going down to the planet as a prisoner or a captain leaving his post, but as the chief negotiator. Would we be berating the chief of police for putting himself into a hostage situation if he was the most likely person to be able to resolve it?

Admittedly that does seem to rely on the Klingons keeping their word about letting him speak with Soran, but they do transmit coordinates for the beam in. Does anyone remember whether the beam in effect on the planet was klingon or federation? I think it was blue, so it would have been the federation transported. Though that also implies that they could have had coordinates giving them a possible location for the missile launcher (although they had no way of knowing whether Soran's location and the missile location were the same - i.e. remote launch).

[Baffalo]

Doesn't the dual role of the Enterprise as both warship and diplomatic ship come in, here? The aim of Picard in handing himself over was to persuade Soran not to launch in the first place, so he wasn't just going down to the planet as a prisoner or a captain leaving his post, but as the chief negotiator. Would we be berating the chief of police for putting himself into a hostage situation if he was the most likely person to be able to resolve it?

The Enterprise does have a sort of all-in-one feel to it, yes, but he is also dealing with a situation that is very, very bad. He knows what Soran is planning, he knows the Duras Sisters would love to use the technology, and he's putting his entire command at risk by trying to get Geordi back. In this case, Picard knew the players, knew the goals, and knew what their intended outcomes were. Considering that the Duras Sisters already had bad dealing with the Enterprise in the past, not to mention their little attempt to buy weapons off DS9, means they're known terrorists. And as much as I detest sayin it, sometimes you're in a situation where you have no choice but to pull the trigger.

Admittedly that does seem to rely on the Klingons keeping their word about letting him speak with Soran, but they do transmit coordinates for the beam in. Does anyone remember whether the beam in effect on the planet was klingon or federation? I think it was blue, so it would have been the federation transported. Though that also implies that they could have had coordinates giving them a possible location for the missile launcher (although they had no way of knowing whether Soran's location and the missile location were the same - i.e. remote launch).

From what I remember I believe the Klingons and Enterprise beamed simultaneously, with the Klingons rerouting the transporter beam to put Picard on the surface. No actual data was transmitted.

[Panashe]

You can still charge her for gross incompetence in executing the manoeuver. She chose to turn the Enterprise about ...

The previous helmsperson initiate the turn prior to be injured, Troi upon taking the helm merely continued the maneuver.

Rather than rotate the shield frequency or ...

Worf (or someone else) apparently did rotate the frequencies at least once. After the Enterprise finishes her turn and is pointed away from the BOP, the BOP fires at the port nacelle, but doesn't penetrate the shields, instead impacts the shield over the nacelle. Later the fire does penetrate again. During Riker's discussion with Worf, the ship is repeatedly being shaken, but to differing degrees. Perhaps some weapons fire is striking the shield, while other fire is reaching the hull?

Problem with shield frequency rotate is, it's only good until LaForge glances at the display again.

[Uraniun235]

After the Enterprise finishes her turn and is pointed away from the BOP, the BOP fires at the port nacelle, but doesn't penetrate the shields, instead impacts the shield over the nacelle. Later the fire does penetrate again.

I think you may be misremembering that scene. Here are some screenshots I took: link

First shot
Second shot
Third shot, intersecting with shields - note that all other shots that hit the Enterprise also interacted with the shields
Third shot, striking the nacelle
Third shot, having struck the nacelle
Debris ejected from the impact

[Patrick Degan]

You can still charge her for gross incompetence in executing the manoeuver. She chose to turn the Enterprise about ...

The previous helmsperson initiate the turn prior to be injured, Troi upon taking the helm merely continued the maneuver.

Point taken. In fact, on reflection, I've concluded that Troi really can't be charged for anything. That she didn't know the job wasn't her fault; she was following orders from the First Officer, who decided to put an inexperienced person at the controls. That she was, in fact, finishing a manoeuver that had already been underway exculpates her.

[Baffalo]

Can we still throw her in the brig? Please?

[Batman]

Can we still throw her in the brig? Please?

Whatever for? The only crimes she ever committed were wearing that stupid pale purple garment, being on the bridge offering useless advice (which wasn't her fault, useless or not that was part of her job description) and having that ugly hairdo.

[Eternal_Freedom]

According to the Top Gear Alternative highway Code, you can be fined for driving with an inappropriate haircut. I would think Strfleet would have a similar regulation somewheres.