Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder.

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18670
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder.

Post by Rogue 9 »

I am suppressing rage at the moment. The link contains a graphic picture of facial mutilation. The squeamish may consider themselves warned.
3 December 2011
Is it still wrong if another culture says it is right? A teacher’s surprising discovery
Denyse O'Leary

Recently, a Canadian high school teacher broke the silence about where cultural relativism really leads.

Update: When we celebrate “diversity,” what exactly are we celebrating?

We are told that it means that everyone will accept people of other faiths and sexualities. But what can that mean when it is unpacked?

In “Moments of startling clarity: Moral education programming in Ontario today,”* Stephen L. Anderson recounts what happened when he tried to show students what can happen to women in a culture with no tradition of treating women as if they were fellow human beings with men:
I was teaching my senior Philosophy class. We had just finished a unit on Metaphysics and were about to get into Ethics, the philosophy of how we make moral judgments. The school had also just had several social-justice-type assemblies—multiculturalism, women’s rights, anti-violence and gay acceptance. So there was no shortage of reference points from which to begin.

I decided to open by simply displaying, without comment, the photo of Bibi Aisha. Aisha was the Afghani teenager who was forced into an abusive marriage with a Taliban fighter, who abused her and kept her with his animals. When she attempted to flee, her family caught her, hacked off her nose and ears, and left her for dead in the mountains. After crawling to her grandfather’s house, she was saved by a nearby American hospital. I felt quite sure that my students, seeing the suffering of this poor girl of their own age, would have a clear ethical reaction, from which we could build toward more difficult cases.

The picture is horrific. Aisha’s beautiful eyes stare hauntingly back at you above the mangled hole that was once her nose. Some of my students could not even raise their eyes to look at it. I could see that many were experiencing deep emotions.

But I was not prepared for their reaction.

I had expected strong aversion; but that’s not what I got. Instead, they became confused. They seemed not to know what to think. They spoke timorously, afraid to make any moral judgment at all. They were unwilling to criticize any situation originating in a different culture.

They said, “Well, we might not like it, but maybe over there it’s okay.” One student said, “I don’t feel anything at all; I see lots of this kind of stuff .”

Another said (with no consciousness of self-contradiction), “It’s just wrong to judge other cultures.”
Anderson reflects,
While we may hope some are capable of bridging the gap between principled morality and this ethically vacuous relativism, it is evident that a good many are not. For them, the overriding message is “never judge, never criticize, never take a position.”
One reason might be this: For thousands of years, most thinkers assumed that virtue was something specific; it could be described, and could be distinguished from not-virtue (vice). Courage, for example, was a virtue—a cardinal virtue. Cowardice was a vice. One ought, they said, to aim for courage because it is intrinsically worthy, and avoid cowardice because it is intrinsically a disgrace. Those thinkers are—in the students’ terms—judgmental!

In recent decades, a new view has taken root. The new view is that courage and cowardice have no intrinsic reality. Neither does the classical virtue of justice or the vice of injustice. It all depends on how you feel about things, which in turn depends on your culture. That underlies the students’ inability to move from “I feel bad” to “This is wrong.”

One outcome has been the popular convention that all cultures are of equal value. If Afghan men see their treatment of women as just, then it must be so. We lack any legitimate basis for saying it isn’t. One common way of putting it is that our ancestors were bigoted imperialists who didn’t see the worth of other cultures.

How would a traditional philosopher respond to that? Well, if he believes that virtue and vice (right and wrong) exist in some sense, even as abstractions, he would likely say that most cultures excel in some virtues but not in others.

The Afghan culture, for example, excels in the virtue of courage; it produces many brave suicide bombers. But it falls behind in the virtue of justice, especially where women are concerned. The traditional philosopher would insist that this is an objective assessment, based on evidence, and that no one who makes it can properly be called a bigot.

A different culture may excel in justice, but fall behind in courage. That is a particularly unfortunate combination because people vaguely understand that when a woman is mutilated for running away from an abusive husband, a terrible wrong has been done. These students, after all, were not a Taliban mob, cheering the mutilators on. They do not speak up for fear of criticism for the one remaining sin—passing judgment. Again, from the traditional perspective, it is not bigotry to say that their cowardice is a vice. It is a vice.

The students could not go from their vague discomfort to a rational ethical conclusion because they have never learned traditional philosophy of ethics. Therefore, their objections have no force and, for all that they sense injustice, they will likely do very little good in the world. And the “accept everyone, accept everything” assemblies they attend unwittingly feed the problem: They learn to accept gay rights in North America and stoning gays in Afghanistan.

Theirs is an education to avoid at all costs.
Italics in the original.

What the fuck is wrong with these people? :wtf: In what moral or ethical system is passing judgment on other cultures morally worse than mutilating a person and leaving her for dead?
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3317
Joined: 2004-10-15 08:57pm
Location: Regina Nihilists' Guild Party Headquarters

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

This article is so bad that I don't know how to respond to it, nor do I understand why it was posted.
User avatar
Bakustra
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2822
Joined: 2005-05-12 07:56pm
Location: Neptune Violon Tide!

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Bakustra »

I can muster one response: that is not cultural relativism. Indeed many, (probably most) forms of cultural relativism promote a universal set of moral judgments based around whether an act destroys culture. What this is referring to is, technically, moral relativism, but on the other hand, moral absolutism leads to utter incoherency and inflexibility, so it is entirely inferior. Similarly, cultural absolutism would lead to the burning of every copy of the Tale of the Heike, the destruction of millennia of art, the extermination of hundreds of musical styles. Some form of cultural relativism, and some form of moral relativism, are essential to avoid repugnant actions.

But really, what this is, is whining that philosophy has moved on beyond Aristotle, and beyond Augustine, and beyond Aquinas, by a creationist who believes that only Christians can make moral decisions concerning science, that non-materialistic neuroscience is workable, and, now, apparently, that it's okay to backhandedly compliment Afghani culture and effectively condemn it as primitive. Well, Rouge, if that's what you're willing to succumb to, I'm afraid you're currently falling into a well of stupidity where Mark Steyn is considered credible, so I guess what this article really is, in the final sense, is scaremongering, attempting to push Canadians and Americans to the point where fears about Eurabia will trigger a genocide of Muslims in North America. Congratulations, Rouge, for falling for it.
Invited by the new age, the elegant Sailor Neptune!
I mean, how often am I to enter a game of riddles with the author, where they challenge me with some strange and confusing and distracting device, and I'm supposed to unravel it and go "I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE" and take great personal satisfaction and pride in our mutual cleverness?
- The Handle, from the TVTropes Forums
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3317
Joined: 2004-10-15 08:57pm
Location: Regina Nihilists' Guild Party Headquarters

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

Okay, I'm going to add some content and it's possible that a decent thread might still somehow appear.

A far better article than that posted is the article it is referencing, by Dr. Anderson himself. I would quote it all, but the formatting is egregiously fucked up. Link.

He seems to be addressing a more direct and specific problem: that 'character education' as it stands in the Ontario School System is a rather gelatinous and incoherent set of fluff. I wouldn't necessarily disagree, but there's something I want to mention about the anecdote he uses to catalyze the whole discussion.

He mentions that this was the first day of teaching his Senior (High School)-level Philosophy class about Ethics. From what he mentioned of his curriculum, it seems that his method of education would be to lay out and then critique a number of schools of Ethical thought in depth. From what I know of high school, which is as much as most people, and what I know of philosophy, which is a bit more than most, and what I know of students taking philosophy, which is quite a bit, I'm going to make the un-supported abductive leap that the students simply didn't want to make any strong claims because they knew, or suspected, that their teacher would be able to shoot them down, and they knew that anything they said might sound ignorant and they would lose cred. This is more a universal condition of students than it is the fault of some relativistic sickness in our society. It tends to happen in any Philosophy class when the teacher or professor asks the class to answer some grand question: everyone feels like they're just going to be the foil for the teacher to start telling them the real answer, and most people don't want to be that.
Last edited by SCRawl on 2011-12-09 09:36am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Duplicate post deleted - SCRawl
User avatar
Bakustra
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2822
Joined: 2005-05-12 07:56pm
Location: Neptune Violon Tide!

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Bakustra »

Yeah, that seems like a fairly counterproductive way to getting people engaged in stuff- nobody wants to look like an idiot, especially in high school, and traditional methods of education suppress student participation through a heavy focus on didactic lectures. That seems like it would kill discussion of ethics, which would seem to be important for actually studying the stuff.
Invited by the new age, the elegant Sailor Neptune!
I mean, how often am I to enter a game of riddles with the author, where they challenge me with some strange and confusing and distracting device, and I'm supposed to unravel it and go "I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE" and take great personal satisfaction and pride in our mutual cleverness?
- The Handle, from the TVTropes Forums
User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18670
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Rogue 9 »

Bakustra wrote:I can muster one response: that is not cultural relativism. Indeed many, (probably most) forms of cultural relativism promote a universal set of moral judgments based around whether an act destroys culture. What this is referring to is, technically, moral relativism, but on the other hand, moral absolutism leads to utter incoherency and inflexibility, so it is entirely inferior. Similarly, cultural absolutism would lead to the burning of every copy of the Tale of the Heike, the destruction of millennia of art, the extermination of hundreds of musical styles. Some form of cultural relativism, and some form of moral relativism, are essential to avoid repugnant actions.
The fact that there are repugnant actions is itself an absolute. I don't disagree; not everything is absolutely right or wrong. In fact, most things aren't. But what was done to Bibi Aisha easily falls into the category of absolutely wrong.
Bakustra wrote:But really, what this is, is whining that philosophy has moved on beyond Aristotle, and beyond Augustine, and beyond Aquinas, by a creationist who believes that only Christians can make moral decisions concerning science, that non-materialistic neuroscience is workable, and, now, apparently, that it's okay to backhandedly compliment Afghani culture and effectively condemn it as primitive.
I knew nothing about the author of the piece before posting it. The person I got it from is not the type to endorse that sort of view (at all), so I didn't vet it as thoroughly as I would have coming from random browsing. My apologies for that, but I maintain that it is revolting to take the position that it's okay to do that to a person if it's the cultural norm.
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote: A far better article than that posted is the article it is referencing, by Dr. Anderson himself. I would quote it all, but the formatting is egregiously fucked up. Link.
The formatting is fucked up, which is why I didn't quote it instead. In any case, the unrelated beliefs of the author aren't at issue; it's the fact that evidently students, or at least these students, are learning somewhere that the moral cowardice it takes to refuse to condemn this sort of action is a praiseworthy thing, and that passing judgment on it is wrong because the incident happened in the context of another culture.
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:He seems to be addressing a more direct and specific problem: that 'character education' as it stands in the Ontario School System is a rather gelatinous and incoherent set of fluff. I wouldn't necessarily disagree, but there's something I want to mention about the anecdote he uses to catalyze the whole discussion.

He mentions that this was the first day of teaching his Senior (High School)-level Philosophy class about Ethics. From what he mentioned of his curriculum, it seems that his method of education would be to lay out and then critique a number of schools of Ethical thought in depth. From what I know of high school, which is as much as most people, and what I know of philosophy, which is a bit more than most, and what I know of students taking philosophy, which is quite a bit, I'm going to make the un-supported abductive leap that the students simply didn't want to make any strong claims because they knew, or suspected, that their teacher would be able to shoot them down, and they knew that anything they said might sound ignorant and they would lose cred. This is more a universal condition of students than it is the fault of some relativistic sickness in our society. It tends to happen in any Philosophy class when the teacher or professor asks the class to answer some grand question: everyone feels like they're just going to be the foil for the teacher to start telling them the real answer, and most people don't want to be that.
Then they should grow a spine, though he doesn't say it's the first day of teaching the class; he in fact says the opposite when he mentions that they'd just finished a unit. But if they think the safest and least ignorant thing to say is that there's nothing wrong with it, then I have to question either what they're doing out of remedial coursework or what the hell has given them that impression in their earlier education. It is morally bankrupt to say that it's okay because it's "over there."
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3317
Joined: 2004-10-15 08:57pm
Location: Regina Nihilists' Guild Party Headquarters

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

Then they should grow a spine, though he doesn't say it's the first day of teaching the class; he in fact says the opposite when he mentions that they'd just finished a unit.
I can see you can't read. I'm sorry about that.
But if they think the safest and least ignorant thing to say is that there's nothing wrong with it, then I have to question either what they're doing out of remedial coursework or what the hell has given them that impression in their earlier education. It is morally bankrupt to say that it's okay because it's "over there."
Are you actually ragging on students taking their first class on Ethics for reserving an ethical judgement.
User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18670
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Rogue 9 »

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:
Then they should grow a spine, though he doesn't say it's the first day of teaching the class; he in fact says the opposite when he mentions that they'd just finished a unit.
I can see you can't read. I'm sorry about that.
Really?
I recently had one of these moments while I was teaching my senior Philosophy class. We had just finished a unit on Metaphysics and were about to get into Ethics, the philosophy of how we make moral judgments.
The class is Philosophy, presumably an overview course since we're talking about high school. Metaphysics and ethics are two subjects the course covers, in groups of lessons known as units. Apparently one of us can't read, and somehow I doubt it's me.
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:
But if they think the safest and least ignorant thing to say is that there's nothing wrong with it, then I have to question either what they're doing out of remedial coursework or what the hell has given them that impression in their earlier education. It is morally bankrupt to say that it's okay because it's "over there."
Are you actually ragging on students taking their first class on Ethics for reserving an ethical judgement.
Yes, of course I am. By the time they're seventeen years old, they should realize that cutting off a person's nose and ears and leaving her on a mountainside to die is immoral behavior. This is very basic stuff, which, incidentally, is explicitly why it was chosen for the first problem presented in the unit.
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
User avatar
Bakustra
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2822
Joined: 2005-05-12 07:56pm
Location: Neptune Violon Tide!

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Bakustra »

You do realize that most high school kids generally have been conditioned to assume that their first response will be wrong, right? So they don't want to look like a complete idiot and they believe that the teacher has the answers, so they won't offer anything committed and they'll go for conciliatory answers to avoid being told they're wrong in front of the class. I don't think that this is really some kind of moral indictment of students overall or even of these specific ones.
Invited by the new age, the elegant Sailor Neptune!
I mean, how often am I to enter a game of riddles with the author, where they challenge me with some strange and confusing and distracting device, and I'm supposed to unravel it and go "I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE" and take great personal satisfaction and pride in our mutual cleverness?
- The Handle, from the TVTropes Forums
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3317
Joined: 2004-10-15 08:57pm
Location: Regina Nihilists' Guild Party Headquarters

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

No Bakustra moderating your instinctive judgements is moral cowardice.
User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18670
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Rogue 9 »

Bakustra wrote:You do realize that most high school kids generally have been conditioned to assume that their first response will be wrong, right? So they don't want to look like a complete idiot and they believe that the teacher has the answers, so they won't offer anything committed and they'll go for conciliatory answers to avoid being told they're wrong in front of the class. I don't think that this is really some kind of moral indictment of students overall or even of these specific ones.
No, I can't say I'm familiar with that phenomenon. If their first response is always wrong, then they are complete idiots, and don't need help to look like it; it takes a complete idiot to go to a class without having already read the text, and if you've done that you won't be wrong all the time. Most classwork leading up to the senior year of high school (as well as most within it) is sufficiently simple to understand with a modest amount of preparation.

That said, they did commit, specifically to the proposition that it is morally wrong to judge other cultures, which isn't the most conciliatory of things either. So if the idea was to be non-committal, then as a group they badly bungled it. At any rate, their own teacher seems to be quite nonplussed about their reaction, so evidently he doesn't think this is a normal thing, which he would if it was, since teaching high school students is his profession.
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:No Bakustra moderating your instinctive judgements is moral cowardice.
:roll:
And they persevered—no matter how I prodded they did not leave their nonjudgmental position.
This clearly isn't a case of trying to make the teacher happy (since he was actively trying to convince them they were wrong, and they didn't budge), nor were they "moderating" anything. If they really do think that the case before them is horrible, then what they actually said wasn't moderation; it was a lie.
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
User avatar
Bakustra
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2822
Joined: 2005-05-12 07:56pm
Location: Neptune Violon Tide!

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Bakustra »

Oh for fuck's sakes, Rouge, just because you had no understanding of how other people behaved doesn't mean that you're an authority. In fact, it means the opposite.

Secondly, you're presuming that he outright said they were wrong, which is counterproductive to the actual process of talking about ethics. But with this conditioning, not saying that something is wrong outright, or at least seriously challenging it, means that students take it to be right. But if you do so, you imply that there is a right answer. In other words, high schools don't really equip students with the ability to talk about ethics when they first file into the class, and so you can't really make any judgments about their grasp of ethics from this. I bet that in a different setting, the same students would condemn it as horrible and awful without the fear of shame dangling above their heads.
Invited by the new age, the elegant Sailor Neptune!
I mean, how often am I to enter a game of riddles with the author, where they challenge me with some strange and confusing and distracting device, and I'm supposed to unravel it and go "I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE" and take great personal satisfaction and pride in our mutual cleverness?
- The Handle, from the TVTropes Forums
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Simon_Jester »

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:No Bakustra moderating your instinctive judgements is moral cowardice.
If so, then we may have an obvious problem:

The high school system may be teaching students to become moral cowards.

Deficiencies in educational systems can come from a lot of different directions. "Too much multiculturalism" strikes me as a pretty unlikely way for the system to fail. "Too prone to convince students to give the answers they expect the teacher to want to hear" is a pretty common one.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Korto
Jedi Master
Posts: 1196
Joined: 2007-12-19 07:31am
Location: Newcastle, Aus

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Korto »

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:No Bakustra moderating your instinctive judgements is moral cowardice.
Moderating your instincts is what prevents people from being killed, raped, beaten and robbed, etc, and looking beyond your instinctual judgements is why we no longer pull our children off the streets and pick up rocks whenever someone with Downs Syndrome walks by.

I have a question, is the treatment as described really long-term cultural, or is it the short-term shit culture you might get in a place war-torn and dominated by rebels and drug-lords?
Either way, doesn't really matter. I give you my answer from this thread
I understand that your moral code doesn't allow you to pass judgement on others, except through their own moral codes (best of luck running a civilisation, or even a goddamn family, like that), but fortunately we have a solution, as mine does. Since we've already established all moralities are equal, mine is therefore just as right as yours.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor
User avatar
Spoonist
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2405
Joined: 2002-09-20 11:15am

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Spoonist »

Korto wrote:I have a question, is the treatment as described really long-term cultural, or is it the short-term shit culture you might get in a place war-torn and dominated by rebels and drug-lords?
Unfortunately its long-term cultural. But the context is missing and that is that before it became a war-torn shithole dominated by opiumfunded warlords things was improving, civilization wise and women's rights wise. So if Afghanistan wouldn't have been invaded by the Russkies, ruled by the warlords, torn apart by civil war and then invaded by the US then they would have improved plentyfold.
Just like in other zones its the urban areas that adapt first and the rural areas that adapt last to social change.
When it comes to women's rights they are closely tied to wealth and progress. There has to be enough jobs to go around to get them into the workforce for instance. There has to be childcare, schools etc. So without progress - no social change.
User avatar
Dave
Jedi Knight
Posts: 901
Joined: 2004-02-06 11:55pm
Location: Kansas City, MO

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Dave »

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:that 'character education' as it stands in the Ontario School System is a rather gelatinous and incoherent set of fluff.
As I recall, character education in my high school was along the lines of "Be good, Be positive, Be persistent, and Be <name of school>". Along with announcements along the lines of "The word of the month is.... 'determination' ...the quality of being determined." or some other boring, utterly unremarkable statement.

Presumably all so the school can check the box that says "Encourages positive character growth in students".

I don't think any school system really focuses on character education, unless it's a private religious school.
It is morally bankrupt to say that it's okay because it's "over there."

Of course it's morally bankrupt, but the thing is these kids haven't gotten any philosophy or morality education outside of religion. It's not so much being "just bankrupt" as it is being on a barter-only system and not even knowing there's a bank and a monetary system. (Not a great analogy but it gets the point across.)

When I took bioethics as a sophomore in college it was my first substantial exposure to morality systems not based on religion, and was quite an eyeopener for me.
Modax
Padawan Learner
Posts: 278
Joined: 2008-10-30 11:53pm

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Modax »

I was teaching my senior Philosophy class. We had just finished a unit on Metaphysics and were about to get into Ethics, the philosophy of how we make moral judgments (...) The students could not go from their vague discomfort to a rational ethical conclusion because they have never learned traditional philosophy of ethics.
It's a really depressing story. I'm reminded of that famous electroshock torture experiment: where they found out that people didn't really think it was wrong for them to give someone agonizing electrocutions if someone in a lab coat had ordered them to. Maybe that result would be harder to replicate nowadays, because science and scientists aren't held in as high esteem now as in 1963, partly due to the influence of postmodernism. With postmodernism you get this instead, where people don't think it's wrong for people in another culture to treat women as non-human.

They've been told by all their authority figures to respect other cultures, if they find this video confusing, they are motivated to resist the confusion; afterall, philosophy is supposed to be hard and counterintuitive, right? Believing this stuff doesn't even force these kids to make any difficult choices or face any consequences, so its not altogether surprising that they uphold these beliefs even in the 'uncomfortable' cases.

So how come this brand of extreme moral relativism isn't commonplace in the general population? Well, it may be more common than we'd like to believe. Maybe that class is an anomaly and those kids will grow out of those beliefs in a few years. However I think most people of any age are liable to believe whatever it is they think their chosen authority figures believe.
User avatar
Spoonist
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2405
Joined: 2002-09-20 11:15am

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Spoonist »

Modax wrote:Maybe that result would be harder to replicate nowadays, because science and scientists aren't held in as high esteem now as in 1963, partly due to the influence of postmodernism.
You would be wrong. This has been replicated several times. But why we don't anymore is because it breaks a lot of ethical rules that scientists have to follow to get grants.
Show business doesn't.
Modax
Padawan Learner
Posts: 278
Joined: 2008-10-30 11:53pm

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Modax »

Shit. Well that's just wonderful.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Simon_Jester »

Modax, I wouldn't be so quick to assume that all these kids have been dosed with a pile of "postmodernism" until their sense of moral outrage evaporates.

Some portion of their behavior probably ties into the high school environment and other factors that can't really be blamed on "too much diversity training."

For that matter, real postmodernism is the sort of philosophy I doubt people even try to throw at high school students; I think you're using postmodernism as a name for too wide a range of ideas.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Tomzilla
Youngling
Posts: 54
Joined: 2011-01-21 10:36pm
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Tomzilla »

Our morals and cultures go hand-in-hand. Both affect the other and, in this case, blinds you from making rational decisions. Something tells me some of these students are a bit too cautious when it comes to other cultures. Maybe they don't want to look racist or prejudice in front of their peers? Although...
They said, “Well, we might not like it, but maybe over there it’s okay.” One student said, “I don’t feel anything at all; I see lots of this kind of stuff.”
...This doesn't really strike me as a moral statement. Whoever said that either needs to rethink what morals are in the first place or they need to get their head examined.

Anyway, this strikes me more as a conflict between imposing beliefs on others (which conflicts with Western culture and our morals) than another Your Morals vs. Other Cultures discussion. (Although that's an interesting discussion in itself.)
User avatar
Straha
Lord of the Spam
Posts: 8198
Joined: 2002-07-21 11:59pm
Location: NYC

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Straha »

There are so many things wrong with the OP article that I'm not even sure where to begin.

For one, it misses that central message of people the author terms relativists. Their message is not "All cultures are equal, so what they do is just as good as what we do!" it's a more nuanced message which is "All cultures and societies are based on ideas that are generated through subjective evaluations, and before we start passing moral/ethical judgments on other people we should be aware of our own biases and try to correct for them."

To put it in terms of the OP article itself, he phrases it as:
One outcome has been the popular convention that all cultures are of equal value. If Afghan men see their treatment of women as just, then it must be so.
The proper answer is not that the students see the way the woman was treated as inherently just, it's that they (and the people he derisively terms 'relativists') are trying to come to terms with a conception of "justice" that isn't just as arbitrarily flawed as the one used by people who fucking mutilated her and (hopefully) understand that having a fucking kneejerk reaction that "this is bad and must be stopped" is probably a bad thing.

And, frankly, when it comes to ethics I'm much more... comfortable with a room full of people that are hesitant to pass judgment on something without studiously questioning a proposition from all sides than I am with a room full of people who make kneejerk moral judgments without any hint of anxiety or self-reflection. Especially when, after re-reading the article again, it becomes clear that the teacher offered the picture without any fucking context for them to make a judgment.

Second, the students are there to fucking LEARN and question. When he comes in and shows a picture of a mutilated woman and asks how they feel they act confused and concerned. Even if they do care they're not sure how to express their feelings.The line 'I don’t feel anything at all; I see lots of this kind of stuff .' is fucking exactly perfect because that's the entire point of a class on ethics. The clothes on most of their backs (including the teacher's, I bet) were crafted in third-world sweat shops, a grand majority of them almost certainly eat animal products (again including the teacher), and they live within a system which uses the world's resources at a voracious rate. The teacher and students do not object to these things, but they are expected to react to a picture of a fucking mutilated woman? That's why you take an ethics class. To see different ways of evaluating the world around you and to try and stumble towards the best one.

Third, I have a fucking problem with kneejerk reactions like the one the author calls for. This is the sort of shit that justifies imperialism, leads to 'humanitarian interventions' like the United States' conquest of Cuba and the Philippines (or the reservation systems across the world), and lead to the first world ignoring third world peoples and cultures because they don't know how to see the world right. Fuck that shit and fuck the high horse that O'Leary rode in on.
'After 9/11, it was "You're with us or your with the terrorists." Now its "You're with Straha or you support racism."' ' - The Romulan Republic

'You're a bully putting on an air of civility while saying that everything western and/or capitalistic must be bad, and a lot of other posters (loomer, Stas Bush, Gandalf) are also going along with it for their own personal reasons (Stas in particular is looking through rose colored glasses)' - Darth Yan
User avatar
Straha
Lord of the Spam
Posts: 8198
Joined: 2002-07-21 11:59pm
Location: NYC

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Straha »

Rogue 9 wrote: Yes, of course I am. By the time they're seventeen years old, they should realize that cutting off a person's nose and ears and leaving her on a mountainside to die is immoral behavior. This is very basic stuff, which, incidentally, is explicitly why it was chosen for the first problem presented in the unit.
DISTURBING IMAGE

This is a picture of a piglet being castrated without anesthetic.

How does it make you feel, Rogue?
'After 9/11, it was "You're with us or your with the terrorists." Now its "You're with Straha or you support racism."' ' - The Romulan Republic

'You're a bully putting on an air of civility while saying that everything western and/or capitalistic must be bad, and a lot of other posters (loomer, Stas Bush, Gandalf) are also going along with it for their own personal reasons (Stas in particular is looking through rose colored glasses)' - Darth Yan
User avatar
Shroom Man 777
FUCKING DICK-STABBER!
Posts: 21222
Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
Contact:

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Thank you, Straha.
Image "DO YOU WORSHIP HOMOSEXUALS?" - Curtis Saxton (source)
shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
Pink Sugar Heart Attack!
User avatar
Todeswind
Jedi Knight
Posts: 927
Joined: 2008-09-01 07:16pm

Re: Philosophy students: Moral judgment is worse than murder

Post by Todeswind »

What is the context of that particular picture?
Post Reply