Chuck takes on the Dominion

[Ahriman238]

Chuck is doing a 7 week long look at key episodes of the Domion War. Or maybe just the first few episodes, I'm not terribly sure. Anyways, he's 2 weeks in and I figured it'd be best to just have one thread for the discussions.

Call to Arms

Time to Stand

[Crazedwraith]

Looking at the schedule on the youtube page. He's doing the full 7 episode serial from Call To Arms to Sacrifice Of Angels. And then Waltz.

[Ahriman238]

Looking at the schedule on the youtube page. He's doing the full 7 episode serial from Call To Arms to Sacrifice Of Angels. And then Waltz.

Cool. Well, these were all solid episodes that don't really lend themselves well to mockery, but they'll still be fun to watch.

Jeffery Coombs, the actor who plays Weyoun in DS9 and Shran in Enterprise is probably my favorite recurring Trek actor. I don't even know why, he just really sells every part he plays.

[Batman]

*wrt 7 episodes
He explicitly said so at the beginning of the CTA review.
And incidentally both links lead to CTA.
A time to stand

[Ahriman238]

*wrt 7 episodes
He explicitly said so at the beginning of the CTA review.
And incidentally both links lead to CTA.
A time to stand

Sorry about the double links then. I knew he was doing 7 episodes, I didn't catch whether it would be the first 7 or a scattering thoroughout.

[Ahriman238]

Rocks and Shoals is up.

Good episode, good review.

[Ahriman238]

Behind the Lines is up.

[Cesario]

Ugh. I always hated the story arc with Odo being manipulated by the other changeling. Not because it wasn't well done, but because I couldn't stand to see what was being done to him.

There's a kind of irony in the fact that what happened to Odo here, with his priorities sloshed around with through the Link, foreshadows the entire end of the Dominion war.

[Ahriman238]

Ugh. I always hated the story arc with Odo being manipulated by the other changeling. Not because it wasn't well done, but because I couldn't stand to see what was being done to him.

There's a kind of irony in the fact that what happened to Odo here, with his priorities sloshed around with through the Link, foreshadows the entire end of the Dominion war.

This is one reason I liked Worf on the show. Worf grew up away from the Klingon culture, on earth. But he studied Klingon history, learned the language, tried to be the best Klingon he could be. He built up this idealized version of the Klingon warrior and chased it most of his life.

Now you have a nice contrast with Martok, who did grow up in that culture and has an idea how bad it can be. But there's a subtler connection to Odo, who grew up away from his people in a lab. He never used to know what his people were, or that there was anyone else in the universe like him. He did seem to get that love of order that inspired him to become a cop, and to always try and push security farther than Sisko was comfortable with. He should resent and reject his people, and sort of does, to an extent. But at the same time he's curious, he can't bring himself to push the female changeling away completley.

The people around him not only aren't like him, they're radically unlike him. He's an orange goo that can become whatever shape he wants. They're complex, static and solid beings. The fact that they can even communicate is a modest miracle of science, and due completly to Odos abilities rather than theirs. There is almost no common frame of refrence.

[Ahriman238]

Favor the Bold up!

You know, I rarely worry because some military quotes come from a losing side. But then, I've never had someone quote at me while staring down a vast armada and preparing to charge at them like lunatics.

[Crazedwraith]

Sacrifice Of Angels Review And an Overview of the War Arc as a whole

While Chuck's point about the Prophet's not being a literal dues-ex-machina, as they are well established in the series before now is interesting I can't help but feel it would be better story telling if they had been reference or foreshadowed somewhere in the arc itself to hint at the resolution. Or maybe that would have just made the arc too predictable.

[Skylon]

While Chuck's point about the Prophet's not being a literal dues-ex-machina, as they are well established in the series before now is interesting I can't help but feel it would be better story telling if they had been reference or foreshadowed somewhere in the arc itself to hint at the resolution. Or maybe that would have just made the arc too predictable.

I actually had no problem with the use of the Prophets in this episode when I first watched it. Part of it was because, we had rarely seen them at that point. DS9 harkened back to them a couple of times, but it was the first time since "Emissary" that Sisko went back into the wormhole and ended up talking directly to them. I thought it was a good use of continuity. If the Prophets were ever going to bail out Sisko's ass, this episode was the time.

I hated their usage AFTER this episode, as the whole Prophet vs. Pah-Wraith conflict kicked into high gear following this episode that they became completely over-used and absurd. They also served to make Sisko resemble that other sci-fi Captain on TV around this time, a bit too much (John Sheridan).

[Crazedwraith]

I actually had no problem with the use of the Prophets in this episode when I first watched it. Part of it was because, we had rarely seen them at that point. DS9 harkened back to them a couple of times, but it was the first time since "Emissary" that Sisko went back into the wormhole and ended up talking directly to them. I thought it was a good use of continuity. If the Prophets were ever going to bail out Sisko's ass, this episode was the time.

Not it wasn't. He also did it in Season 4 or 5, when the wormhole spat out a bajoran sailship with a man who claimed he was the emissary on it. Sisko and the other emissary took a runabout into the wormhole to talk to prophets and sort the whole thing out.

That's a nit pick though. Like I said, it was well established in the series but the specific arc might of benefited from some foreshadowing for it.

[Stofsk]

Yeah, if they had hinted at it from the beginning of the arc it would have felt a more satisfying resolution. Say for example, Sisko heading into the wormhole in 'A Call To Arms' and getting nowhere, then months later coming back when things are desperate and basically blackmailing the prophets to act or else he would sacrifice himself in a pointless way.

But I also gotta agree that the way the prophets ended up being used later on in the show was just ridiculous.

[spaceviking]

Despite being ten at the time, I remember being so disappointed that the Profits were the one to stop the dominion. I was really hoping Sicko would take back DS9 and use it to crash into the mouth of the wormhole, as the dominion fleet emerged. It does not make a lot of sense, but I was ten and it would be sweet..

[Skylon]

Not it wasn't. He also did it in Season 4 or 5, when the wormhole spat out a bajoran sailship with a man who claimed he was the emissary on it. Sisko and the other emissary took a runabout into the wormhole to talk to prophets and sort the whole thing out.

You are right. I remembered it as soon as I actually watched Chuck's review and he mentioned it. "Accession", season 4, is the episode. Still, Sisko didn't exactly go back to deal with them on an annual basis. The only other instance of a trip into the wormhole, I remember before SoA, had Quark (of all characters) talking to the Prophets.

[Ahriman238]

I wasn't nearly as disappointed by the involvement of the Prophets as I was by Ziyal getting killed. I always thought she had potential the writers never quite tapped.

[Eframepilot]

I wasn't nearly as disappointed by the involvement of the Prophets as I was by Ziyal getting killed. I always thought she had potential the writers never quite tapped.

I was more disappointed how Dukat, Kira, and Garak all acted like they forgave Damar. What the fuck? Dukat was full bore crazy ("It's okay, Damar. Ben Sisko was the one who really killed her") but Kira had just one line of protest and Garak never mentioned it.

[JME2]

I wasn't nearly as disappointed by the involvement of the Prophets as I was by Ziyal getting killed. I always thought she had potential the writers never quite tapped.

I was more disappointed how Dukat, Kira, and Garak all acted like they forgave Damar. What the fuck? Dukat was full bore crazy ("It's okay, Damar. Ben Sisko was the one who really killed her") but Kira had just one line of protest and Garak never mentioned it.

At that point, Damar was the best hope for ending the Dominion War. As much as Kira and Garak hated it, they had to keep their eye on the larger picture.

IIRC, one of the novels (I think it was a Prophecy and Change) showed Garak's ulterior motives for joying Sisko's envoy was to eventually kill Damar. He changed his mind, though he never forgave Damar.

[Stofsk]

Yeah but that doesn't actually address their criticism. See that whole 'oh shit we gotta turn this war up to ELEVEN' bit came in the middle of season seven, when they began that godawful ten episode or whatever final serial. At that point they went 'well fuck it, the only hope now is if the cardies rebelled' so they gave Damar this lame ass redemption arc when he decides to become a resistance leader.

Of course the writers defended it by going 'welp he kinda felt bad after SoA when you see him getting drunk and how Bashir's genetically engineered buddies determined he had recently killed a woman and still felt bad about it'. But I'm of the opinion that this isn't worth a hill of beans because it was still a lame cop out. It's like how the prophets weren't TECHNICALLY a deus ex machina because the prophets had already been established to exist and could deny passage through the wormhole all the way back at the start. But at the same time, after finishing SoA the question I asked myself was 'well why didn't Sisko just go to the prophets months ago and ask them to deny passage to the Dominion forces instead of mining the crap out of the entrance (which wouldn't work anyway and/or was a stupid idea to begin with).

It's always the writer's fault.

[Thanas]

I don't know if the Cardassian rebellion was so out of left field, considering the Cardies have a massive superiority complex and the Dominion was openly running the show, sacrificing them as cannon fodder and taking over their state.

[JME2]

I don't know if the Cardassian rebellion was so out of left field, considering the Cardies have a massive superiority complex and the Dominion was openly running the show, sacrificing them as cannon fodder and taking over their state.

This is why I love the exchange between Dukat, Weyoun, and Damar in "Call to Arms" just before the attack on DS9:

Damar: First, we reclaim Terok Nor, and then... on to Bajor.

Weyoun: Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Or must I remind you that the Dominion just signed a non-aggression pact with Bajor?

Dukat: The Dominion might've. But I never did.

Weyoun: The Dominion will honor its treaty. And as a member of the Dominion, you will honor it as well.

Dukat: ...Where the Dominion leads, I will follow.

For me, this scene is really the start of the Cardassian revolution. It's so subtle, but it really shows that the Cardassian-Dominion alliance is not an alliance of equals. And for anyone who understands the Cardassian mindset, they can grasp it's not going to end well.

[Tsyroc]

I seem to recall that after the Breen joined the Dominion's side, and proved very useful, the Dominion really did use the Cardassian troops essentially the same way they used their own Jemhadar troops. In a very disposable fashion.

[spaceviking]

Did they ever explain the difference in the relationship between the Cardassians and the Breen. If I recall correctly the Breen seemed to be an ally of the Dominion, while the Cardassians were a member of the dominion. Though who knows what the status of the Breen would have been once the Dominion had total control of the alpha and beta quadrants.

Actually it would have been cool if the dominion had been shown as it was originally intended, as a variety of races making up a totalitarian version of the Federation.

[Coalition]

I'm wondering if one of the Cardassians could have looked at Weyoun and the Founder and said, "their gods are gods," similar to Ten Commandments Pharoah.

Follow that up with Dukat getting the Pah Wraith inside himself, then to the Orb, etc. But instead of closing the wormhole, it burns it open, so the opening looks like Sauron's eye, and allows some Dominion ships through at a time (not the massive fleet, since that has been destroyed). Combine that with side effects of the war in the wormhole for Starfleet morale problems, from the powers involved. This prevents Starfleet from maintaining an effective blockade, while the Jem'Hadar can go through quickly (and the survivors granted a merciful death while the replacement troops are bred).

Sisko then has to go find that other Orb to get reinforcements to the Wormhole, to put the 'balance' back.

At the end, the Prophets possess Sisko while the Wraiths possess Dukat, and they fight it out.

That last part might be a bit silly though.