This will not end well, I'm afraid.The Guardian wrote:Inside Wukan: the Chinese village that fought back
Something extraordinary has happened in the Chinese village of Wukan.
Inside Wukan: the Chinese village that fought back
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Thousands of Wukan's residents gathered for a second day in front of a triple-roofed pagoda that serves as the village hall Photo: MALCOM MOORE
Malcolm Moore
By Malcolm Moore, Wukan
8:30PM GMT 13 Dec 2011
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For the first time on record, the Chinese Communist party has lost all control, with the population of 20,000 in this southern fishing village now in open revolt.
The last of Wukan’s dozen party officials fled on Monday after thousands of people blocked armed police from retaking the village, standing firm against tear gas and water cannons.
Since then, the police have retreated to a roadblock, some three miles away, in order to prevent food and water from entering, and villagers from leaving. Wukan’s fishing fleet, its main source of income, has also been stopped from leaving harbour.
The plan appears to be to lay siege to Wukan and choke a rebellion which began three months ago when an angry mob, incensed at having the village’s land sold off, rampaged through the streets and overturned cars.
Although China suffers an estimated 180,000 “mass incidents” a year, it is unheard of for the Party to sound a retreat.
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But on Tuesday The Daily Telegraph managed to gain access through a tight security cordon and witnessed the new reality in this coastal village.
Thousands of Wukan’s residents, incensed at the death of one of their leaders in police custody, gathered for a second day in front of a triple-roofed pagoda that serves as the village hall.
For five hours they sat on long benches, chanting, punching the air in unison and working themselves into a fury.
At the end of the day, a fifteen minute period of mourning for their fallen villager saw the crowd convulsed in sobs and wailing for revenge against the local government.
“Return the body! Return our brother! Return our farmland! Wukan has been wronged! Blood debt must be paid! Where is justice?” the crowd screamed out.
Wukan’s troubles began in September, when the villagers’ collective patience snapped at an attempt to take away their land and sell it to property developers.
“Almost all of our land has been taken away from us since the 1990s but we were relaxed about it before because we made our money from fishing,” said Yang Semao, one of the village elders. “Now, with inflation rising, we realise we should grow more food and that the land has a high value.”
Thousands of villagers stormed the local government offices, chasing out the party secretary who had governed Wukan for three decades. In response, riot police flooded the village, beating men, women and children indiscriminately, according to the villagers.
In the aftermath, the local government tried to soothe the bruised villagers, asking them to appoint 13 of their own to mediate between the two sides – a move which was praised. But after anger bubbled over again local officials hatched another plan to bring the rebellious village back under control. Last Friday, at 11.45 in the morning, four minibuses without license plates drove into Wukan and a team of men in plain clothes seized five of the village’s 13 representatives from a roadside restaurant.
A second attack came at 4am on Sunday morning, when a thousand armed police approached the entrance to the village.
“We had a team of 20 people watching out, and they saw the police searchlights. We had blocked the road with fallen trees to buy us time,” said Chen Xidong, a 23 year old. “They banged the warning drum and the entire village ran to block the police.”
After a tense two-hour standoff, during which the villagers were hit with tear gas and water cannons, the police retreated, instead setting up the ring of steel around Wukan that is in force today. The village’s only source of food, at present, are the baskets of rice, fruit and vegetables carried across the fields on the shoulder poles of friendly neighbours.
Then, on Monday, came the news that Xue Jinbo, one of the snatched representatives, had died in police custody, at the age of 43, from a heart attack. His family believe he was murdered.
“There were cuts and bruises on the corners of his mouth and on his forehead, and both his nostrils were full of blood,” said Xue Jianwan, his 21-year-old daughter. “His chest was grazed and his thumbs looked like they had been broken backwards. Both his knees were black,” she added. “They refused to release the body to us.”
Mr Xue’s death has galvanised his supporters and brought the explosive situation in the village to the brink. “We are not sleeping. A hundred men are keeping watch. We do not know what the government’s next move will be, but we know we cannot trust them ever again,” said Mr Chen. “I think they will try to prolong the situation, to sweat us out.”
From behind the roadblock, a propaganda war has broken out. Banners slung by the side of the main road to Wukan urge drivers to “Safeguard stability against anarchy – Support the government!” Nearby, someone has scrawled, simply: “Give us back our land.”
The news of Wukan’s loss has been censored inside China. But a blue screen, which interrupts television programmes every few minutes inside the village, insists that the “incidents” are the work of a seditious minority, and have now been calmed. “It is all lies,” said Ms Xue.
Her brother, meanwhile, said life had improved since the first officials were driven out three months ago. “We found we were better at administration. The old officials turned out not to have had any accounts in their office, so they must have been swindling us. And we have a nightwatch now, to keep the village safe. We have all bonded together,” said Xue Jiandi, 19.
With enough food to keep going in the short-term and a pharmacy to tend to the sick, the leaders of Wukan are confident about their situation.
But it is difficult to imagine that it will be long before the Communist Party returns, and there are still four villagers in police custody.
“I have just been to see my 25-year-old son,” Shen Shaorong, the mother of Zhang Jianding, one of the four, said as she cried on her knees. “He has been beaten to a pulp and his clothes were ripped. Please tell the government in Beijing to help us before they kill us all,”
All of China is under controll. All?
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All of China is under controll. All?
No. A small fisher village is resisting.
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
Don't be so sure. There's nothing the Chinese central government loves more than to intervene in local disputes like this and look all benevolent and concerned for the people's welfare.
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
Bullshit. It's going to be Tienanmen square all over again, but larger. If hunger doesn't bring them to their knees the army will be called in, or the air force, and the rebellion put down. Especially now that it's getting international attention, as the very last thing the current rulers of China want to do is "look weak" on the world stage.
It will end in tears and bloodshed.
It will end in tears and bloodshed.
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
There were large lockouts before: factory strikes, for example, sometimes ended with standoffs between the police and workers. Ralin's assessment seems correct to me. Beijing people would want to look good before their own populace and pacify them with the "good Czar, bad boyars" trick.
China won't give two shits about the "international community".
China won't give two shits about the "international community".
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
I think there's a difference between a factory seige and an entire village/city going into open revolt. Particularly if the peasants don't respond "appropriately" to good czar/bad boyar tactics.
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
Broomstick wrote:I think there's a difference between a factory seige and an entire village/city going into open revolt. Particularly if the peasants don't respond "appropriately" to good czar/bad boyar tactics.
I think that bit suggests that the peasants expect and hope for exactly that. That idea being already firmly seated in their mind would make it easier for the central government to calm the situation in exactly that fashion, I imagine.“I have just been to see my 25-year-old son,” Shen Shaorong, the mother of Zhang Jianding, one of the four, said as she cried on her knees. “He has been beaten to a pulp and his clothes were ripped. Please tell the government in Beijing to help us before they kill us all,”
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
Why would the People's Liberation Army get involved in a domestic dispute?Broomstick wrote:Bullshit. It's going to be Tienanmen square all over again, but larger. If hunger doesn't bring them to their knees the army will be called in, or the air force, and the rebellion put down.
The Peoples Armed Police (PAP) will handle this. No tanks running over people involved. There may be water cannoning however.
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
There's already been tear gas and water cannons used. Apparently, the village stood firm against them. They may be soggy with bloodshot eyes, but apparently they're still standing their ground.
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
Look, Broomstick, a lot of people don't realize this but this sort of thing is actually pretty common in China, though granted this is on the extreme side. As the article says there are a lot of "incidents," i.e., riots and minor uprisings, every year. There is a gulf between local and central government and the latter usually is willing to back down and make concessions if the locals have a reasonable grievance.
Tiananmen happened for a lot of reasons, including the fact that the students effectively forced the government's hand. Those factors aren't present here and I'd be very surprised if this turns into a massacre.
Tiananmen happened for a lot of reasons, including the fact that the students effectively forced the government's hand. Those factors aren't present here and I'd be very surprised if this turns into a massacre.
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
Also that the protestors were on the central government's doorstop, challenging it directly.
Many tyrannies keep themselves in power with the tactic of "good czar, bad boyars;" I suspect that all smart, long-lived ones do. But that doesn't mean they'll react decently and without bloodshed when someone challenges the 'czar' of the system directly, rather than focusing their hostility on the local government.
Many tyrannies keep themselves in power with the tactic of "good czar, bad boyars;" I suspect that all smart, long-lived ones do. But that doesn't mean they'll react decently and without bloodshed when someone challenges the 'czar' of the system directly, rather than focusing their hostility on the local government.
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
And how, exactly, did the students "force the government's hand"? Wasn't it by simply not going away? By being on the government's doorstep? By attracting outside attention?
Yes, uprisings are common all over China. Maybe I'm just disgusted at the knee-jerk reaction of "if they know how it was here back in Beijing they'd do something about it." Fact is, Beijing doesn't give a fuck about Wukan, except how it personally might affect them. If it's useful to Beijing to mow them under Beijing will. Sooner or later, that's what will happen, if not Wukan then somewhere else.
Maybe what I see as a significant difference - an entire village in rebellion - isn't different from a factory strike. In which case, someone explain to me why an entire village in rebellion is identical to 500 or 1000 workers having a sit-down strike in a factory.
Yes, uprisings are common all over China. Maybe I'm just disgusted at the knee-jerk reaction of "if they know how it was here back in Beijing they'd do something about it." Fact is, Beijing doesn't give a fuck about Wukan, except how it personally might affect them. If it's useful to Beijing to mow them under Beijing will. Sooner or later, that's what will happen, if not Wukan then somewhere else.
Maybe what I see as a significant difference - an entire village in rebellion - isn't different from a factory strike. In which case, someone explain to me why an entire village in rebellion is identical to 500 or 1000 workers having a sit-down strike in a factory.
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If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
Exactly.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's tragic that Tiananmen had to happen, because there were real grievances to be had, but they were embarrassing China in front of the entire world and they refused to dispurse when they were told to. Negotiating after that would have sent the message that protesting works and that you should do it if you want to further your cause. What the government did sends the message that "We will kill you if you defy us." One of these messages is conducive to the survival of the CCP regime. And China would not be better off today if its Communist Party had gone the way of the Russian Communist Party.
And if something like Tiananmen ever happens in the US, our government will do much the same thing. Count on it.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's tragic that Tiananmen had to happen, because there were real grievances to be had, but they were embarrassing China in front of the entire world and they refused to dispurse when they were told to. Negotiating after that would have sent the message that protesting works and that you should do it if you want to further your cause. What the government did sends the message that "We will kill you if you defy us." One of these messages is conducive to the survival of the CCP regime. And China would not be better off today if its Communist Party had gone the way of the Russian Communist Party.
And if something like Tiananmen ever happens in the US, our government will do much the same thing. Count on it.
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
Two words: Bonus Marchers.
btw 'Good Tsar/Bad Boyars' = brilliant.
btw 'Good Tsar/Bad Boyars' = brilliant.
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
Oh? And didn't someone earlier say China didn't give a shit about what the rest of the world thought? If that's the case, how could China be "embarrassed"?Ralin wrote:Don't get me wrong, I think it's tragic that Tiananmen had to happen, because there were real grievances to be had, but they were embarrassing China in front of the entire world and they refused to dispurse when they were told to.
So....why wouldn't they consider turning Wukan into a parking lot if they get to uppity?What the government did sends the message that "We will kill you if you defy us."
As I said - if hunger doesn't work, what else will China do? They hope to starve them into submission, but if that doesn't work then the Tienanmen "solution" starts to look likely.
No, our government will just marginalize it into non-existence, rather like the Occupy Wall Street movement.And if something like Tiananmen ever happens in the US, our government will do much the same thing. Count on it.
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Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
Ask Stas, he's the one who said it.Broomstick wrote:Oh? And didn't someone earlier say China didn't give a shit about what the rest of the world thought? If that's the case, how could China be "embarrassed"?
Well, I suspect that what will happen is that the government will quietly give the villagers their land back.So....why wouldn't they consider turning Wukan into a parking lot if they get to uppity?
As I said - if hunger doesn't work, what else will China do? They hope to starve them into submission, but if that doesn't work then the Tienanmen "solution" starts to look likely.
Not nearly as big in impact, and they've already started sending in police to break it up.No, our government will just marginalize it into non-existence, rather like the Occupy Wall Street movement.
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
Meh, the police response to OWS is variable depending on location, it's clearly not being centrally dictated. The Bonus Marchers example given earlier is really a much better US example.
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
Bonus Marchers or Hunger Marchers work well enough. Though, like I said, clashes happened before and will happen more and more as the Chinese traditional village is destroyed to make way for the demands of the city's hungry industries.
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
As Kanastrous pointed out, such a thing already happened. It was called the Bonus Marches.Ralin wrote: And if something like Tiananmen ever happens in the US, our government will do much the same thing. Count on it.
At 4:45 p.m., commanded by Gen. Douglas MacArthur, the 12th Infantry Regiment, Fort Howard, Maryland, and the 3rd Cavalry Regiment, supported by six battle tanks commanded by Maj. George S. Patton, formed in Pennsylvania Avenue while thousands of civil service employees left work to line the street and watch. The Bonus Marchers, believing the troops were marching in their honor, cheered the troops until Patton ordered the cavalry to charge them—an action which prompted the spectators to yell, "Shame! Shame!"
Shacks that members of the Bonus Army erected on the Anacostia Flats burning after the confrontation with the military.
After the cavalry charged, the infantry, with fixed bayonets and adamsite gas, an arsenical vomiting agent, entered the camps, evicting veterans, families, and camp followers. The veterans fled across the Anacostia River to their largest camp and President Hoover ordered the assault stopped. However Gen. MacArthur, feeling the Bonus March was a Communist attempt to overthrow the U.S. government, ignored the President and ordered a new attack. Fifty-five veterans were injured and 135 arrested.[10] A veteran's wife miscarried. When 12-week-old Bernard Myers died in the hospital after being caught in the tear gas attack, a government investigation reported he died of enteritis, while a hospital spokesman said the tear gas "didn't do it any good."[14]
During the military operation, Major Dwight D. Eisenhower, later President of the United States, served as one of MacArthur's junior aides.[15] Believing it wrong for the Army's highest-ranking officer to lead an action against fellow American war veterans, he strongly advised MacArthur against taking any public role: "I told that dumb son-of-a-bitch not to go down there," he said later. "I told him it was no place for the Chief of Staff."[16] Despite his misgivings, Eisenhower later wrote the Army's official incident report which endorsed MacArthur's conduct.[17]
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
Or, if you want to talk about events similar to the incident in the OP, there is the Battle of Blair Mountain, where some 15000 coal miners tried to unionize. US Army bombers dropped bombs and poison gas on them, then sent the survivors to jail for treason.
They were freedomized.
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They were freedomized.
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
OK, we went from China oppressing the peasants to the US oppressing the peasants. Nowhere did I say the US was in any way nice to uppity serfs.
So, acknowledging that all nations have the capacity for evil, what does everyone think the outcome will be? The peasants giving in after a few hungry weeks and maybe a little more water cannon and tear gas, or Beijing mowing them under, or a "Chinese Winter" to go with the "Arab Spring"?
So, acknowledging that all nations have the capacity for evil, what does everyone think the outcome will be? The peasants giving in after a few hungry weeks and maybe a little more water cannon and tear gas, or Beijing mowing them under, or a "Chinese Winter" to go with the "Arab Spring"?
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
Broomstick wrote:OK, we went from China oppressing the peasants to the US oppressing the peasants. Nowhere did I say the US was in any way nice to uppity serfs.
So, acknowledging that all nations have the capacity for evil, what does everyone think the outcome will be? The peasants giving in after a few hungry weeks and maybe a little more water cannon and tear gas, or Beijing mowing them under, or a "Chinese Winter" to go with the "Arab Spring"?
This. The central government will step in and save the day again.“I have just been to see my 25-year-old son,” Shen Shaorong, the mother of Zhang Jianding, one of the four, said as she cried on her knees. “He has been beaten to a pulp and his clothes were ripped. Please tell the government in Beijing to help us before they kill us all,”
Have a very nice day.
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
Well, since China is nominally a Communist nation, with a Communist leadership, and further presupposing that under a Communist regime that there is no private ownership of property, wouldn't it follow that the villagers of Wukan do NOT have a right to their land?
If nominally, the State owns all means of production including land, it would be the State's prerogative to manage and dispose of said land as its leadership wished. The proletariat have no say. So, logically following, this will not end well for the villagers of Wukan if the Communist Party desires to hold sway over their land.
NOTE: I'm not saying I agree with the sale of Wukan's land by the Communist Party. I"m playing Devil's advocate.
If nominally, the State owns all means of production including land, it would be the State's prerogative to manage and dispose of said land as its leadership wished. The proletariat have no say. So, logically following, this will not end well for the villagers of Wukan if the Communist Party desires to hold sway over their land.
NOTE: I'm not saying I agree with the sale of Wukan's land by the Communist Party. I"m playing Devil's advocate.
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Lord Monckton is my heeerrooo
"Yeah, well, fuck them. I never said I liked the Moros." - Shroom Man 777
Re: All of China is under controll. All?
Just a small point of order: Overall casualties at Blair Mountain were around 200, and only a thousand were arrested. The unions were still effectively broken, but it's probably not quite as bloody as Tianamen was and many of the arrested miners were acquitted anyway.fgalkin wrote:Or, if you want to talk about events similar to the incident in the OP, there is the Battle of Blair Mountain, where some 15000 coal miners tried to unionize. US Army bombers dropped bombs and poison gas on them, then sent the survivors to jail for treason.
They were freedomized.
Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
I suspect that the Chinese central government may actually fold on this issue however. The fundamental issue in this case isn't "regime change", it's the corruption of certain local officials. Call me optimistic.
Chocula->
Pretty much everyone knows China's economy is communist in name only, and property rights now do exist. Heck, property rights in some form have existed in virtually all communist countries in some form of another - Cuba for instance recently formally recognized people's right to buy and sell land.
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
Isn't throwing the 'corrupt local officials' to the wolves (well, the firing squad) been the way this kind of event is characteristically handled, by the central Chinese government?
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Re: All of China is under controll. All?
Yep. While this isn't a local case...Kanastrous wrote:Isn't throwing the 'corrupt local officials' to the wolves (well, the firing squad) been the way this kind of event is characteristically handled, by the central Chinese government?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8375638.stm
China has sent officials to face the firing squad over corruption before. I honestly feel that the current Chinese regime is honestly trying to portray itself as being willing to crack down on corruption, as opposed to simply sending in the tanks to suppress any dissent. They still remember the international condemnation (and the downturn in trade) that followed Tianemen.