Atheism requires Faith?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-05 03:57pm

RedImperator wrote:
Wicked Pilot wrote:By extension, you must also have faith to believe there is no fire breathing dragon living in my garage.
I'm a strong adraco. I belive you're full of shit when you say there's a fire breathing dragon in your garage. A weak adraco, on the other hand, would only say that there's no evidence that there's a fire breathing dragon in your garage, and therefore he doesn't believe you have one.

You just don't want to accept the existence of the fire-breathing dragon.

Captain Jack · Post by **Captain Jack** » 2003-03-05 04:04pm

I believe is Wicked Pilot's dragon

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-03-05 05:00pm

Durandal wrote: The strong atheist is just taking his disbelief to the logical extension of, "There's no evidence for them, therefore, they are not there." This is no different from saying that there is no evidence that there are invisible, intangible aliens observing us every second of every day, therefore they do not exist.

Do you believe extra-terrestrial life exists? Without evidence, you would be justified in saying no.

But what if you were sure that life exists only on Earth? Is that a logical extension?

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-03-05 05:04pm

Darth Wong wrote:Is it a religion not to believe in Santa Claus? Should we call people who don't believe in Santa Claus asantas? If you're an asanta, are you a strong asanta (ie- you believe there is no Santa) or a weak Asanta (ie- you just don't hold a belief in Santa)? Does it take just as much faith to deny Santa's existence as to believe in it?

I would say that it is logical to be a "strong ASanta" because the defined characteristics of Santa can be scientifically disproven.

By the same token, you could deny the existence of the Christian god based on the logical inconsistencies in his description.

But would it not be a leap of faith to say there is nothing in the universe that could fit the description of a god? I suppose that depends on how you define a god.

Cap'n Hector · Post by **Cap'n Hector** » 2003-03-05 05:37pm

Depending on my mood, I'm either an athiest or believe that I'm the one true God. This mood is determined by which annoys the other person more...

I've never seen the "faith" argument of atheism as valid for any atheist. It goes back to "Reality is what doesn't go away when you stop believing in it."

By the same token, you can have "faith" in science, and "believe" what science tells you "without proof". That does assume, however, that science doesn't provide proof.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-05 05:40pm

Ted C wrote:
Durandal wrote: The strong atheist is just taking his disbelief to the logical extension of, "There's no evidence for them, therefore, they are not there." This is no different from saying that there is no evidence that there are invisible, intangible aliens observing us every second of every day, therefore they do not exist.
Do you believe extra-terrestrial life exists? Without evidence, you would be justified in saying no.

But what if you were sure that life exists only on Earth? Is that a logical extension?

Sheer statistical probability would prove you wrong. It's a very big universe.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-05 05:47pm

Ted C wrote:But would it not be a leap of faith to say there is nothing in the universe that could fit the description of a god? I suppose that depends on how you define a god.

Precisely. Define God, and then I can tell you whether there's any reason to believe it exists. A proper definition would be one that allows some kind of testable predictions to be generated.

And therein lies the problem: how can one say something exists, or accuse anyone of being irrational for thinking it does NOT exist, if it is not defined? The definition of an entity is an absolute prerequisite for even CONSIDERING its existence.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-03-05 05:59pm

RedImperator wrote:I'm a strong adraco. I belive you're full of shit when you say there's a fire breathing dragon in your garage.

You won't be such hot shit when my dragon eats you!

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2003-03-05 06:44pm

We need a couple of fundies to slap around.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-03-05 07:37pm

Darth Wong wrote: And therein lies the problem: how can one say something exists, or accuse anyone of being irrational for thinking it does NOT exist, if it is not defined? The definition of an entity is an absolute prerequisite for even CONSIDERING its existence.

So is it rational to believe something cannot exist without even defining it? The Christian God has a definition that I can refute, but the nebulous term "god" has no such definition.

If someone believes "there are no gods" without even defining them, is that not just as irrational as belief in any particular god?

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-03-05 08:04pm

ArmorPierce wrote:We need a couple of fundies to slap around.

Wicked Pilot can be a fundamentalist Draco.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-03-05 08:05pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:
RedImperator wrote:I'm a strong adraco. I belive you're full of shit when you say there's a fire breathing dragon in your garage.
You won't be such hot shit when my dragon eats you!

I have something YOU can eat, fundie.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-05 08:27pm

Ted C wrote:So is it rational to believe something cannot exist without even defining it?

It is rational to say something cannot possibly exist if it is not defined. Think about it; how can it exist if you can't even say what it is? Existence is not a fucking DEFAULT condition, you know.

The Christian God has a definition that I can refute, but the nebulous term "god" has no such definition.

Which is why it does not even exist as a CONCEPT until it is defined, never mind existing as something more.

If someone believes "there are no gods" without even defining them, is that not just as irrational as belief in any particular god?

That is the fucking dumbest thing I've heard all day. How can something possibly exist if the very CONCEPT does not even exist, because it hasn't been defined yet?

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-05 08:42pm

"God" is more of an idea than a physical entity. If he/she/it exists in your mind, and whatever collective you belong to supports the same version, it exists at least as an idea...right?

I think it's not that fundies do the things they do for God, God does what they want to do. It justifys their actions/ideals. So what better way than to have the Almighty justify your actions/ideals FOR you, instead of admitting you're a prick?

In a way, I've known teenybopper Atheists that rely more on their "faith" that a higher power doesn't exist than actually bothering to look it up and decide for themselves.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-05 09:39pm

UltraViolence83 wrote:"God" is more of an idea than a physical entity. If he/she/it exists in your mind, and whatever collective you belong to supports the same version, it exists at least as an idea...right?

I think it's not that fundies do the things they do for God, God does what they want to do. It justifys their actions/ideals. So what better way than to have the Almighty justify your actions/ideals FOR you, instead of admitting you're a prick?

Spin-doctoring. The Bible vindicates their behavior. Yes, they're at fault themselves, but the religion isn't blameless.

In a way, I've known teenybopper Atheists that rely more on their "faith" that a higher power doesn't exist than actually bothering to look it up and decide for themselves.

It doesn't exactly take a lot of study to come to the conclusion that God is a fairy tale. You could just ask, "Where is he, then?"

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-03-05 09:55pm

RedImperator wrote:Wicked Pilot can be a fundamentalist Draco.

Did I mention that my dragon created the universe and everyting in it via a flaming fart six days ago?

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2003-03-05 10:01pm

Wicked Pilot wrote: Did I mention that my dragon created the universe and everyting in it via a flaming fart six days ago?

Blasphemy! You know that the giant farting beetle created the world after scarfing down on day old cheese!

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-03-05 10:50pm

VF5SS wrote:Blasphemy! You know that the giant farting beetle created the world after scarfing down on day old cheese!

But how can there be day old cheese before the Great Fart?

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-05 10:58pm

[Theologist Wannabe]The dragon vomited the cheese a day before, then the beetle ate it. This satisfys the "day old" statment.[/Theologist Wannabe]

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-03-05 11:08pm

UltraViolence83 wrote:[Theologist Wannabe]The dragon vomited the cheese a day before, then the beetle ate it. This satisfys the "day old" statment.[/Theologist Wannabe]

But how can there have been cheese before the world?

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-05 11:10pm

neoolong wrote:But how can there have been cheese before the world?

Um...Uh...HERETIC!

*Readys the burning post*

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-03-05 11:48pm

neoolong wrote:But how can there have been cheese before the world?

I can't hear you. La La La La La La La La La.....

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-03-05 11:57pm

Ha ha. I broke your religion.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-06 12:44am

Don't be silly. I'll simply tiptoe around the subject.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-03-06 10:00am

Darth Wong wrote: That is the fucking dumbest thing I've heard all day. How can something possibly exist if the very CONCEPT does not even exist, because it hasn't been defined yet?

OK, I think it's time to stop baiting Mike.